Lotus- so a revised recommendation for PM would be to stay at low doses? I'm just starting out and taking 500mg per day. Should I plan on seeing the effect for...say 30 days and assess?

Previous info made me think I should be ramping up to 2,000mg per day as my body got used to it. But reading the article, I'm thinking that lower dose will be the way to go.

Thoughts?

Here is my take on it Tiffany. I started out on Flat 2 Fem program. That is the program that really pushes SP, FG and RC.. Even she recommends to only use what is needed to feel and see results due to seen and un seen complications of the herbs in use. If I remember right, she suggested not to ramp up until after 30 days of no progress or feelings of growth.

We all know, that research into what we are using all of these Herbs is very sparse if at all. As I said, for 18 months it was Flat 2 Fem only. The plateau I hit lasted for over 3 months even with me increasing the doses of many if not all of the basic herbs. But since I have started to use PM and PC, I have gained about 1/2 to 3/4 cup size in like 3 months.

I have sort of cycled it going from 500mg to spiking at 2000mg for like only 2 days at a time. My normal dose rate of PM is around 1000 to 1200mg a day using the equivalent of extract. I usually take a week to 10 day break off of it, per month then repeat. But, it has worked really good for me, it may not have the same effect for other's.

Just thought I would chime in. Take it for what it's worth.

When I last used PM, some years ago, I was on 2000mg per day. When I had my blood tested prior to stopping PM and going onto Estradiol my tests showed nothing estrogenic, but my SHBG levels were very high.

SHBG is a hormone that mops up sex hormones and takes most of them out of circulation. My endo told me that my SHBG was responded to the herbal estrogen and removing all of it that my body was not using. In short, if it did not bind to the estrogen receptors then SHBG mopped it up and broke it into metabolites for excretion. SHBG mops up DHT then T then E.

There really is no point in overdosing on this stuff because your body will not use the excess. The old advice of "stop ramping up the dose when you start getting results" is the best advice.

Estradiol E2 ß has a half-life in circulation of 17 hours. Testostoreone has a half life of 43 minutes. I do not know what the half life of PM in circulation is but it is probably similar to E2 as it is an E2-like compound (thus why it works).

JJ-

I hate to break it to everyone but the lower dose is the one that provides the most results, and the higher doses actually increase the anti-estrogenic response.

See this study:

Differential Binding with ERa and ERb of Phytoestrogens rich plant Pueraria Mirifca
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2009007500026&script=sci_arttext&tlng=pt#Fig2


Higher dosages just turns out to be a placebo effect.

Now if that’s true talk about 31 flavors of crazy… look at the irony- take more = lowered results and taking lower = more development. Too funny.

Now b, that makes some sense to me. I wondered why I was doing, sometimes better, than other peeps taking like 3 - 4 x more than me and still stalling. I am also of the belief, that when you get to a certain point, your body will start to reprogram on it own and thus the herbs get more effective.

JJ-

I hate to break it to everyone but the lower dose is the one that provides the most results, and the higher doses actually increase the anti-estrogenic response.

See this study:

Differential Binding with ERa and ERb of Phytoestrogens rich plant Pueraria Mirifca
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2009007500026&script=sci_arttext&tlng=pt#Fig2


Higher dosages just turns out to be a placebo effect.

Now if that’s true talk about 31 flavors of crazy… look at the irony- take more = lowered results and taking lower = more development. Too funny.

No, that's just the facts.

Lotus- so a revised recommendation for PM would be to stay at low doses? I'm just starting out and taking 500mg per day. Should I plan on seeing the effect for...say 30 days and assess?

Previous info made me think I should be ramping up to 2,000mg per day as my body got used to it. But reading the article, I'm thinking that lower dose will be the way to go.

Thoughts?

It's hard to predict the individual response when considering metabolism, everyone's different. The question is (or should be) if taking high dose's work, where's the proof it does?, show the pics of a C or D cup on 2500+ mg of PM, or for that matter HRT. There might be a few, but compared to the majority??, the science already knows it's not possible, maybe it's time we should start to listen to it.

Why increasing the dosage doesn't always work

Negative feedback occurs when the result of a process influences the operation of the process itself in such a way as to reduce changes. Feedback can produce stability and reduce the effect of fluctuations. Negative feedback loops in which just the right amount of correction is applied in the most timely manner can be very stable, accurate, and responsive.

Negative feedback loops have been compared to a thermostatically controlled temperature in a house, where the internal temperature is monitored by a temperature-sensitive gauge in the thermostat. If it is cold outside, eventually the internal temperature of the house drops, as cold air seeps in through the walls. When the temperature drops below the point at which the thermostat is set, the thermostat turns on the furnace. As the temperature within the house rises, the thermostat again senses this change and turns off the furnace when the internal temperature reaches the pre-set point.

Negative feedback loops require a receptor, a control center, and an effector. A receptor is the structure that monitors internal conditions. For instance, the human body has receptors in the blood vessels that monitor the pH of the blood. The blood vessels contain receptors that measure the resistance of blood flow against the vessel walls, thus monitoring blood pressure. Receptors sense changes in function and initiate the body's homeostatic response.

