[GoneGirl]

Clara,

I'll turn it around - why do you then persist in advising people as though they were like you?

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm advising people to do anything. I simply am pointing out my circumstances and my solution as another example of the uniqueness of our individual circumstances.

I'm getting a bit tired of you treating me as though I were somehow aberrant and a one-off phenomenon. I'm not the only person here who is able to cope with PM alone.

Bryony, as I recall, you are a self-proclaimed autogynephile. There may very well be others who are as well, but I can't remember anyone else claiming so. Aside from that, of course there others who are trying to cope with their GD with (and without) the use of herbs. I wouldn't say, however, that most are in a happy place. Many are in a holding pattern, looking for a safe place to land and not finding one. Still, I agree that there are many others who are able to cope with their GD, and have for years. I have friends who have been cross dressing for over a decade while having no desire to transition genders. Gender identity is infinitely variable, so everyone needs to find his/her own solution.

I can only go on the evidence. To me, hurricane's problems seem to be addressable in less drastic ways than you seem to prefer.

I have almost no knowledge of Hurricane's issues. He has written very little about it so far. You may have inferred that I'm prescribing a solution for him, but you would be wrong. You on the other hand are suggesting a treatment based on the same scant knowledge of his situation which appears to be very complicated, far beyond a simple disagreement between him and his wife about his gender expression.

It is up to hurricane to consider what is most likely to be beneficial to the situation.

Of course. So you have described what has worked for you, and I have described what worked for me. Finding that safe landing place is a process of self-discovery. If I was to give advice to Hurricane, or to anyone for that matter, it would be to follow the WPATH SOC (standards of care). Experimenting with DIY HRT is not what I would recommend given the tenuousness of Hurricane's situation.

I think you should provide advice to people seeking it from your own perspective and experience and not judge the advice of others for whom it has worked.

Your program works for you, but it didn't work for me. That's a fact. But, can either of us claim that what worked for us will work for Hurricane? Of course not. You are free to give any advice to want to others, and I'm free to call that advice into question. Again, I don't think enough is known at this point to make any assessments about what is the best course to follow.

A major point is, your kids are grown up and have left home. Your wife is, presumably, menopausal. Neither of these things apply to hurricane, so the situation is entirely different. He has more to lose than you do, who is, forgive me, a bit closer to the last lap (as am I, so I'm not being rude).

Again, you are jumping to the false conclusion that I am prescribing a solution for Hurricane based on my own circumstances. Hurricane's circumstances are so far from mine that my path could never be the one that he takes at this point in his life. So why did I take the time to describe my situation and course of action? Because I wanted to make it clear that depending on the degree of his cross gender identity and the seriousness of his GD, experimenting with PM could lead to something he's not prepared to deal with at this point. It could make matters worse.

You say my methods did not work for you. Maybe, but your situation was such that you did not need to persevere. Your income is a lot better than most people, enabling you to get FFS which is a major factor in "passing"; you have a pliant wife who lets you get on with things; and you are not the first person that I've seen here who, once they get to dressing up regularly ,throw a hissy fit at the idea of getting back into drab. All in all, it's so much easier to go with the flow, especially with all the encouragement that is available (apart from me - sorry.)

This paragraph is down right offensive to me. You presume so much that you have no knowledge or understanding of. I have been 'persevering' for almost my whole life. I was terrified to come out to my spouse. I had to first accept the possibility that I would lose my marriage, my home, my children like so many others have. I tried your method, and it didn't work, not because I didn't persevere, but because I'm not you. How do you come off labeling my wife 'pliant'? Do you know her? Do you understand how she thinks? Do you know the depth of her love for me? How can you sit in judgment of my gender identity by disparaging my own sense of who I am. That shows such arrogance, Bryony.

My feeling is that the only difference between you and me is the pink fog you got by constant exposure to girly things.

You have no idea what your talking about, and I have no clue as to how or why you would make such a statement except as a conscious attempt to question my motives and the sincerity of my struggle to deal with my gender issues.

