[bryony]

....

Bryony, many of your early posts influenced me to believe that I was AGP, although I prefer the less pejorative term 'cross dreamer' coined by Jack Molay. I now know that I am not.

Hi Clara,

I think "know" is a bit too certain. "Sure", I could believe. We are pretty sure that our brains are affected in the womb and develop as male or female. But what if this is a continuum? My feeling is that what I call autogynephilia (as a heretic, I do love manufactured pejoratives) is simply a point on that continuum.

I too got immediate relief. Since I no longer feel the sexual pressure of testosterone, I could also say that I am not (any longer) an autogynephile. You have a wife who is happy to let you express the inner woman externally, and I don't. How can you be certain that we are indeed different? If, like me, you got a sexual thrill at the idea of being female, I am quite sure it would have returned if you had stopped taking estrogen, and likely would now if you started on testosterone.

...

I started to dress in feminine attire (I never cross dressed before that), and became excited about my developing breasts.

Not so different so far, except I had cross-dressed before. Now just suppose your wife had begged you not to. Given your relief from GD, I contend that you would have been able to cope with life, albeit without the level of satisfaction that you now enjoy. Can you honestly disagree with that?

I experienced a growing sense of mismatch between my inner and outer presence, and as I allowed these feelings to grow, it became clear that I was a man only in the outer appearance of my body. Inside I felt alive and comfortable as a woman.

I'm not surprised. I'm sure I would have experienced the same thing, had I been encouraged to take on that persona. However, I am quite sure that the act of taking on the female persona is self-reinforcing.

My male persona began to fade away. I began to present as a woman every chance I had. Asking for and receiving acceptance from my spouse, children, and close relatives, I am now living full-time in my authentic gender and am happier than at any time in my life.

ditto my previous point.

My point is that one doesn't always know the extent of one's cross gender identity in the beginning. We, here, warn about the dangers of 'playing' with estrogenic herbs to satisfy some ill-understood craving for female breasts while intending to maintain male identity. It can reveal aspects of your psyche that you never knew existed. It can turn your life upside down, or right side up.

I totally agree.

To all the new members at Breast Nexus, please be respectful of the power that these substances wield.

Amen to that.

B.

[GoneGirl]

Bryony,
Yes, gender identity is a continuum. We all find ourselves at different points on the spectrum. I'm sure you have a pretty good idea where you fall. But you have no business assuming where I fall.

If I had run up against the kind of opposition from my wife as you have from yours (and I expected to), I was prepared to lose everything, except my life, to get out from under what had grown into an intolerable burden.

Was I concerned about the pain that it would cause my wife? Of course I was, and I was prepared to do all I could to lessen it. Fortunately, I have a wife who was also willing to do all she could to lessen mine. I know of several wives of friends who are not, and in most of those cases, it's the transgender who tries to find some middle ground that the wife will begrudgingly agree to. It's not often a stable solution, however, and only serves to increase distrust and resentment between husband and wife.

You seem to have found a middle ground that works for you, Bryony. Great, I'm happy for you. Each of us needs to find ours.

Clara

[bryony]

Bryony,
Yes, gender identity is a continuum. We all find ourselves at different points on the spectrum. I'm sure you have a pretty good idea where you fall. But you have no business assuming where I fall.

If you mean my presumption that the worst aspects of GD can be dealt with by medication, you pretty much said the same thing yourself.

If I had run up against the kind of opposition from my wife as you have from yours (and I expected to),

I didn't "run up". The day I proposed, I confessed to my (what I then supposed was) transvestite impulses. She told me that she still wanted to marry me, but that she wouldn't be able to deal with me dressed as a woman.

So that was my choice. Cards on the table from both parties, as it should be. Nobody forced either of us to get married. Neither of us lied to get into the other party's pants.

I was prepared to lose everything, except my life, to get out from under what had grown into an intolerable burden.
Was I concerned about the pain that it would cause my wife? Of course I was, and I was prepared to do all I could to lessen it. Fortunately, I have a wife who was also willing to do all she could to lessen mine. I know of several wives of friends who are not, and in most of those cases, it's the transgender who tries to find some middle ground that the wife will begrudgingly agree to.

