[-Clelia-]

That's a good find, Clelia. Thanks!

happy you appreciate, you're welcome

what's your opinion?, sorry.... I've listed like 10 issues lol.

yep, lot of stuff to read here ... i'm reading everything you reported.
I will answer later on.

The first thing that I want to say is...
I spent an afternoon trying to understand this:

In this study, we investigated whether development of the murine mammary gland could be altered by stimulating or suppressing androgen receptor (AR) signaling in vivo. Intact virgin female mice aged 5 wk (midpuberty) or 12 wk (postpuberty) were implanted with slow-release pellets containing either placebo, 5α-dihydrotestosterone (1.5 mg) or the AR antagonist flutamide (60 mg). Treatment with 5α-dihydrotestosterone from midpuberty to 12 wk of age-retarded ductal extension by 40% (P = 0.007), but treatment from 12-21 wk had no significant effect on gland morphology. In contrast, inhibition of AR signaling with flutamide from midpuberty had no effect on the mammary gland, but flutamide treatment from 12-21 wk increased ductal branching (P = 0.004) and proliferation (P = 0.03) of breast epithelial cells. The increased proliferation in flutamide-treated mice was not correlated with serum estradiol levels or estrogen receptor-α (ERα) expression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21846805

moreover: In control mice, the frequency and intensity of AR immunostaining in mammary epithelial cells was significantly increased in the 12- to 21-wk treatment group compared with the 5- to 12-wk group (P < 0.001). In contrast, no change in ERα occurred, resulting in a marked increase in the AR to ERα ratio from 0.56 (±0.12) to 1.47 (±0.10).
--> this means that receptor ERalfa is in the same quantity, in midpuberty and postpuberty. In contrast, AR receptor triple from middlepuberty to post-puberty, and that's why breast stop to grow in female (because AR receptors increase a lot).

Also we see from your favourite article that male rats depleted of AR receptors, develop full mammary gland.

So we see how important is AR signals in breast size (despite everything else).

What i do not understand up there underlined is:
why addiction of DHT didn't decrease gland morphology in adult mammary gland?
why affected just the midpuberty, retarding development?
maybe in the adult mammary gland, DHT in extra amount, is it converted in 3-diol? so it can neutralize is own androgenic effect? I don't know...maybe it's that back-door effect, but result is not estrogenic, otherwise mammary gland should have developed..

I could understand just flutamide action... in midpuberty should work less because of less presence of AR receptor. When AR receptors increase in post-puberty, the antagonism of them promote growing.

If we low DHT, we should mimic a bit flutamide action. And also, more testosterone will be converted in estradiol, as mentioned in your sign

Circulating 2-hydroxy and 16-α hydroxy estrone levels and risk of breast cancer among postmenopausal women

Thank you about this information, i read the abstract but i didn't get it... it talks about a ratio between two components, but i don't see what ratio. I will open the pdf... but not now... (no time left), btw, do you know if there is something that low this risk?

On another note....I've seen that EPA and DHA reduces the risk of breast cancer by as much as a 32% reduction, I don't know the dosage.

the article you posted says:
"The purpose of the WHEL Study was to assess whether a major increase in vegetable, fruit, and fiber intake and a decrease in dietary fat intake reduces the risk of recurrent and new primary breast cancer and all-cause mortality among women with previously treated early-stage breast cancer.
Women with higher intakes of EPA and DHA from food had an approximate 25% reduced risk of additional breast cancer events, compared with the lowest tertile of intake. Women with higher intakes of EPA and DHA from food had a dose-dependent reduced risk of all-cause mortality. EPA and DHA intake from fish oil supplements was not associated with breast cancer outcomes. The investigation indicates that marine fatty acids from food are associated with reduced risk of additional breast cancer events and all-cause mortality. J. Nutr. 141: 201–206, 2011."
maybe you can find the answer at your question in this table:

   

" Anti-androgenic activity of fatty acids." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19353546 (2009)

Great link, thank you so much, I can only think of two supplements that cam meet that demand........coconut oil and EPO-evening primrose oil.

and hemp seed oil

I've got to go now. I know that i still miss something, i'll come back next week, i'm off for the weekend. see you!

