[bryony]

I came across this article today (link below) and I think it pretty much sums up how I know my wife would feel if I were disposed to take the plunge.

After 39 years, I'm pretty confident that I know her well enough to be certain of that.

What amazes me is the way the husband described is so insensitive to her feelings.

I am extremely sensitive to my wife's demeanour. Either she is really bad at hiding her thoughts, or I am very good at reading her like a book. I could never subject her to this kind of suffering.

Evidently there are lots of supportive wives around, but I wonder how many of them do feel the way this woman does and just hide it.

Salon article


B.

[flamesabers]

I have very mixed feelings about the article. On the one hand I think the author has very good reason to feel deceived and betrayed. On the other hand she strikes me as being very insecure with her own femininity. I get the impression she fears that she's going to be replaced by her transgender husband as the 'woman' in the relationship. In her situation I think she has two choices: leave her husband if this is too overwhelming for her, or come to accept the situation and make the best of it. I can't help but wonder if she might find a little solace by making a decision rather than languishing between what to do or what not to do. Maybe I'm wrong, but I sense it's almost as if she wishes her husband would give up transitioning and go back to acting like the husband she knew for 21 years. Perhaps that is way she doesn't want to make the hard decision of choosing between those two difficult choices?

Bryony,

I'm not sure how women could hide such profound feelings in the long-term. Sooner or later, I suspect such feelings will come out either gradually or in one big explosion.

[bryony]

I have very mixed feelings about the article. On the one hand I think the author has very good reason to feel deceived and betrayed. On the other hand she strikes me as being very insecure with her own femininity.

Hmm... I don't really see those as being alternative "hands"... they are different issues.. .. and we aren't in a position to consider whether her insecurity was extant or caused by her situation.

I feel grateful that I warned my wife about what I thought was a transvestism fetish before we got married... at least that is some kind of warning - but this poor woman got a bolt from the blue.

"I was shocked. I never knew he’d questioned his gender."

That's got to rock anyone's confidence.

I get the impression she fears that she's going to be replaced by her transgender husband as the 'woman' in the relationship. In her situation I think she has two choices: leave her husband if this is too overwhelming for her, or come to accept the situation and make the best of it.

Either of which destroys her life as she know it. Seems a bit harsh. I see men like her husband as analogous to any other typical male facing a mid-life crisis:
In "normal" males, they go out and have affairs with other women who thrill them in a way that their wives no longer are able to. In this instance this man is selfishly pursuing his own desires and disregarding his wife's pain and suffering.

You see, I think that society is so used to couples splitting up and divorcing over relatively trivial issues, especially the "celebrity" crowd, that they don't care a jot over something as serious as this.

To this woman, her husband has died.... yet he is walking around as someone else entirely.

I find it absolutely astounding that these people who proclaim to the world that they are women are unable to feel any empathy for the women who have been with them for decades seeing their worlds fall apart.

The thing is that late-stage transitioners are almost always totally uninterested in men. They are so consumed with self-loathing of their own maleness that they cannot understand that that is the very thing that attracted their wives to them in the first place! Far from being the "real women" that they say they are, not being sexually attracted to men totally removes them from their wives in every respect: they may be able to share fashion tips but could they have a sensible discussion of why, for example, picking names at random, Hugh Jackman is more or less attractive than Johnny Depp?

Here's the kicker... a thought experiment that I always like to employ when I want to see things from a woman's perspective: Suppose a heterosexual man with no interest in women had a truly beautiful wife, whom he loved to distraction.

One day she discloses over breakfast that she always wished she had been born a boy, and that she had been prescribed testosterone. However she still loved him, and hoped that her voice breaking, beard growth, male pattern baldness (her father was bald) and phalloplasty wouldn't put an end to their relationship, and that she was looking forward to him fellating her later and allowing her to take him from behind, as she had always fantasized.

Think that one through for a while, and maybe you will see it from her perspective.

I can't help but wonder if she might find a little solace by making a decision rather than languishing between what to do or what not to do. Maybe I'm wrong, but I sense it's almost as if she wishes her husband would give up transitioning and go back to acting like the husband she knew for 21 years. Perhaps that is way she doesn't want to make the hard decision of choosing between those two difficult choices?

Of course she would want that! And if her husband had an ounce of empathy, he would see what he was doing to her and stop. It's not like he's under a compulsion. He just wants what he wants and that's all that he wants.

There is nothing to stop him getting estrogen to help the mental problems that cause him the most distress and continue to present as a male to avoid his wife's distress. This presupposes that he actually loves her, which I am convinced he does not - not as I understand love, anyway. I know for a fact it is possible. Before I took up PM, the compulsion to dress was irresistible, along with pornography and compulsive "self abuse". Now I have none of those problems.
The anxiety is gone, and the constant depression is now a dull ache for a desire that can never be satisfied... whatever I tried to do about it.

