[Karren]

I'd be happy if I could fluff mine up! lol... I think your doing an amazing job! Gives me a new target to shoot for!

[myboobs]

rub in my face !!
we love you . you great big nana
you are an inspiration to many here

[Jenniferlove]

Unbelievable! You're having more success than most of us females on here! Can't believe my eyes!

[Lotus]

I'm looking to try a few different anti-androgens in the new year,

Reishi (Ganoderma lucidum)
Red reishi, commonly known as LingZhi in Chinese, is a mushroom thought to have many health benefits. In a research study exploring the anti-androgenic effects of 20 species of mushrooms, reishi mushrooms had the strongest action in inhibiting testosterone (3). That study found that reishi mushrooms significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony (Paeonia lactiflora)
Chinese peony is a widely grown ornamental plant with several hundred selected cultivars. Many of the cultivars have double flowers with the stamens modified into additional petals. White peony has been important in traditional Chinese medicine and has been shown to affect human androgen levels in vitro. In a 1991 study in the American Journal of Chinese Medicine Takeuchi et al described the effects of paeoniflorin, a compound found in white peony that inhibited the production of testosterone and promoted the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen (7). To date, there have been no studies that translate or explore the clinical effects.

Chaste Tree (Vitex agnus-castus)
Chaste tree (or chasteberry) is a native of the Mediterranean region and is traditionally used to correct hormone imbalances. In ancient times, it was believed to be an anaphrodisiac, hence the name chaste tree. Clinical studies have demonstrated effectiveness of medications produced from extract of the plant in the management of premenstrual syndrome (PMS) and cyclical mastalgia (14). The mechanism of action is presumed to be via dopaminergic effects resulting in changes of prolactin secretion from the anterior pituitary. At low doses, it blocks the activation of D2 receptors in the brain by competitive binding, causing a slight increase in prolactin release. In higher concentrations, the binding activity is sufficient to reduce the release of prolactin (15).

Reduction in prolactin levels affects FSH and estrogen levels in females and testosterone levels in men. There is as yet no information regarding its efficacy in endocrine disease states such as PCOS, however, one small-scale study has demonstrated this prolactin reducing effect in a group of healthy males, and the implication is that it could be of use in mild hyperprolactinemia (16, 17). One could also theorize that it could be refined for use as a male contraceptive, because testosterone reduction should reduce libido and sperm production. This topic is further explored in a review by Grant & Anawalt (18).


I know a lot of us are on Spearmint, if we look closely at spearmint we can find some research in regards to this: Its anti-androgenic properties reduce the level of free testosterone in the blood, while leaving total testosterone and DHEAS unaffected, as demonstrated in a study from Turkey by Akdogan and colleagues

http://endometabol.com/?page=article&article_id=3644
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693613/


This is the question I'm seeking clarification on,

Question:
I have heard this through hearsay but would like some verification. Could someone with high free testosterone have plenty of excess to be converting that to estrogen?  Anyone got any papers on this?
Answered:

Yes, absolutely.

That's why bodybuilders use aromatase inhibitors along with their supplemented testosterone; inhibitors of the enzyme which converts testosterone into estrogen. Aromatase inhibitors are also prescribed along with testosterone replacement therapy to men, to keep them from developing feminine traits.

Every time I've (unsuccessfully) experimented with ingesting hormones to elevate testosterone it has resulted in increased feminine traits. Such as adiposity around nipples, also known as gynecomastia.

Just check http://en.wikipedia....atase_inhibitor and view the references; or do your own search for "androgen elevated estrogens men" or something similar.

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase_inhibitor  AIs are taken to either block the production of estrogen or block the action of estrogen on receptors.

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase Aromatase, also called estrogen synthetase or estrogen synthase, is an enzyme responsible for a key step in the biosynthesis of estrogens.

The bold text is to identify the key reasons to consider

[Igotboobs]

I am so fucking jealous lotus simply amazing....

[MonikaT]

I've had no luck finding white peony as a supplement. I can only seem to find teas, and I don't want to mess with teas.

You might also want to look into DIM. http://www.jbc.org/content/278/23/21136.full

[Lotus]

Good idea, if where promoting the effects estrogen this could only be beneficial once in the liver.

Both men and women produce estrogen. Estrogens perform beneficial activities in the human body for both sexes; however, how the body metabolizes (breaks down) estrogen is significant for continued good health.