OK, but how many of these individuals, including you, gave the wife a chance to refuse the proposal of marriage with full disclosure? "Begrudgingly?" now there's a pejorative. So is it the wife's fault that she was expecting to grow old with a man rather than a trans-woman? If I had lied by omission to secure a proposal, "begrudging" is the best I would expect!

It's not often a stable solution, however, and only serves to increase distrust and resentment between husband and wife.

Rather like the "normal" male of about the same age who goes out having affairs to recover his lost youth. He begs his wife for forgiveness and she begrudglingly gives it. That serves to increase distrust and resentment between husband and wife. See any parallels here?

You seem to have found a middle ground that works for you, Bryony. Great, I'm happy for you. Each of us needs to find ours.

From what you say, you were either up front with your wife at the start or disclosed it late in the game but were luckly enough to be married to a woman with a greater propensity for sacrifice than those who are prepared to divorce their women so they can live their dream. I'm happy for you too.

But don't kid yourself that I am perfectly happy with my situation. I cannot be.
I, personally would rather die than make my loved ones unhappy; so I cannot be happy as a male, and I cannot be happy trying to be a female.

Now consider this, bearing in mind the article in the first post of the "another perspective" thread.

Two transsexuals: one presents as a male because he empathises with his wife;
the other, who hid his transsexuality from his wife until recently, presents as a female despite how much this makes his wife suffer.

Which one exhibits the more typical female traits? Which one the more typical male traits?

B.

[GoneGirl]

Bryony,
I'm trying to understand what your point is in all this back and forth. Is there some kind of underlying issue related to your transgenderism that you are trying to justify? Is it the same kind of self-righteousness that I get from religious conservatives? Is it a profound sense of guilt for having married your wife not knowing the full extent of your transgenderism? Is it an deep down sense of shame and disgust directed at transgender people?

You were an active poster on BN when I joined. Then, you disappeared without a word for many months. Various possible reasons come to mind, but in the end it was simply a big mystery to me. Would you care to offer an explanation? I think it would be more valuable to the readers here than repeating over and over the same sense of indignation you feel for those of us who don't share your particular views on the nature of transgenderism and how it relates to moral values.

Clara

[WantAPair]

Bryony,
I'm trying to understand what your point is in all this back and forth. Is there some kind of underlying issue related to your transgenderism that you are trying to justify? Is it the same kind of self-righteousness that I get from religious conservatives? Is it a profound sense of guilt for having married your wife not knowing the full extent of your transgenderism? Is it an deep down sense of shame and disgust directed at transgender people?

You were an active poster on BN when I joined. Then, you disappeared without a word for many months. Various possible reasons come to mind, but in the end it was simply a big mystery to me. Would you care to offer an explanation? I think it would be more valuable to the readers here than repeating over and over the same sense of indignation you feel for those of us who don't share your particular views on the nature of transgenderism and how it relates to moral values.

Clara

Hey, Clara! :-)

Not to complain, or anything, but, I kind of study and play with words and I was just thinking, should it actually be called, "Transgenderism"? I'd think that pretty much ANY ism is actually a type of religious belief, Hinduism, Taoism, Atheism, etc.. and, can you really call yourself and "Transgenderist"? I think it should just be called, "being transgendered". You WERE one gender and you transferred (so to speak) to the other. Adding the "ism" also makes it kinda sound like a medical condition, one that needs to be treated, as does a sickness or disease. I guess, in a way, you WOULD be at dis-ease over your present state. But, then, we also have dwarfism. I guess if you ARE a dwarf, you BELIEVE you're a dwarf, but, still, it also sounds like a kind of religion. However, if you were to say, "I'm a dwarf.", it's pretty much the same as saying, "I'm a Jew." or, "I'm a Hindu".
Tricky things, words!! Aren't they? I could probably go on for a while with this! Lol. NO, I'm NOT taking drugs!!!! I guess that'd be called, "drugism" and I'd need to be taken care of by a druggist!!
Oh, boy, here we go!!!
Take care!! ;-)

[GoneGirl]

I'm not that satisfied with the current trans terminology either. It's been evolving. 'Transgendered' is out of favor now. The 'ed' has been dropped. The reason being that we transgender individuals were born transgender. We don't say that a gay individual is 'gayed', right? In other words, it's not something that is done to you.