[EvaMarie]

Eva,

Progesterone restores estrogen receptor sensitivity to its original state. Progesterone also protects against the proliferate side of breast cancer in estrogen receptors. It also down regulates DHT through 5 alpha reductase. It has no feminzing effect. Progesterone in the presence of estrogen up-regulates side branching, and estrogen promotes the elongation of breasts. But......an odd spin is that progesterone down regulates it's own receptor, crazy huh?.

Eva, I'm wondering if you took progesterone at night, (which progesterone also promotes restful sleep) and I mean daily. Only in a smaller dose....I'm just thinking to restore the fullness/projection issue. They way I see pharma E release and it's spikes throughout the day it would make sense to get that restorative phase from progesterone, plus....GH (growth hormone) is promoted by restful sleep. I dunno, it's what I would do.

But I'd also tell you need EFA's (essential fatty acids) to reduce the inflammatory response. And the body inner inflammatory markers effects everything from high blood pressure, diabetes, the release of hormones through blood proteinn....,and other bad stuff too.

Omega 3's is what I mean ....chia seeds are great.....krill oil too.

Yea I always take my P later in the evening but even 200mg is sometimes too much for me and it sometimes will make my skin crawl... Believe it or not sometimes I'll get a very uncomfortable not quite painful sensation in my hips that can really bug me... Maybe a growing pain but doubtful at 46 years old My hips have been filling out SLOWLY though so who knows

P is active all over not just the boobs, it has a nice calming effect on my mind as well and early in the cycle I feel like it increases my ability to concentrate and think... I can also have some pretty wild and very lucid dreams After a while though it seems to slow down boob growth sensations and I'll get more cranky and even bloated... Then I go off it and in a day or two I can really feel all that E and they get buzzing again I'll have more energy and feel a lot more emotional for a few days then even a bit restless and anxious.... Boobs seem to shrink a bit and calm down... Then I start the whole cycle over I have tried to just stay on 100mg all the time but I actually like the cycle better... Maybe it resets things, donno but I like it

For a while I just cut it down to 100mg and about mid cycle Id up it to 200mg for a while then go back down and then off of it...
This cycle Ive decided to try to go with 200mg from the start but starting today Im going with 100mg after lunch and I'll do another 100mg later tonight... Then after a week try upping it to 200mg before bed for 300mg total...

I doubt I have any smaller E spikes during the day, more like over a couple of days... I take EV shots every five days, they give a fast rise and then fall that takes about a 5 days and peaks near the middle... So Im always either going up or down on E and its never really steady with big peaks every five days... Lately since I still have a nice stash Ive added a Climera 100 matrix E patch in an attempt keep the lows a bit higher... Seems to help so far even though compared to the shots a single patch is pretty weak... Maybe even just mostly psychological but I feel a bit better and they are easy enough to just stick on and forget about in between shots

I donno about those supplements but I do like to try eat fish twice a week and a lot of salads with oil and vinegar based dressings

All I know is E and P work together but getting the right balance with endogenous hormones has to be nearly impossible... Its a bit of a controversy and its hard to find anything conclusive on P's role in MtF HRT or even cis for women that undergo surgical menopause... The big difference of course is that cis women are already fully feminized...

[hannah]

Lotus, could there be side effects from 'blocking' androgens over time? Or can you do this for longer periods? And thank you for the information

That's a great question Hannah,

Much of what you find is on androgen access, but there is something called androgen deprivation therapy or ADT for short, but even that is suggested in male prostate cancer therapy.

From what I've seen, long term ADT in women could result in reduced libido, cognitive skills, skin, menstrual, bone and metabolism issues.

Over half the androgens in women come DHEA and DHEAS, but without Testoserone there wouldn't be estrogen, that's science for yeah.