DIM (diindolylmethane) is a natural organic compound that promotes healthy estrogen metabolism in men and women as well as increasing the body’s natural ability to burn fat. DIM is a phytochemical naturally found in small amounts in cruciferous vegetables such as cabbage, cauliflower, and broccoli and that has subsequently been synthesized into a convenient, easy-to-swallow pharmaceutical grade nutritional supplement.

Supplementation of DIM promotes the effective metabolism of estrogen by helping the body turn estradiol into helpful metabolites. These helpful metabolites can aid the body in resisting uncontrolled cell growth and the formation of tumors, effect bone health, and promote weight loss by encouraging healthy levels of the hormones that activate enzymes to stimulate lipolysis—the release of stored fat. Properly balanced estrogen levels are instrumental in general hormonal health and well-being.

Choosing the Right DIM Supplement
As DIM is poorly absorbed by the body be sure to use a microencapsulated DIM, a patented formulation which enhances absorption and assimilation.

Healthy estrogen metabolism begins in the liver. It’s vital that you supply your liver cells with the nutrients it needs in order to accomplish the metabolic reactions that are required for maintaining estrogens in the correct, healthy form. When estrogen is present in the wrong form, it has been shown to increase the risk of auto-immune disease, breast, and uterine cancers1.

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolite
http://www.drcederquist.com/weight-loss-...olism.aspx
http://www.restorehc.com/healthnews/blog...en-and-men

[peggy]

Lotus, what do you think about Saw Palmetto? Does it work more anti-androgenic than e.g. Spearmint? I need a supplement that will also help with hair loss.

[jacp114]

You can get white peony as bai shao in TCM, which is an excellent way to increase aromatase(converstion of testosterone to estrogen)

Here is a link for some:
http://www.chineseherbsdirect.com/product_info.php?products_id=995&gclid=CPW8tI-g27sCFWMV7Aod4mkApw

Also, spearmint is a solid anti-androgen.

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Also, if you want to take some of this to another level, you can purchase research chems. BUT BE AWARE OF THE SIDE EFFECTS AND IMPACT!

Research chems are going to do similar things as the herbs just waaay more potent and focused. It's what they are usually derived from, and it's just one specific part of the herb segmented out and turned into a chem.

Generally a challenge for breast growth, and especially in men is going to be their testosterone converting into DHT(the most potent androgen).

Finasteride and it's powerful cousin Dutasteride both inhibit 5ar, which is what converts testosterone to DHT. This has been a treatment for men going bald and has worked, but as a side effect many men have noticed their sex drive drop, gynecomastia(BREAST GROWTH), and other feminization. With less 5ar, all the testerone gets converted to estrogen.

Flutamide also is a major antiandrogen, and a side effect is breast growth when given to men.
Spironolactone is also an anti-androgen, and you can get it topically fairly easily. I imagine you could apply this to your breasts.

Bicalutamide blocks androgen receptors. Here is a quick excerpt from wikipedia:
Blockade of androgens receptors by bicalutamide in the brain will eliminate the negative feedback loop of testosterone on the release of luteinizing hormone (LH). This in turn will lead to a dramatic increase in testosterone and estrogen levels. Bicalutamide treatment will block the effects of rising testosterone levels, but the effect of rising estrogen levels will remain unopposed and lead to feminizing effects, the most notable one being gynecomastia, which is often painful.

Also in my research I've found there is a huge link between insulin, IGF, estrogen and breast growth/feminization. I'm not exactly sure, but just watching the womens forum, this forum and the research papers I read, it seems like there is something missing with just maxing out the estrogens.

I think the link between growth hormone, insulin and estrogens is most highlighted in macromastia cases. This shows up though with the use of Bovine ovaries, which is why I think it worked so well for Cheryll.

Still doing research though.

Just throwing this out there. I'll probably do a post with the list of herbs, chems, etc that I have worked out.

[Lotus]

Hi Peggy,
Do you have an iron deficiency?

Iron supplements. In some women, iron deficiency could be a cause of hair loss. Your clinician may test your iron level, particularly if you're a vegetarian, have a history of anemia, or have heavy menstrual bleeding. Iron supplements are recommended if a woman's iron level is less than 70 nanograms per milliliter. However, there's no reliable evidence that iron supplementation is helpful for female pattern hair loss.