I agree with you about 'transgenderism', but that's still the term I see used, in the same way that 'homosexuality' is used.

We'll have to wait to see if better terminology emerges as the discussion of trans issues widens.

Clara

[elainecd]

I have always liked how the American Indians said it....Two Spirits
They honored and felt they had powers others didn't. They were special in their societies.

"Throughout history, a person who was recognized as two-spirit was someone who identified with both male and female gender roles, and so two-spirit is essentially a third gender recognized in Indigenous cultures."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
http://twospirits.org/

[Sofia Bunny]

...
Two transsexuals: one presents as a male because he empathises with his wife;
the other, who hid his transsexuality from his wife until recently, presents as a female despite how much this makes his wife suffer.

Which one exhibits the more typical female traits? Which one the more typical male traits?

B.

Ok, I am not really sure why, but the word typical male/female is driving me insane. I don't know if it is just me, or what, but I just don't agree with typical anything. There are way too many factors to try and lump anyone into typical male/female. Religion, family, country, friends, environment etc. Some, all, or even more, set the basic characteristics that would be identified with the male or female characteristic traits.

I myself am a blend of characteristics and traits, it is what makes me, me. Now perhaps that could be the source of some of my issues and confusion, as I cannot really identify my characteristic traits as either mostly female, or mostly male.

Sorry, I am not trying to pick a fight or anything, just adding my two cents. We all have our own point of views, and opinions, but that is the beauty of us right?

[sfem]

Wantapair, are you suggesting that a criticism is some kind of religious act? How about realism, or voyeurism, or activism, or catechism, or even schism? Or any of a great many other verbs turned into nouns that reflect that verb?
Adding ism to a word doesn't make it religiously oriented or even relevant to religions. Transgenderism is fine as an action noun, although perhaps transgender activism might be a more descriptive way of phrasing it (still an -ism, still non-religious).
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/-ism?s=t if anybody wants a (dubious) reference.

Fire&Ice, I had the same reaction to B's use of the gender binary, but decided it wasn't worth replying to. Much like B's denunciation of those of us on here who haven't walked the exact same path as B or come to the same conclusions as B. B's penchant for mixing his views of those of us on the forum with whatever source material he quotes, then retreating to saying "I was only referring to the original article" (or something similar) whenever his point is challenged in a way he cannot answer, just makes me stop reading. So do his personal attacks, and I will not give any semblance of credibility to his position by taking his double-dog dare of dragging my personal relationships into it. If he feels his situation resonates with his point, fine. Far be it from me to say it doesn't. B is the authority on B, not me. B can judge someone else guilty then demand they prove their innocence if he wants. I said my piece, then let others have their turn. Regarding the current spat, I am not particularly inclined to find the original article reliable anyway. I have no reasonable way to ascertain the true facts of the situation (assuming the entire piece isn't a fabrication to create a column and sell ad space). Even if it is taken at face value, as I previously posted, it is necessarily highly incomplete because it does not have the other party's perspective or narrative in it. B can stand on the two-legged stool if he likes. I'll pass.

[WantAPair]

I'm not that satisfied with the current trans terminology either. It's been evolving. 'Transgendered' is out of favor now. The 'ed' has been dropped. The reason being that we transgender individuals were born transgender. We don't say that a gay individual is 'gayed', right? In other words, it's not something that is done to you.

I agree with you about 'transgenderism', but that's still the term I see used, in the same way that 'homosexuality' is used.

We'll have to wait to see if better terminology emerges as the discussion of trans issues widens.

Clara

Well, yeah, you HAVE a sex change, so, it's done TO you.

Or, we can come up with the words ourselves and toss them into common usagologismisticism. See? I just quoined a new word without even trying!