Read more: Homeostasis - Negative feedback - Body, Blood, Internal, and Conditions - JRank Articles http://science.jrank.org/pages/3365/Homeostasis.html#ixzz34AWy8WWP

____________________________________________________________

Cycling is important when taking supplements, failure to do so will result with tolerance, and the supplements will stop working.

Once your body makes the adjustments to get back to homeostasis is the time to cycle, (ie. in a 7 day plan, try 5 days on and 2 days off).


Tolerance occurs when the person no longer responds to the drug in the way that person initially responded. Stated another way, it takes a higher dose of the drug to achieve the same level of response achieved initially, and then cycle begins to try and recreate that initial response, and good luck cause it won't work.

My apologies JJ for the temporary hijack:

Why improving receptor sensitivity is important for NBE,


Regulation of hormone receptors is very important for a normal functioning cell. There are several ways a cell regulates its hormone receptors. Below is an outline of such regulatory functions:

Regulating the expression of receptors - changing the number of receptors on the plasma membrane.
1. Up regulation - increasing the number of receptors
2. Down regulation - decreasing the number of receptors

Mechanism:
-internalization - endocytosis of receptors
-modify transcription - inhibiting or stimulating transcription factors
-modify receptor half-life - adding groups to the receptors which will degrade them faster


Downregulation is the process by which a cell decreases the quantity of a cellular component, such as RNA or protein, in response to an external variable. An increase of a cellular component is called upregulation.

An example of downregulation is the cellular decrease in the number of receptors to a molecule, such as a hormone or neurotransmitter, which reduces the cell's sensitivity to the molecule. This phenomenon is an example of a locally acting negative feedback mechanism.

An example of upregulation is the increased number of cytochrome P450 enzymes in liver cells when xenobiotic molecules such as dioxin are administered (resulting in greater degradation of these molecules).

Most receptor agonists downregulate their respective receptor(s), while most receptor antagonists upregulate their respective receptor(s). The disequilibrium caused by these changes often causes withdrawal when the long-term use of a medication or drug is discontinued. However, the chronic use of certain receptor antagonists may also damage receptors faster than they upregulate.

Upregulation and downregulation can also happen as a response to toxins or hormones. An example of upregulation in pregnancy is hormones that cause cells in the uterus to become more sensitive to oxytocin.

An agonist is a chemical that binds to a receptor and activates the receptor to produce a biological response. Whereas an agonist causes an action, an antagonist blocks the action of the agonist and an inverse agonist causes an action opposite to that of the agonist.





Downregulation and upregulation
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Downregulation_and_upregulation

Any questions?,

Question- what triggers tissue growth in order for NBE to work?

>> My apologies JJ for the temporary hijack:

NP Lotus, you're a wiazrd at this and I always love to see your posts.

Besides, this was intended as a low-dose thread anyway so it is all quite germain to the topic.


Cycling wise, I started with a varying combination of Soy Isoflavones, SP, and Spearmint.

I didn't like how those felt in my system, so now its PM, Pumkin Seed, Green Tea. Blending lower levels of differant phytoestrogens seems to increase effect too. Plus green tea has other effects too. (Caffiene, weight loss)

There was also a period when I used 2-3 galactophages at once, that seemed to have results, and increased sensitivity! (Pumpkin Seed, Frunengeek, Blessed Thistle) I need to do that again...


- Jaded (is eating too much chocolate) Jade

Lotus- so a revised recommendation for PM would be to stay at low doses? I'm just starting out and taking 500mg per day. Should I plan on seeing the effect for...say 30 days and assess?

Previous info made me think I should be ramping up to 2,000mg per day as my body got used to it. But reading the article, I'm thinking that lower dose will be the way to go.

Thoughts?

Here's my 2 cents...and mind you I'm no expert like many on here.

My first experience with PM I ramped up to about 2500 per day. So excited the day I noted breast buds forming. Downside is that combined with other items (spearmint, licorice, SP) sexual function was greatly decreased as well as desire. So I took a break...

Restarted PM, this time with only Spearmint and some occasional SP pills. Breasts in my opinion are continuing to develop nicely with no noticeable loss of function. Ironically I'm only taking 1000-1500 PM daily, and some days none at all.

So yes, I agree with Lotus that higher amounts are not necessarily needed. I also pretty certain that the directions on the bottle state take one pill twice daily, so at a minimum I would ramp to that. But as many others have stated, everyone is different and results may vary....

Most bio males on this board thinks that because they are male, that automatically means they have to triple or quad the amount in order to match up with our sister's.

I just think a lot of times, that's a waste and could even be a danger.

I usually stick at about 1000, to maybe 1500mg on occasion. I know when my body is telling me to "Whoa, there buddy.". I think an occasionally spike is good to get things on track again, but smaller with good results is better than all the time mega doses. For one thing, the excess that your body cant use goes literally down the toilet in one form or another. And secondly, it stresses your liver, pancreas and quite possibly heart and kidney's.... So why take the chance????