Bryony,

I'm not sure how women could hide such profound feelings in the long-term. Sooner or later, I suspect such feelings will come out either gradually or in one big explosion.

You'd be surprised what cis-females are willing to put up with to save a relationship. Think about the ones who do not report physical abuse, for a start. Sure, a good percentage are too scared to do anything about it, but others don't want to break up and are prepared to deal with the odd beating. It's even built into the muslim culture! Google Islam how to beat your wife sometime.

B.

[flamesabers]

Bryony,

Yes, I agree the FtM wife is the mirror opposite of the MtF husband. I've even used this analogy before to discourage others from trying to pursue NBE without disclosing it to their significant other. I think a limitation with this article is it doesn't tell the story from the husband's perspective. Perhaps he has a very different view, and if he wrote an article if may be him who is portrayed in a more favorable light. My point is the pressure to transition can be very difficult on both parties, not just the spouse.

Your suggestion of the husband taking estrogen but still presenting as a male is an interesting one. It's probably the closest thing to a compromise I suppose, but I suspect it may still be enough to upset the wife. I tend to think this this type of path may be more obvious to you and I because we fall in the 'androgynous' camp. For those who transitioned, it may be that continuing to present as male is condemnation rather than compromise.

I'm a little surprised nobody else has responded to this thread yet.

[bryony]

Bryony,

Yes, I agree the FtM wife is the mirror opposite of the MtF husband. I've even used this analogy before to discourage others from trying to pursue NBE without disclosing it to their significant other. I think a limitation with this article is it doesn't tell the story from the husband's perspective.

Hi Flame,

I agree, the article is likely tailored; however, unless it is a tissue of lies, which we cannot assume, we have the fact that he hid his persona from his wife for a long time, as the kids had left home, so middle-aged - late middle age. That's a lot of deceit. At the very least, his guilt should have caused him to wait for her to agree with it. He appears to be treating her as a possession, or a secondary in the relationship who has to just "deal with it". Selfish, in fact.

Perhaps he has a very different view, and if he wrote an article if may be him who is portrayed in a more favorable light. My point is the pressure to transition can be very difficult on both parties, not just the spouse.

Undoubtedly - but again, in secret, this person has been making plans, and has been familiar with his condition all of his life. To just break the news and carry on displays a lack of sensitivity, caring, love etc.

Your suggestion of the husband taking estrogen but still presenting as a male is an interesting one. It's probably the closest thing to a compromise I suppose, but I suspect it may still be enough to upset the wife.

Well, it's what we (my wife and I) do. I've always believed that compromise is the basis of a healthy relationship. My wife agreed to my taking PM because, frankly, she didn't believe herbs would work. I got the mental benefits first, and she could see how much good it was doing for me, and when the breasts started to grow, she was quite dismayed. However, I told her that whatever happened would be with her consent, and I would tell no one without her permission, even our kids. She was adamant that I should continue to present as a male, and as I've explained elsewhere, at my time of life the game wouldn't be worth the candle.

Now, you could say that maybe I didn't / don't suffer from my GD as much as others so that's why I won't take the plunge. That's impossible to prove or disprove - I only know that I could not go back to life without PM or something like it.

I tend to think this this type of path may be more obvious to you and I because we fall in the 'androgynous' camp. For those who transitioned, it may be that continuing to present as male is condemnation rather than compromise.

I'm a little surprised nobody else has responded to this thread yet.

Maybe those in the 'androgynous' camp have the kind of self-critical, down-to-earth attitude that does not allow them to suspend their disbelief sufficiently?


Not sure either, but possibly it's a rehash of my old position...

It boils down to: what about the wife?

I truly idolise every aspect of women. Their looks, their nature, their motherhood, their nurturing kindness, their consideration. The fact that one fell in love with me! I love them so much that I wish I were one. In which case, why would I want to hurt the most important woman in my life?

I have always struggled with this one... Much as I'd like to have been born a female, I know deep down that my brain cannot be truly female, simply because I cannot look at a man and see what in the world would make him attractive to a girl. I know what I think looks handsome; but I see pretty girls with plain, even ugly men - by my standards. I've asked my daughter what it is, and she can't explain it to me. I've seen research that shows that even their taste varies according to their monthly cycle, preferring more masculine features one week and more gentle ones later.

The thing is, we did not marry lesbians! Whatever it is that women like about men, we lose it the moment we start dressing up - unless they were attracted to cross-dressers in the first place.

Why on earth should a middle-aged gender dysphoric think that their wives would suddenly become attracted to a middle-aged lesbian? Or play the role of one?

If the wife has no homosexual tendencies, the dysphoric is at the same time telling the world "I am a woman! Accept me as one!" and telling their wives: "I'm still the same man you fell in love with: accept me as him!"

Cognitive dissonance, much?

