[Lotus]

NBE Forum-

The purpose of this thread is to explain Fenugreek as an Phytoestrogen, 3 categories will be used in the process to describe the info:

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Corresponding info will be assigned these values:
1) Novice level
2) Intermediate level
3) Expert level

Fenugreek is a Flavonoid, as described as a phytoestrogens:2) Some naturally occurring compounds present in plants have been found to possess oestrogenic properties, these chemicals have been termed ‘phytoestrogens’. The majority of phytoestrogens belong to a large group of substituted phenolic compounds known as flavonoids. Three classes of flavanoid, the coumestans, prenylated flavonoids and isoflavones, are phytoestrogens that possess the most potent oestrogenic activity. A class of non-flavonoid phytoestrogens, the lignans has also been identified.


(2) Fenugreek Flavonoids (phytoestrogens), whose action in regulating the hormonal production facilitates the development of the mammary glands which 'feed' on estrogens. Fenugreek seeds have recently obtained some interest as a source of Diosgenin, which is used in the synthesis of steroid hormones.
It has been known since ancient times for its galactogogue property, since it stimulates mammary glands to produce milk (as a consequence to the stimulation of the secretion of prolactin) in nursing mothers - in all other women the stimulating - or rather, balancing - action on hormones notably contributes to the development of the breast, the main receptor for estrogens in the female body.
http://www.anagen.net/fenuin.htm

1) Both fenugreek and wild yam have in common that they contain diosgenin. Diosgenin has phytoestrogenic properties,6 and is capable of binding to estrogen receptor-sites.7 Furthermore, research in mice demonstrated that diosgenin was, in fact, a growth stimulator of the mammary gland.8 Although this research was not conducted in humans, it certainly lends credence to Duke’s reported testimonials of fenugreek’s effectiveness as a breast enlargement agent.
http://vivavitamins.com/literature/Breas...nicals.pdf

1) The plant retains phytoestrogens, which are herbaceous chemicals similar to the female sex hormone estrogen. http://www.health-care-tips.org/herbal-m...ugreek.htm


1) The high levels of phytoestrogen in fenugreek may protect against certain types of cancers. http://www.livestrong.com/article/212526...te-health/


3 ) Is Fenugreek a phytoestrogen?.....(various related studies)
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=is+fenugreek+a+phytoestrogen%3F&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C36&as_sdtp=

3 ) Isoflavonoid biosynthesis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/biosystems/96862

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Btw- for those who have found articles/research about Fenugreek has Testosterone influences, I've only found a couple of studies, and of those the increase is only slight compared to the 2-3 times increase of estradiol and minimal increase in Dht, which we can always discuss anytime.

[Dynseli]

Here is why Fenugreek's MAIN action is progesterone-like. Because it causes branching of ducts.

Estrogen causes elongation of ducts. Prolactin causes duct ends to grow into milk producing glands (alveolar development or alevelorgenesis). Progesterone causes duct branching, meaning increasing the number of terminal ends. "Progesterone receptor signaling is required for side branching and alveologenesis." based on this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2982168/ in 2010 . It then goes on to further to say that further alveologenesis requires prolactin.

Of course diosgenin binds to estrogen receptors, as do progesterone, estrogen, prolactin, and androgens bind to estrogen receptors.

It also makes sense that diosgenin has androgenic influences, because androgens are formed from progesterone.

Look at what diosgenin is labeled as, it is called a steroidal sapogenin, not a phytoestrogen.

These quotes are about Diosgenin from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1459613 - "increase in number of ducts and appearance of terminal endbuds" and "absence of alveolar development even in the presence of exogenous estrogen". Meaning progesterone.

"Diosgenin did significantly affect mammary maturation, increasing terminal endbud differentiation." www.fugh-berman.com/files/Bust.pdf . This is not an estrogenic action.

Here it lists Wild Yam (which has diosgenin) as potentially being estrogenic or progestogenic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3800090/

Bottom line, diosgenin causes duct branching, like progesterone. Now, progesterone synergizes with estrogen and prolactin on each other's receptors, but this is specifically a progesterone action.

[Lotus]

That's nice work lovely, however the bottom line is that fenugreek is still and always will be a phytoestrogen.


In vitro estrogenic activities of fenugreek Trigonella foenum graecum seeds

DLR assay measures estrogen activity through binding of estrogen receptor (ER α) in MCF-7 cells transiently transfected with a plasmid coding estrogen response elements with a reporter gene (ERE-luc) and a plasmid coding for ERα. FCE activated the expression of estrogen responsive reporter genes in MCF-7 cell lines while estrogen antagonists like tamoxifen downregulated the effects. In MCF-7 cells transfected with ERα and ERE-luc there was an upregulation of luciferase transcription after treatment with FCE and this was comparable with that of 17- β estradiol treatment. In the presence of an agonist, the ER initiates transcriptional activation by binding to specific EREs in the promoters of target genes23.

http://icmr.nic.in/ijmr/2010/june/0613.pdf

[Dynseli]

This is because, according to "Hormone Action in the Mammary Gland" they synergize, they boast each other's response. Generally speaking, weak antagonists upregulate that receptor. Fortunately, with breast development there are three hormones that cause growth, and while weak amounts downregulate their own receptor, they upregulate the other two receptors.

