[bryony]

...

I have debated for quite sometime on commenting in this thread, my last attempt took me to a dark and downward spiral. I was lucky in that someone just so happened to contact me at that precise moment and helped me to recover.

I'm sorry to hear that, F&I. You aren't the first one to take this discussion personally, if that's what it is. I raised the subject because I thought it important.

I only ever see encouragement, here and in the press, for people who have decided to take the step of transitioning. This is mainly, I think, because it is such a momentous decision that takes a lot of courage, and when the individual is unattached, I too laud their decision and their courage.

What I don't see, though, is any thought anywhere in the press or here, for the damage to third parties caused by the fallout of these decisions.

I know how devastated I would be if my wife had wanted to do the reverse. The reason for my dysphoria is partially a personal loathing of the male form. I find females beautiful in every way and am always sad when I see a pretty girl wishing to change into a man, for that reason.

However, things being as they are, clearly most women love the male form, and only appreciate the female form in so much as comparison, rather like a male bodybuilder will compare his musculature with others of the kind.

It is reasonable to assume then, that the devastation I would imagine experiencing if my wife decided to become a man is exactly equivalent to that which many, if not most, wives experience when they learn that their husbands want to become women.

I am utterly amazed that I appear to be in a minority here in this respect. Is it the "pink fog" that stops transgenders from considering their wives' reactions? Particularly when it is announced many years into their marriages?

So here I go again. I'm sorry, but there are two sides to every argument and without knowing the other side of the story it isn't fair to cast any judgements one way or another. The world isn't black and white, as much as we would like it to be to make decisions and the like easier it just isn't.

Specific points _are_ black and white. I've already answered this in the last part of my last reply to Flame. It begins "I'm sorry Flame" and continues to the end.

For the most part many of us will try and paint ourselves in the best of light, perhaps to gain the greatest amount of support or sympathy. We also can tend to be very one sided and highly persuaded towards our our point of views and perspectives. Thus creating a tunnel vision of how we perceive the world and those around us.

Perhaps her side is the complete and whole truth, perhaps little bits and pieces were missed, we really don't know. Just seeing her side I can understand the heartache and trauma she is possibly going through, but it wouldn't be fair of me to say it is all his fault and she had no part in it.

I disagree again - ditto my last remark

I seriously doubt that EVERYONE is completely open and upfront about themselves with their significant other. If everything was 100% known, I would think it could make things a bit mundane at times. As I mentioned many people will try and present themselves in the best possible light and that goes for trying to attract a significant other as well Who wants to be with someone with issues right up front? No one would take the time to look beyond that. I am not saying it's right or wrong, I am saying people do what they do at the time in what they believe is right at the time. That does not necessarily make it right.

So if I understand what you are saying is that if there is something about you that you fear will cause someone to reject your proposal of marriage, you should keep it hidden? I seriously can't agree. That is no foundation for what is probably the most serious commitment anyone can make towards anyone else. It's simply fraud.

Love is supposed to be unconditional is it not? You are supposed to accept the good and the bad. What is it, in good times and in bad, sickness and health etc etc.

Yes it is - but only if you are upfront about it. That is tantamount to saying "I'm the same person you fell in love with (except that I want to become a woman now) so if you don't put up with it, you never really loved me (even though I kept the details from you when I proposed"

Hmmm.

I think it supposed to apply to things that go wrong AFTER you tie the knot, not things that WERE wrong BEFORE but you keep quiet about it.

The only course of action, assuming both parties truly love each other, is for the guilty party to come clean, throw himself on her mercy, ask for forgiveness and promise that, as long as he can be treated for his dysphoria, everything else will be a joint decision, including how he presents to the world.

If love demands anything, it demands sacrifice if necessary. Otherwise, it's not love, in my opinion.

B.

[Sofia Bunny]

I seriously doubt that EVERYONE is completely open and upfront about themselves with their significant other. If everything was 100% known, I would think it could make things a bit mundane at times. As I mentioned many people will try and present themselves in the best possible light and that goes for trying to attract a significant other as well Who wants to be with someone with issues right up front? No one would take the time to look beyond that. I am not saying it's right or wrong, I am saying people do what they do at the time in what they believe is right at the time. That does not necessarily make it right.

So if I understand what you are saying is that if there is something about you that you fear will cause someone to reject your proposal of marriage, you should keep it hidden? I seriously can't agree. That is no foundation for what is probably the most serious commitment anyone can make towards anyone else. It's simply fraud.