What kind off hair loss are you experiencing?
[attachment=4999]Patterns of female hair loss

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter...-hair-loss
Clinicians use the Ludwig Classification to describe female pattern hair loss. Type I is minimal thinning that can be camouflaged with hair styling techniques. Type II is characterized by decreased volume and noticeable widening of the mid-line part. Type III describes diffuse thinning, with a see-through appearance on the top of the scalp.

One of the more documented uses of saw palmetto for women is the treatment of hirsutism, a condition in which women have excessive hair growth. Many of these women also have high levels of androgens, male sex hormones. The hair growth tends to follow the same patterns on the body as typical male hair growth, such as the upper lip, breasts, and the back. A standardized extract of saw palmetto taken daily may be beneficial for providing anti-androgenic effects and treating the condition. Moreover, taking saw palmetto for hair growth is possibility beneficial for treating thinning hair on the head.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-are-the-ben...-women.htm

Does it work more anti-androgenic than e.g. Spearmint? I need a supplement that will also help with hair loss.

It is possible that sustained daily use of spearmint tea could result in further abatement of hirsutism.In women, hirsutism and male pattern baldness are due to an enhanced effect of androgens on the hair follicle, which in turn can be caused by an increased supply of bio-available androgens and/or an increased sensitivity of the target organ to androgens.

In women, hirsutism and male pattern baldness are due to an enhanced effect of androgens on the hair follicle, which in turn can be caused by an increased supply of bio-available androgens and/or an increased sensitivity of the target organ to androgens. There are no definite correlations between circulating androgens and the degree of their biological effects. Although in most cases the hyperandrogenemia is not severe, the patients should be treated with antiandrogens in order to avoid progression of the disturbance and its consequences on metabolism and fertility. Sometimes hirsutism can be observed as a clinical sign of a defect in the steroid biosynthesis or of Cushing's syndrome. In severe hyperandrogenemia with a testosterone level of more than 2 ng/ml and a DHEA-S level of more than 8000 ng/ml, tumors of the ovaries or the adrenal glands have to be excluded.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/

Saw Palmetto for Women
Saw Palmetto for women is just as beneficial as for men. There are a host of compounds in the fruit of this plant which boost female hormonal health. They include:

Phytosterols: Beta-sitosterol, stigmasterol and campesterol are the main phytosterols.

Healthy Fatty acids: Lauric acid, oleic acid, palmitic acid and myristic acid are the main ones.

Saw Palmetto for women - the most common benefit attributed to Saw Palmetto is the inhibition of an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase. Many women, particularly during and after menopause, suffer a lack of Testosterone. Symptoms are many, including low libido, poor sexual response, muscle weakness, lack of endurance and importantly - loss of zest for life!

5-alpha-reductase converts Testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Excessive DHT production can result in hair loss, low libido, poor sexual response and acne. By inhibiting 5-alpha-reductase, sufficient Testosterone can benefit female as well as male vitality and sexual health.
http://www.peak-health-now.com/saw-palme...women.html
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I was trying to find out about claims of SP causing cellulite but came up with observations more than fact!....sorry for the long drawn out. , I just try to get the whole picture before understanding the benefits, so yes it's beneficial. However I don't use it anymore, I don't have hair loss (knock on wood) so my goal is to aromatize whatever Testosterone I do have left floating around,lol


Closed thread in Admin:
Thanks Lilly, this was very helpful! I re-visited my research and found that saw palmetto blocks the formation of DHT, the more potent form of testosterone, so that was what I was thinking of...I am going to stick with it as it seems to have multiple benefits for me and since I do work out and eat right I think I'll be okay. I also read that it stimulates appetite, and that's the kind of info I was looking for--to say something 'causes' weight gain without saying how (i.e. makes you more lethargic, increases appetite, makes you retain water, etc.) is misleading, because those things can be counteracted. And believe me you, I am already fighting the good fight against cellulite with dry brushing, scrubbing massage with exfoliants, internal cleansing and the like, so yes, I think I'll stay on top of that. Thanks for the encouragement, I am not looking for a miracle, just slightly larger, firmer breasts. And to everyone out there, this is a great forum, I have learned so much already--don't ever forget that women are beautiful in all their varied shapes and sizes and we are harder on ourselves than men will ever be! Don't let pop culture with it's relentless depictions of huge breasts discourage you from loving your body exactly as it is... Much love to all the ladies here!
______________________________________________
Sorry to make your eyes bleed,lol-

read till your eyes bleed.

xx