This is interesting about progesterone regulation of ER, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7629427 .

Estrogen induction of this protein was inhibited by at least 70% in T47D cells exposed to R5020 for 24 hours before estrogen administration and by about 25% in MCF-7 cells under the same conditions.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

70% is a big number!

There was a database somewhere, where it showed which hormones interacted in what way with which receptors. If only that database was better made. It has a meter that goes by how many NIH studies showed an effect, rather than potency (which would be difficult if not impossible).

I vaguely remember this or something similar, I might have it, maybe!

"Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) or dexamethasone (DEX) had no effect on ER sites" but effects on normal cells and cancer cells are different, except when it comes to regulation. I missed this. It was another study where I saw DHT regulate a non androgenic receptor. Ill just go with this quote above.

Glandular tissue is always more painful than fat tissue, don't forget to massage and break up it for the growth process, (yup!, it's gonna hurt lol)

Yes, I know, been there before, and actually glad to get back to it.

I do have one question for you Lotus, when did you (or what size were you) when you started using PC?
I noticed it was on most of your programs and am curious.
(Yes I do have some, but have not used it yet)

I think I was a B-cup when I started using PC, I applied it directly to the breasts 3-4x times a week (I was greedy, lol). My thinking was the elongation and side branching PC would bring, of course I was taking 3000mg of PM at the time. When I found out that PC off-sets E, I backed it down to 2-3x times per week. Is it worth the extra aggression it will bring?, honestly? 50/50 I guess.

You applied it to your breasts? I've heard that was a big no-no and can shrink them....

Glandular tissue is always more painful than fat tissue, don't forget to massage and break up it for the growth process, (yup!, it's gonna hurt lol)

Yes, I know, been there before, and actually glad to get back to it.

I do have one question for you Lotus, when did you (or what size were you) when you started using PC?
I noticed it was on most of your programs and am curious.
(Yes I do have some, but have not used it yet)

I think I was a B-cup when I started using PC, I applied it directly to the breasts 3-4x times a week (I was greedy, lol). My thinking was the elongation and side branching PC would bring, of course I was taking 3000mg of PM at the time. When I found out that PC off-sets E, I backed it down to 2-3x times per week. Is it worth the extra aggression it will bring?, honestly? 50/50 I guess.

You applied it to your breasts? I've heard that was a big no-no and can shrink them....

Yeah I've heard that too, however I've read and found that to be the opposite, at least in my case. I can only think that the other supplements I was taking countered those effects, everyone's different in their response as you already know.

One thing for sure is that PC is a strong 5 ar, and on the other hand it also off-sets estrogen dominance along with a few other bennies. I sift through everything I can about a supplement and try to make the best choice, probably one reason I had 6 or 7 programs, lol.

didn't know pc was 5ar....perhaps taking spearmint while using pc might be what I should do since I have problems with DHT....

didn't know pc was 5ar....perhaps taking spearmint while using pc might be what I should do since I have problems with DHT....

PC is a strong 5 ar inhibitor

Novel actions of progesterone: what we know today and what will be the scenario in the future?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22775208

Wow, check this out:
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/hormone-testing.html#axzz37nPCJ5R3

Scroll down to the reference section.....

didn't know pc was 5ar....perhaps taking spearmint while using pc might be what I should do since I have problems with DHT....

PC is a strong 5 ar inhibitor

Novel actions of progesterone: what we know today and what will be the scenario in the future?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22775208

Wow, check this out:
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/hormone-testing.html#axzz37nPCJ5R3

Scroll down to the reference section.....

Men & Progesterone
Why some men use progesterone:

Men need it to make testosterone and for the adrenal glands to make cortisone
Men with BPH (swelling of the prostate) and other male related problems report that they experience some relief with progesterone cream
Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics
Men report that it helps them with complexion and increases energy
It is believed to help balance the estrogens that build in a man's body
because progesterone levels drop, estradiol levels rise, and testosterone changes in form in older men
Adding progesterone back into the body helps restore normal inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase, thus preventing testosterone from changing into dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which stimulates proliferation of prostate cells
If men have low progesterone levels their estradiol levels can increase. This increase can lead to cancer of the prostate, just as it leads to breast and uterine cancer in women.

http://www.vienuetestosterone.com/reference/progesterone.asp

didn't know pc was 5ar....perhaps taking spearmint while using pc might be what I should do since I have problems with DHT....

PC is a strong 5 ar inhibitor

Novel actions of progesterone: what we know today and what will be the scenario in the future?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22775208

Wow, check this out:
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/hormone-testing.html#axzz37nPCJ5R3

Scroll down to the reference section.....

Men & Progesterone
Why some men use progesterone:

Men need it to make testosterone and for the adrenal glands to make cortisone
Men with BPH (swelling of the prostate) and other male related problems report that they experience some relief with progesterone cream
Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics
Men report that it helps them with complexion and increases energy
It is believed to help balance the estrogens that build in a man's body
because progesterone levels drop, estradiol levels rise, and testosterone changes in form in older men
Adding progesterone back into the body helps restore normal inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase, thus preventing testosterone from changing into dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which stimulates proliferation of prostate cells
If men have low progesterone levels their estradiol levels can increase. This increase can lead to cancer of the prostate, just as it leads to breast and uterine cancer in women.

http://www.vienuetestosterone.com/reference/progesterone.asp

So it's the Opposite, and helps Inhibit 5ar...?

Red Clover has similer effects than Fenugreek?

Yes BUT progesterone also downregulates E receptors at least in women or bio males with a female hormonal balance But Im talking about bio identical oral P caps that would be much stronger than PC cream...

How that pertains to NBE and bio males though I donno

I do know despite having normal but no doubt lowered T levels and normal levels of E at least on a blood test I also had a good start with breast growth and feminization on NBE