[Lotus]

Still wondering, is DHT included in total testosterone or not?

Good question, I doubt if one exists lol, it would come from free T, I remember seeing another figure somewhere on a slightly similar percentage.

Yes, DHT would come from free T. (As far as a percentage DHT has in the pie chart, slice out 7% of that 2% of free T, lol).

So if I want to know my DHT level, I would need a separate test for that, right?

Clara

It looks like it, I've seen silva and blood tests range from $60 to over $200. The reference ranges will vary as you know with age, bmi and other factors.

Salivary DHT Ranges
(Unsupplemented A.M. Ranges in pg/ml)
Male 10-50 pg/ml Female 6-20 pg/m

Blood DHT test range
adult male 30 - 85 ng/dL


Blood Testing Protocols
http://www.lef.org/protocols/appendix/bl...ing_03.htm

[Lenneth]

interesting, how does that compare with that of biological females?

According to the National Institutes of Health, the normal range of testosterone is 30 to 95 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) for women and 300 to 1,200 ng/dL for men, but individual laboratories might have a slightly different range that they consider normal. Also keep in mind that the levels vary with age. In women, the level of testosterone in the blood is lowest during puberty and adolescence, and is highest in pre- and post-menopausal women. For men, the levels increase during puberty and stay steady for much of their young adult life. They then slowly begin to decline during middle and older age.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/239396...r-a-woman/


Men and women produce exactly the same hormones, but in different amounts: as a rule, men produce 20 times more testosterone than women, while women produce more estrogen and progesterone. As with most things in nature, this "norm" can become imbalanced, and some women may have higher levels of testosterone, causing a unique set of symptoms.


I probably have enough info on all the useless info on T you can image, lol. A fact sheet should be in order.

the balance of E - T or T - E Comparison is what I was meaning.

[GoneGirl]

The crazy thing is that as men age and their testosterone level drops, their DHT level increases! This leads to baldness in 70% of men. It also means body hair grows even courser, and the prostate enlarges. Bad stuff that DHT. All men would benefit from taking a drug like Propecia (finasteride) to lower their DHT. WTF good is it?

Clara

[Lotus]

interesting, how does that compare with that of biological females?

According to the National Institutes of Health, the normal range of testosterone is 30 to 95 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) for women and 300 to 1,200 ng/dL for men, but individual laboratories might have a slightly different range that they consider normal. Also keep in mind that the levels vary with age. In women, the level of testosterone in the blood is lowest during puberty and adolescence, and is highest in pre- and post-menopausal women. For men, the levels increase during puberty and stay steady for much of their young adult life. They then slowly begin to decline during middle and older age.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/239396...r-a-woman/


Men and women produce exactly the same hormones, but in different amounts: as a rule, men produce 20 times more testosterone than women, while women produce more estrogen and progesterone. As with most things in nature, this "norm" can become imbalanced, and some women may have higher levels of testosterone, causing a unique set of symptoms.


I probably have enough info on all the useless info on T you can image, lol. A fact sheet should be in order.

the balance of E - T or T - E Comparison is what I was meaning.

This is not an easy find, and probably not the comparison you were looking for. The numbers and values are all over the place, however for the most part other factors and considerations have to be considered when testing or getting averages, (e.g. testing times, age, bmi, health, etc.). It's still missing a few things so I'll add to it as I find the info.

Endogenous avg. produced daily (males)

MEN
-Hormone ( FSH): 2 - 18 mIU/ml
-Testosterone 3mg to 10mg (daily)
-Prolactin 7 - 18 ng/ml
-FT-Free T is about 2% (this is the functional T)
-BT-Bound T or 98%
-Albumin 38% (bloodstream)
-SHBG is 60% (sex-hormone-binding-globulin)
-DHT approximately 7% of T is reduced by 5 ar
-Estradiol approximately 0.3% of testosterone is converted into E2 by aromatase (CYP19A1) of that 0.3%, 20% is directly produced by the testes. Roughly 60% of circulating estradiol is derived from direct testicular secretion or from conversion of testicular androgens. The remaining fraction is derived from peripheral conversion of adrenal androgens. The serum levels of estradiol in males (14 - 55 pg/mL) are roughly comparable to those of postmenopausal women (< 35 pg/mL).

Endogenous avg. produced daily (females)

WOMEN
-Testosterone 0.05 mg (produced daily)
-FT-Free T normal calculated free testosterone is 0.4 – 0.8 ng/dl (or 40 – 80 pg/dl).
-Albumin 34% bloodstream)
-SHBG is 66% (sex-hormone-binding-globulin)
-Estradiol 70 to 500 mg of estradiol daily, (depending on the phase of the menstrual cycle. This is converted primarily to estrone, which circulates in roughly equal proportion to estradiol, and to small amounts of estriol.)
-Estradiol in postmenopausal women (< 35 pg/mL).
-Progesterone levels tend to be < 2 ng/ml prior to ovulation, and > 5 ng/ml after ovulation. If pregnancy occurs, human chorionic gonadotropin is released maintaining the corpus leuteum allowing it to maintain levels of progesterone.