No, that is not what I meant. I meant we don't start out showing our faults up front, those are revealed over time. Given enough time I would hope that those would be shared and known prior to tying the knot, otherwise there are bound to be issues due to whatever was not expressed or revealed.

As for my original intentions to share my story, I still have not worked up the nerve to continue what I wanted to. Not sure if I will.

[GoneGirl]

Of course coming out to one's spouse as a transgender person is going to be a traumatic event, especially if the condition was well-hidden for many years. This woman's story is not at all unusual.

Attempting to assign blame is counter productive, however, unless the intent is to dissolve the marriage and divide the couple's assets.

But consider the fact that one gender therapist I'm familiar with, having worked with married transgender clients for many years, has never had a case where after more than 30 years of marriage, it ended in divorce. Long term marriages tend to be stable even under trying circumstances. Add to that the difficulty that exists in starting over late in life, there is more motivation for both partners to adapt to the changes.

Coming out to a spouse as transgender is not easy. It takes courage, resolve, and a lot of work to keep the marriage intact. It doesn't help to dwell on the past. Sure, mistakes were made, but the past is past. Now is the time to focus on building a new relationship under new circumstances.

Don't think that your spouse's strong negative reaction to your disclosure is necessarily a bad thing. She's fighting to hang on to her way of life with you. She's afraid that you are the one who will choose to leave her. She is terrified of the consequences of your gender change. Most of those fears can be put to rest in time.

After 30+ years of marriage my spouse and I have succeeded in building a new life as a same sex couple. Lucky, yes, but it wasn't a given. We both wanted to stay together, and we worked to find a way.

Clara

[bryony]

Hello Clara,

Of course coming out to one's spouse as a transgender person is going to be a traumatic event, especially if the condition was well-hidden for many years. This woman's story is not at all unusual.

Attempting to assign blame is counter productive, however, unless the intent is to dissolve the marriage and divide the couple's assets.

However, there is also responsibility for the consequences of one's actions.

If a party knowingly enters into a relationship which results in children, under a persona different from their true one, (even if for the best of reasons), then that party, in my opinion, is under a greater obligation to compromise to the injured party's wishes, at least to the extent that the symptoms of GD are eased.

So, the injured party gets to be in the driving seat.

If the wife is on board with it in totality, then that's fine. If she is only willing to compromise to an extent that makes the sufferer's GD tolerable but not to present as a female then that should be respected.

Clearly she will have to compromise if the husband is suffering, but as she is on the moral high ground, she should not be expected, as the authoress of the article appeared to be, to just sit and watch the whirlwind of transformation or divorce; those two alternatives are just not acceptable.

I'm not convinced that it is necessary to go through a full transition to ease the symptoms of GD significantly. From my own experience, the right level of E takes the worst of it away. I don't believe forcing the issue with an unwilling wife will lead to anything but divorce, which I equate with the same level of selfishness as a mistress.

People have to understand that actions have consequences, and the consequences of taking the best years of a wife's life under false pretences is that she gets to be in charge of what happens next. My contention is that to do otherwise is to treat her as less than she deserves, and certainly not what would be expected from someone asserting themself to be a female in a man's body.

As I say, these are my opinions, for what they are worth; it's how I've played it with my wife despite telling her in advance of marriage of what I then thought was a cross-dressing fetish.

I know I have repeated this position at several points in this thread, but it's up to 3 pages now, and I don't know how rigorously new readers read all the postings. As the thread originator I feel obliged to keep "the other perspective" defended.

B.

[GoneGirl]

Bryony, I understand the point you are making, but I don't see the point of using a moral argument to solve the problem. Forcing a transgender to live with his/her gender dysphoria as punishment for past deception is not constructive. I have a different perspective.

But in support of your views, I do encourage my single trans friends to come clean before they progress too far in a relationship. But with transgenderism so stigmatizing in today's culture, divulging one's trans nature early will almost always kill the relationship before it takes root. And there's also the risk of being outed by an angry or bigoted date. All too often, however, the admission never happens, and often for the best of intentions.

Whether a spouse can tolerate the mental distress of gender dysphoria for the sake of his mate's happiness, is a matter that cannot be seen in such black and white terms. Guilt and shame are already part of the burden that closeted transgenders bear. Moral condemnation only makes that burden worse.

Yes, there are those who can deal with GD without having to transition their gender. I know dozens of cross dressers who identify as male and have no desire to become female. The need for feminine expression is satisfied by occasional dressing en femme. For others, like you, the physiological causes of GD can be lessened by adjusting hormone levels which makes the condition manageable. And then there are the rest of us who must transition because we are female internally and cannot pretend otherwise.