Yeh thats still a bit abracadabra for me..First i just read about DHEA and now I'm also reading about DHEAS So I'll just watch at my libido to check if I need a break from AA's.. My cognitive skills arent a good pointer I guess(Drops dishes often):p

[Lotus]

I've got to go now. I know that i still miss something, i'll come back next week, i'm off for the weekend. see you!

Clelia,

You give good homework assignment too. I look forward to hearing from you , have a good weekend.

Oh btw, science is cruel mistress, just when I think I've figured out how chaperone proteins work or dimers in the cytoplasm, or even receptor initiated gene transcription, wham....smack-smack upside my head, she has other plans, then it hits me!!!, duh!!!.....depolarization and repolarization of sodium and calcium ion channels, phew!!!! Estradiol has a direct effect on G-coupled protein recepotrs, besides the ion channels. Its still painting the picture in my mind how cells diffuse across membranes, (well....actually two membranes), then into the cytoplasm.

I like this statement from a recent research article:

"Only by understanding completely the mechanisms and impact of estradiol action on the developing brain can we also understand when these processes go awry."

[Lotus]

Eva,

Oh yeah good point, yup, P gets the libido going , or so the say. Expanding hips tells us feminizing is working. That alone is just as big a thrill as seeing breast growth, well imo that is.

Congrats

Shoot.....I almost forgot to tell you (my apologies).

You look good young lady.

[EvaMarie]

THANKS We all love a compliment!!!

Believe it or not my libido is about as strong as its ever been and my T has been under 10ng/dl for at least 6 months, under 25ng/dl for at least 8 and its been so low I had to have a special test that's very sensitive and usually only used for hypogonadism and it was 3.8ng/dl, other readings were 6 and 7 ng/dl since I started HRT... Thats basically NONE and only coming from the adrenals and even then likely suppressed... But I dont really need a test to know that Even my doc was alarmed at how low it is but I set him straight there
I feel that E is also essential to libido, especially with low T, look what happens to cis women when it falls off a cliff during menopause.... They lose their libido... Its different than on T but its still very much there including surprisingly good "male" function for me anyway
I know P can be converted to T but I dont feel it has much effect on my libido... I think the spiro and dutas and total E predominance would block that anyway...

Yes, elimaniting androgen/DHT ip even in Mtf has long term consequence. The biological affects of androgens are are still needed. The assumptation of testosterone being poison is often misinterpreted. Testosterone is the sex hormone that converts to all estrogens, without T Mtf wouldn't make the necessary conversion to transition. I think it's a mistake to reduce testosterone, the reduction is needed at DHT...... and the reason is quite obvious.

T is poison to the MtF who has gone through male puberty... Its what makes the male genes or the Y chromosome work.... Just have to look at an XY CAIS woman to see that.... Ive had more than enough T

I dont want any at all anymore thanks I get that T is the source of E naturally even in cis women I think Ive read... I also take Dutasteride to nearly completely block DHT and a large dose of spiro, 300mg daily... Id say T is completely out of the picture here.... My BP is 100/60 and complete labs are perfect I used to suffer from BPH but now the prostate seems to be gone...

There are some TS women out there who are 30-40 years post op who have done just fine without much T and of course there are also castrated eunics who manage to live a long time with very little sex hormone of any type at all...

Maybe Im wrong though, some MtF have amazing feminization on low dose E even with a low male/high female range of T I guess it boils down to individual genetics.... I dont want to try it anytime soon though...

[-Clelia-]

hey Lotus, dont worry, all the biochemical information is also good. Now you know how many mechanisms are involved in signal pathways I think that enhance signalling of the cells should be ok, and the fluidity of the membrane can help this. We know that a good diet can benefit these pathways for our healthy. This NBE bring you to be healtier, and well informed, and that is a nice thing. See you soon

[Lotus]

THANKS We all love a compliment!!!