As for androgens, androgens possibly upregulate while inhibiting growth. Meaning no to little growth (According to Yen & Jaffe's Reproductive Endocrinology (Sixth Edition): The Breast, the existence of androgens or their receptors were also required for mammary development). DHT inhibits growth and downregulates PR, ER and PrlR.

[Lotus]

T. foenum-graecum (aka-Fenugreek)

Here's another related study concerning FG, MCF-7 is positive for ER-a, which FG clearly shows positive cell sensitivity and stimulates growth. And while I believe some phtyoestrogens down-regulate cell lines and receptors resulting in an anti-estrogenic and influence androgens, FG hasnt shown that specificity except in one study, which I noted.

Estrogen-like activities and cytotoxicity effects of Thai herbal medicines as natural ingredients in anti-ageing

With respect to herbal medicines traditionally used as a galactogogue to increase inadequate breast milk supply, only T. foenum-graecum promoted the growth of MCF-7 cells in a dose-dependent manner.

http://www.nanotec.or.th/en/wp-content/u.../64525.pdf


MCF-7 cells are useful for in vitro breast cancer studies because the cell line has retained several ideal characteristics particular to the mammary epithelium. These include the ability for MCF-7 cells to process estrogen, in the form of estradiol, via estrogen receptors in the cell cytoplasm. This makes the MCF-7 cell line an estrogen receptor (ER) positive control cell line.
http://www.mcf7.com

[Lotus]

Does this mean Fenugreek makes it to the top of NBE herbs list?, maybe, if the product was verified for potency and quality I'd be inclined to say it's in the top two or three. Our beloved PM actually down regulates breast growth in higher concentrations, which has been previously reported and backed by scientific evidence here at BN. Which means, breast growth falls short (eventually), and simply becuase it's an anti-estrogenic and has slight androgenic properties. The binding affinity leans more towards ER-b than ER-a, plus, it acts more like E1 estrone.

It's plausible to alternate or cycle PM, for instance, every other day, or 3-4 days on and 3 off. During the alternated days supplement with other herbs, e.g. vitex, red clover, fenugreek. Finding legitamte NBE herbs becomes the next obstacle to overcome. It's an unregulated industry, so......it would be nice if an herbal manufacturing company stepped up to the plate and had their products verified by an independent source (lab) with no interest, in the meantime, I won't hold my breath.

[Val_]

Lotus and lovely11, thanks for this discussion. I have been thinking of adding FG to my program so this has been really informative.

Finding legitamte NBE herbs becomes the next obstacle to overcome. It's an unregulated industry, so......it would be nice if an herbal manufacturing company stepped up to the plate and had their products verified by an independent source (lab) with no interest, in the meantime, I won't hold my breath.

One of my regular brands is Now Foods. On their site, they have many pages dedicated to showing the quality of their supplements. Of course, its their own site and they can write anything they want. On Labdoor, their products do rank pretty well, so it does lend some credibility to them.

[tanysquirrel]

Lotus and lovely11, thanks for this discussion. I have been thinking of adding FG to my program so this has been really informative.

Finding legitamte NBE herbs becomes the next obstacle to overcome. It's an unregulated industry, so......it would be nice if an herbal manufacturing company stepped up to the plate and had their products verified by an independent source (lab) with no interest, in the meantime, I won't hold my breath.

One of my regular brands is Now Foods. On their site, they have many pages dedicated to showing the quality of their supplements. Of course, its their own site and they can write anything they want. On Labdoor, their products do rank pretty well, so it does lend some credibility to them.

i am currently using/experimenting with Fenugreek along with white peony extracts and red clover extracts, all taken sublingually. i have been on them for a few weeks and have noticed some growth and firmness, additional sensitivity as well as nipples being a bit more stretchy and pliable.  i usually use 1 dropper full of each extract and take that sublingually 2 to three times a day.. so far, no maple syrup smell.

[Lotus]

Omg TMS...welcome back. 

I've been using organic Fenugreek (whole seed) and brewing it as tea to lower SHBG, I posted new science on Fenugreek (and other herbs) today. FG has diosgenin that benefit breast growth, diabetes, lowers SHBG, and now possibly helping with depression.

Btw, long overdue but you're acorn of nuts thread belongs as a sticky...look for it soon (w/Eve's approval). 

[tanysquirrel]

Omg TMS...welcome back. 

I've been using organic Fenugreek (whole seed) and brewing it as tea to lower SHBG, I posted new science on Fenugreek (and other herbs) today. FG has diosgenin that benefit breast growth, diabetes, lowers SHBG, and now possibly helping with depression.

Btw, long overdue but you're acorn of nuts thread belongs as a sticky...look for it soon (w/Eve's approval). 

 thanks hun! btw any way you all can send me my original acct to email ? i tried recovering  it on y own but said that it was wrong email... i only use a few email addressess, none if them worked.

good to know about fenugreek and diabetes.... i was diagnosed with it in last two years. its always a struggle to keep my sugar in check. 

question on diosgenin, i knew that wild yam had it, but it had to be processed by a lab to get it to be effective (last i knew from research years ago) is fenugreek's diosgenin bio-available?