I've run into people who minimize the transgender condition as a lifestyle choice or a sexual fetish. That's not the way it is. The reason we find ourselves transitioning late in life after years of struggling to fit into the cisworld is because being trans has long been, and still is, unacceptable to most people. The responsibility for trans marriages breaking up has to be borne by society as a whole for demanding that the binary gender model be followed or be damned.

Being transgender is not a choice, it's not a mental disorder, and it's not to be used as justification for laying blame on those who are the victims of an ignorant and intolerant populace.

Clara

[CalmlyAndrogynous]

This whole thing is really a can of worms. There are so many factors involved and if I overlay my own situation on to it, I can see no win-win scenarios.

It depends so much on the couple, where they are in their relationship and so many other factors. There are times when you have to suppress things, when you have to convince yourself that there is an alternate truth that must be applied in order to preserve your partner's state of being.

I have both suppressed some things my partner won't like and been honest about others and they both have consequences.

When you cook a meal for your spouse, the nicest pieces of meat, the best cooked veggies etc go to them right. You give yourself the pieces that were slightly burned, that broke because they stuck to the bottom of the frypan.

Putting your wife first when you can live with the consequences, is something you have to do from time to time.

There may come a time though when the consequences of suppressing outweigh the consequences of revealing. Most spouses would prefer coming out as TG over suicide. (I am cynical enough to think that not all would.)

I totally agree with Bryony that marriage is a commitment to another person and a decision as significant as TG has to involve both parties. A fait accompli is no way to handle it. I would not/could not do that to my wife.

I also agree with Clara that there is a societal issue here where gender is too binary and the concept of a continuum is gaining, but not well accepted. For those who rely on the societal framework and knowing their place in it for their wellbeing, I can understand why the author is distressed.

[GoneGirl]

Well put, Calmly. There are no 'one size fits all' answers here. Clara

[bryony]

Bryony, I understand the point you are making, but I don't see the point of using a moral argument to solve the problem. Forcing a transgender to live with his/her gender dysphoria as punishment for past deception is not constructive. I have a different perspective.

Missing the point, Clara. If you are saying it is ok for a man to hide his GD from his wife for decades and then proceed to full transition without her buy-in or to divorce then I cannot agree. It makes a complete mockery of marriage and turns the whole thing into cynical exploitation of an innocent woman typical of alpha males throughout history.

Your paraphrase "as punishment" misses totally what I said. That the wife, as the injured party demands as much consideration as she needs as long as the husband can obtain sufficient relief from his GD symptoms through medication which may indeed cause breast growth but does not require the masquerade of clothing and cosmetics which could cause extreme distress to a loving wife who does not deserve it.

Please re-read what I wrote, because your paraphrase tells me that you did not understand it.

But in support of your views, I do encourage my single trans friends to come clean before they progress too far in a relationship. But with transgenderism so stigmatizing in today's culture, divulging one's trans nature early will almost always kill the relationship before it takes root.

I am very disappointed in you Clara. You are actually condoning deception and the risk of destruction of a woman's best years, when she could find a better, more honest mate.

Perhaps you should re-read what you wrote!

And there's also the risk of being outed by an angry or bigoted date.

And that adds cowardice to the mix. A coward with a sexual disorder proposing to a woman pretending to be a manly man. That's just awful.

If he is scared of being outed, he doesn't know the girl. Why the hell is he proposing??

All too often, however, the admission never happens, and often for the best of intentions.

These can only include not being aware of the extent of the problem, being besotted with love, and willing to do anything to make her happy.

Whether a spouse can tolerate the mental distress of gender dysphoria for the sake of his mate's happiness, is a matter that cannot be seen in such black and white terms.

Please don't misquote me. The major part of GD is caused by the hormone balance. You admitted in another thread today that PM gave you immediate relief.

Women are not born with cosmetics and clothes. We are all naked. If you get the hormones right, that's 99% of the problem. The rest is just wish fulfillment which is not worth sacrificing a long-lasting marriage with children for.

Guilt and shame are already part of the burden that closeted transgenders bear. Moral condemnation only makes that burden worse.

Again, my condemnation if for a select group of individuals, mostly based on the husband of the authoress of the Salon article. You cannot parcel everyone up as good anymore than you seem to think that I am parcelling them up as bad.

...

For others, like you, the physiological causes of GD can be lessened by adjusting hormone levels which makes the condition manageable. And then there are the rest of us who must transition because we are female internally and cannot pretend otherwise.