Believe it or not my libido is about as strong as its ever been and my T has been under 10ng/dl for at least 6 months, under 25ng/dl for at least 8 and its been so low I had to have a special test that's very sensitive and usually only used for hypogonadism and it was 3.8ng/dl, other readings were 6 and 7 ng/dl since I started HRT... Thats basically NONE and only coming from the adrenals and even then likely suppressed... But I dont really need a test to know that Even my doc was alarmed at how low it is but I set him straight there
I feel that E is also essential to libido, especially with low T, look what happens to cis women when it falls off a cliff during menopause.... They lose their libido... Its different than on T but its still very much there including surprisingly good "male" function for me anyway
I know P can be converted to T but I dont feel it has much effect on my libido... I think the spiro and dutas and total E predominance would block that anyway...

Yes, elimaniting androgen/DHT ip even in Mtf has long term consequence. The biological affects of androgens are are still needed. The assumptation of testosterone being poison is often misinterpreted. Testosterone is the sex hormone that converts to all estrogens, without T Mtf wouldn't make the necessary conversion to transition. I think it's a mistake to reduce testosterone, the reduction is needed at DHT...... and the reason is quite obvious.

T is poison to the MtF who has gone through male puberty... Its what makes the male genes or the Y chromosome work.... Just have to look at an XY CAIS woman to see that.... Ive had more than enough T

I dont want any at all anymore thanks I get that T is the source of E naturally even in cis women I think Ive read... I also take Dutasteride to nearly completely block DHT and a large dose of spiro, 300mg daily... Id say T is completely out of the picture here.... My BP is 100/60 and complete labs are perfect I used to suffer from BPH but now the prostate seems to be gone...

There are some TS women out there who are 30-40 years post op who have done just fine without much T and of course there are also castrated eunics who manage to live a long time with very little sex hormone of any type at all...

Maybe Im wrong though, some MtF have amazing feminization on low dose E even with a low male/high female range of T I guess it boils down to individual genetics.... I dont want to try it anytime soon though...

I hear yeah, and I understand what your saying. Personally?, I'm not offended by T lol........it's T's metabolite brother DHT that I've got a bone to pick with..... atm.

T......we all have (we need)......it's DHT that's the poison if you want boobs, curves, Mtf.

[Roserose]

There's two versions, male and female (this is the female one), (sample illustration only- not a suggested program, for illustration only).

Please Check my program (sample)


Follicular Cycle
Ainterol PM - 500mg - 2x daily
Collagen - 2x times a daily
Vit D - 2000iu -1x daily total of 2000iu
Fish oil - 1000mg 3x daily
Coconut oil 1 tbsp daily

Mid Cycle?

Luteal Cycle
Fenugreek -610mg each -3x daily
Fennel - 480mg each - 2x daily
Dong Quai -565mg -2x daily
Dandelion - 525mg -1x daily
L-Tyrosine - 500mg 1x daily

Massages/Noogleberry

Exercise

Diet/Calories Per day

Other:
___________________


Age/weight (optional)
Bust:
Overbust:
Underbust:
Goal:

Hi Lotus may i know,

Why there is no aromatase in the sample program? Is it not really essential in NBE?

[Roserose]

There's two versions, male and female (this is the female one), (sample illustration only- not a suggested program, for illustration only).

Please Check my program (sample)


Follicular Cycle
Ainterol PM - 500mg - 2x daily
Collagen - 2x times a daily
Vit D - 2000iu -1x daily total of 2000iu
Fish oil - 1000mg 3x daily
Coconut oil 1 tbsp daily

Mid Cycle?

Luteal Cycle
Fenugreek -610mg each -3x daily
Fennel - 480mg each - 2x daily
Dong Quai -565mg -2x daily
Dandelion - 525mg -1x daily
L-Tyrosine - 500mg 1x daily

Massages/Noogleberry

Exercise

Diet/Calories Per day

Other:
___________________


Age/weight (optional)
Bust:
Overbust:
Underbust:
Goal:

Hi Lotus may i know,

Why there is no aromatase in the sample program? Is it not really essential in NBE?