[flamesabers]

I have always struggled with this one... Much as I'd like to have been born a female, I know deep down that my brain cannot be truly female, simply because I cannot look at a man and see what in the world would make him attractive to a girl. I know what I think looks handsome; but I see pretty girls with plain, even ugly men - by my standards. I've asked my daughter what it is, and she can't explain it to me. I've seen research that shows that even their taste varies according to their monthly cycle, preferring more masculine features one week and more gentle ones later.

Bryony,

Maybe you're a male lesbian?

I have some comments on your statement of us not marrying lesbians. I'm single, so this is entirely hypothetical, but the type of female I would like to be with is one who is open-minded about gender identities and roles. In other words, someone who sees outside of the male-female binary.

[bryony]

I have always struggled with this one... Much as I'd like to have been born a female, I know deep down that my brain cannot be truly female, simply because I cannot look at a man and see what in the world would make him attractive to a girl. I know what I think looks handsome; but I see pretty girls with plain, even ugly men - by my standards. I've asked my daughter what it is, and she can't explain it to me. I've seen research that shows that even their taste varies according to their monthly cycle, preferring more masculine features one week and more gentle ones later.

Bryony,

Maybe you're a male lesbian?

I know it was a joke, but you have to wonder... the percentage of cis-females are about 1-2% lesbian, but the percentage of late transitioning trans-women who are "heterosexual" (who fancy men) is about the same percentage - at least the ones I read about. It kind of stretches the concept of "I am a woman"...

I'm "happy" to call myself a wannabee...

I have some comments on your statement of us not marrying lesbians. I'm single, so this is entirely hypothetical, but the type of female I would like to be with is one who is open-minded about gender identities and roles. In other words, someone who sees outside of the male-female binary.

That's absolutely fine. Nothing I say should be taken as critical of people who are open and upfront about their condition before they marry, or at least before they have children, and / or whose wife/partner is ok with it.

Those whom I do criticise are those who, having allowed a wife to think of them as an ordinary male for decades, bore his children and quite rightly expected them to grow old together, gets blown out of the water by someone who decides that now is the time for him to "find his inner woman", like it or not, giving the wife no choice but to "deal with it" or divorce.

This, to me, is exactly on a par with someone saying "I love you dear, but you just don't turn me on any more, so I want a divorce" and goes off with the bimbo he's been having an affair with.

It's a different kind of misogynistic faithlessness.

B.

[robyngurl]

Those whom I do criticise are those who, having allowed a wife to think of them as an ordinary male for decades, bore his children and quite rightly expected them to grow old together, gets blown out of the water by someone who decides that now is the time for him to "find his inner woman", like it or not, giving the wife no choice but to "deal with it" or divorce.

This, to me, is exactly on a par with someone saying "I love you dear, but you just don't turn me on any more, so I want a divorce" and goes off with the bimbo he's been having an affair with.

It's a different kind of misogynistic faithlessness.

B.

That's not exactly as cut and dry as you make it sound. I hardly feel as though I duped my wife into some kind of false pretense about who I am. I'm the same person... I love her just as much now, if not more, than when we were first married. I'm just finally not as terrified to allow myself to present on the outside as I've felt on the inside my entire life. Some of us didn't have the strength or confidence to unearth our deepest darkest secret at the infancy of our relationship. I get the point you're trying to make; but is it necessary to shove salt in an open wound for some of us? To me, to compare this to an affair is a slap in the face.

[sfem]

This is an old argument of bryony's. Please don't take too much from it as blindly applicable to you. Read between the lines. There is a lot of suppressed pain behind the words. The point B makes is too reduced to be broadly applicable. To put it another way, generalities are usually wrong.
Not everyone who has gender issues even admits them to themselves, and rarely do they themselves know the extent of them, or how they can change over the course of decades. B's point is based on the idea that you knew it all before you met your spouse, and then deliberately hid it for your own selfish purposes, and then spring it on your spouse when she has no cards left to play. No kidding such an individual would have something to feel ashamed about. But it is only a characterization, not a reality for most of us. Read through the past few years of postings on just this forum, never mind the others. Take a look at the long term progress and changes in both bodies and minds even among the participants here, never mind the minds of those they associate with. You will perhaps realize people change. And sometimes those changes can be adapted to, rolled with, accepted. And sometimes they can't.
Writings like the Salon article always make me very skeptical. I don't judge people based solely on the feelings of others about them. So I don't judge that woman's husband based on just her view of him. I also would suggest that even her comments about what he told her are actually only her understanding of what he said, probably coloured by her feelings about her understanding.
Don't assume you are a bad person just because someone else says you are. Find your own way. Exercise empathy. Find joy. Together if possible.
I see nothing misogynistic about what we are doing. If we have any gender based hate in our ranks, I suspect it is directed more at male culture than female.

[flamesabers]

Robyngurl,

I agree with sfem. Bryony has long since held the belief that everyone should be very transparent about NBE with their significant other.

Sfem,

I like your point about not judging people based strictly on the perceptions of others. I wonder if there are many articles that allow both parties to express their views regarding the transitioning process?