I'm not going to take that distinction at face value. I do believe the latter group exist, but they are the ones who truly believe they are girls and get distraught at puberty and have female-type attraction to boys. The ones that get to late middle age like me, losing testosterone and increasing the estrogen balance seem to have managed perfectly well for 40,50,60 years, I just dont believe that they have to do any more than sort out their hormone balance to cope with life to a reasonable degree.

If they have wives who are happy to let them do this, then that is absolutely fine. But I cannot agree that their happiness at the expense of their wives' unhappiness is anything other than selfishness.

I've run into people who minimize the transgender condition as a lifestyle choice or a sexual fetish. That's not the way it is. The reason we find ourselves transitioning late in life after years of struggling to fit into the cisworld is because being trans has long been, and still is, unacceptable to most people.

I get that. I really do. I feel the same way, believe it or not. But to be able to transition, you must have the support of your wife, or sacrifice her happiness for yours. If your wife was not happy with you getting past the medicinal relief, what would you do?

The responsibility for trans marriages breaking up has to be borne by society as a whole for demanding that the binary gender model be followed or be damned.

No. That's wrong. The responsibility is on behalf of the person who covered up their disorder. A loving wife will help him as much as she can, but it is wrong to demand more and destroy the marriage. If it was important enough to lie for, it is still important enough to lie (to the outside world) for.

Being transgender is not a choice, it's not a mental disorder, and it's not to be used as justification for laying blame on those who are the victims of an ignorant and intolerant populace.

I agree. And it is not to be used as justification for making a wife's remaining years unhappy. Only a very selfish man would do that.

[flamesabers]

Your paraphrase "as punishment" misses totally what I said. That the wife, as the injured party demands as much consideration as she needs as long as the husband can obtain sufficient relief from his GD symptoms through medication which may indeed cause breast growth but does not require the masquerade of clothing and cosmetics which could cause extreme distress to a loving wife who does not deserve it.

Bryony, I get that doing both deals out maximum damage to the wife. However, I'm curious between the two, which do think think wives would be more likely to tolerate? The effects of hormones may not be so readily obvious, but the physical changes are long lasting. The reverse holds true with makeup and clothes. Are hetrosexual women more likely to tolerate feminized males in masculine clothing or masculine males dolled up?

What I've read in this thread has helped to strengthen my conviction that bachelorhood is the best path for me. If I ever do deviate from this path, I would hope my transgender nature would become more apparent, versus having to do the unexpected talk of why I benefit from taking pm.

[GoneGirl]

Oh, Bryony, I couldn't disagree with you more.

When I came out to my wife after years of trans denial and doing my best to be a man and fulfill my marital and family obligations, my wife was distraught. When retirement took away the means to distract me from my mental anxiety, as my depression and self-destructive behaviors mounted, I sought help. I began to understand for myself what being transgender meant. There was no deception; there was no selfishness; there was confusion and a longing to fit into the cisworld. It was not to be. That's what you don't get. You think that taking drugs is going to 'cure' a transgender. But testosterone poisoning is only half the problem. That's you, it's not me.

My wife and I love each other very deeply. She was willing to let me go if that was necessary. I was willing to take 'the pill' that would make me the cisman she thought she married. No such pill exists!

Cisgender people can't understand how we transsexuals feel. You have to be transsexual to understand what it's about. And, yes, transsexuals can hide their condition until late in life -- I've done it.

My wife and I agreed to take it one step at a time. She educated herself on transgenderism. She read numerous books describing the experiences of other couples. We joined a TG support group together. She made an effort to deal with the situation at hand, not condemn me or use some pointless moral principle to coerce me into sticking to the contract.

She told me that if she had known that I was transgender when we first met, she would never have continued dating, much less marry me. Then, she said, I'm glad I didn't know because I'm glad we are together. You are the best thing that ever happened to me.

At first I thought I could continue in the role of male husband, just taking the PM estrogen to ease the GD, as you suggest. Yes, I tried that. It might have worked for you, but it didn't work for me. It doesn't work for those of us with female brains that blossom in the presence of E. My female gender identity became impossible to ignore.

My wife also confessed that she is glad I'm TS and not a part-time cross dresser. I am one person, all the time. I'm out to the world. I hide nothing. I am free to be the real me. I am not ashamed; Neither does she; I do not feel guilty. And, she'll tell you that I am more considerate and understanding as a mate than I have ever been.

Stop blaming us transgenders for the complications that being transgender causes families. We are the victims, not the perpetrators. Each of us has to do what we have to do.

Clara