Avg tests

Hormone Follicular Day of LH Surge Mid-luteal
-Follicle Stimulating (FSH) < 10 mIU/ml > 15 mIU/ml -
-Luteinizing Hormone-(LH) < 7 mIU/ml > 15 mIU/ml -
-Prolactin < 25 ng/ml
-Thyroid Stimulating Hormone 0.4 - 3.8 uIU/ml (TSH)
-Estradiol ( E2) < 50 pg/ml ( Day 3) > 100 pg/ml
-Progesterone < 1.5 ng/ml > 15 ng/ml




Reference Values
Free Estradiol, Percent
Reference Ranges (%)

Adult Males 1.7 - 5.4
Adult Females 1.6 - 3.6

Free Estradiol, Serum
Reference Ranges (pg/mL)

Adult Males 0.2 - 1.5
Adult Females 0.6 - 7.1

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), Serum
Reference Ranges
Adult Males 20 - 60
Adult Female
Premenopausal 40 - 120
Postmenopausal 28 - 112


the most complete list here:
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_rang...lood_tests

[Lotus]

Check this one out!! (obviously for male breast growth)







   

[Dynseli]

[DHT] WTF good is it?

DHT has use, but too much of it does as you say. DHT even up-regulates estrogen receptors.

[Lotus]

[DHT] WTF good is it?

DHT has use, but too much of it does as you say. DHT even up-regulates estrogen receptors.

Lowering DHT up-regulates the effects of estrogen in the body, and once DHT is converted to aromatase it can't be converted back to E. Are your talking about the study where they castracted rats, which isn't relevant at all.

In the present study, efferent ductule ligation and castration, followed by replacement with testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT) or estradiol was used to investigate the relative importance of circulating and luminal sources of steroid for the modulation of ERα, ERβ and AR in rat efferent ductules. Uni- or bilateral castration and ligation did not affect the expression of ERα and ERβ, but bilateral castration caused down-regulation of AR. Replacement with DHT and testosterone alone or in combination with estradiol caused the recovery of AR expression to control levels. A slight recovery of AR was also observed after estrogen replacement. ERα expression was decreased to nearly undetectable levels after estrogen replacement. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2973561/




DHT is a potent androgen and cannot be aromatized to oestrogens, therefore acting as a pure androgen. DHT has been proposed as an androgen replacement therapy, with possible advantages over testosterone in certain circumstances in the ageing population as well as in patients with gynaecomastia and microphallus. A potential advantage of DHT over testosterone as an androgen replacement therapy is the reported and seemingly paradoxically muted effects of DHT on prostate growth. The decreased effect of DHT compared with testosterone on the prostate gland of humans may be due to the decrease in intraprostatic oestradiol levels. The potential beneficial effect of less prostate growth after DHT requires substantiation and, if true, must be balanced against any negative effects that might occur on bone, lipids and sexuality when a pure androgen replaces treatment with an aromatizable androgen.

Dihydrotestosterone: a rationale for its use as a non-aromatizable androgen replacement therapeutic agent.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10332569

[Dynseli]

Its relevant to some degree. It's not important. DHT does more against NBE, than it could potentially do for NBE. There are other hormones that can upregulate receptors. Of course, there may be small amounts of DHT in the body, better off leaving that alone, or lowering it. Many times an antagonist also upregulates that receptor, but we don't know if this is always the case. That's why there's red reishi to lower DHT. It's way better to use progestogens, estrogens, and prolactin which all cause growth, to be agonists to their own receptors, while potentially upregulating the other two.

"Lowering DHT up-regulates the effects of estrogen in the body, and once DHT is converted to aromatase it can't be converted back to E" DHT is converted by aromatase?

This is interesting about progesterone regulation of ER, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7629427 .

There was a database somewhere, where it showed which hormones interacted in what way with which receptors. If only that database was better made. It has a meter that goes by how many NIH studies showed an effect, rather than potency (which would be difficult if not impossible).

[Lenneth]

@ Lotus, thanks for the White Peony Recommendation, So-far I am feeling more than seeing noticeable differences with using White Peony.

On top of a slight but noticeable slowing of unwanted hair regrowth I've been feeling the sensations of fat relocation more frequently and newly in my backside as well (that one feels a bit different though, think the tingly sensation with also the warmth/heat of a heat pack)

Also my Buds became sore again much much sooner than with anything else.

I do have one question for you Lotus, when did you (or what size were you) when you started using PC?
I noticed it was on most of your programs and am curious.
(Yes I do have some, but have not used it yet)

[Lotus]

@ Lotus, thanks for the White Peony Recommendation, So-far I am feeling more than seeing noticeable differences with using White Peony.

That's great news Lenneth,

On top of a slight but noticeable slowing of unwanted hair regrowth I've been feeling the sensations of fat relocation more frequently and newly in my backside as well (that one feels a bit different though, think the tingly sensation with also the warmth/heat of a heat pack)

That's cool too, imo it indicates a shift in the T/E ratio favoring E of course.

Also my Buds became sore again much much sooner than with anything else.

Glandular tissue is always more painful than fat tissue, don't forget to massage and break up it for the growth process, (yup!, it's gonna hurt lol)

I do have one question for you Lotus, when did you (or what size were you) when you started using PC?
I noticed it was on most of your programs and am curious.
(Yes I do have some, but have not used it yet)

I think I was a B-cup when I started using PC, I applied it directly to the breasts 3-4x times a week (I was greedy, lol). My thinking was the elongation and side branching PC would bring, of course I was taking 3000mg of PM at the time. When I found out that PC off-sets E, I backed it down to 2-3x times per week. Is it worth the extra aggression it will bring?, honestly? 50/50 I guess.