You can talk transsexual 'til the cows come home, but I'm quite sure that I would be the same, (a) if I was allowed to and (b) if I didn't have the kind of hypercritical eye that looks in the mirror, induces a wry chuckle and a "naahhhh...."

I don't know about your GD, Bryony, you haven't shared much of your story with us. I do know that if you were me, you wouldn't try to justify your decision not to transition by cutting down those of us who have. It's fine with me that you've taken the path you've chosen. It works for you, so congratulations, you're better off than most.

Give me the megabucks for a Nina Arsenault workover, a 30-year rejuvenation formula and a family as amenable as yours and I'd be right up there.

There are thousands of transsexual people who don't have the bodies, the resources, or the support of family that you claim prevents you from transitioning. They still transition against all rational thinking. Why? Because they have to. That tells me you are not a transsexual. Be glad of that, my friend, it is sparing you a lot of hardship and anguish.

Here in the real world, where Hurricane lives, I respectfully suggest he should try it my way first.

Suggest away, but hopefully this exchange will provide Hurricane with another perspective to help him make choices that are right for him.

Clara

[Miranda-nata-est]

Clara,

I'll turn it around - why do you then persist in advising people as though they were like you?

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm advising people to do anything. I simply am pointing out my circumstances and my solution as another example of the uniqueness of our individual circumstances.

I'm getting a bit tired of you treating me as though I were somehow aberrant and a one-off phenomenon. I'm not the only person here who is able to cope with PM alone.

Bryony, as I recall, you are a self-proclaimed autogynephile. There may very well be others who are as well, but I can't remember anyone else claiming so. Aside from that, of course there others who are trying to cope with their GD with (and without) the use of herbs. I wouldn't say, however, that most are in a happy place. Many are in a holding pattern, looking for a safe place to land and not finding one. Still, I agree that there are many others who are able to cope with their GD, and have for years. I have friends who have been cross dressing for over a decade while having no desire to transition genders. Gender identity is infinitely variable, so everyone needs to find his/her own solution.

I can only go on the evidence. To me, hurricane's problems seem to be addressable in less drastic ways than you seem to prefer.

I have almost no knowledge of Hurricane's issues. He has written very little about it so far. You may have inferred that I'm prescribing a solution for him, but you would be wrong. You on the other hand are suggesting a treatment based on the same scant knowledge of his situation which appears to be very complicated, far beyond a simple disagreement between him and his wife about his gender expression.

It is up to hurricane to consider what is most likely to be beneficial to the situation.

Of course. So you have described what has worked for you, and I have described what worked for me. Finding that safe landing place is a process of self-discovery. If I was to give advice to Hurricane, or to anyone for that matter, it would be to follow the WPATH SOC (standards of care). Experimenting with DIY HRT is not what I would recommend given the tenuousness of Hurricane's situation.

I think you should provide advice to people seeking it from your own perspective and experience and not judge the advice of others for whom it has worked.

Your program works for you, but it didn't work for me. That's a fact. But, can either of us claim that what worked for us will work for Hurricane? Of course not. You are free to give any advice to want to others, and I'm free to call that advice into question. Again, I don't think enough is known at this point to make any assessments about what is the best course to follow.

A major point is, your kids are grown up and have left home. Your wife is, presumably, menopausal. Neither of these things apply to hurricane, so the situation is entirely different. He has more to lose than you do, who is, forgive me, a bit closer to the last lap (as am I, so I'm not being rude).

Again, you are jumping to the false conclusion that I am prescribing a solution for Hurricane based on my own circumstances. Hurricane's circumstances are so far from mine that my path could never be the one that he takes at this point in his life. So why did I take the time to describe my situation and course of action? Because I wanted to make it clear that depending on the degree of his cross gender identity and the seriousness of his GD, experimenting with PM could lead to something he's not prepared to deal with at this point. It could make matters worse.

You say my methods did not work for you. Maybe, but your situation was such that you did not need to persevere. Your income is a lot better than most people, enabling you to get FFS which is a major factor in "passing"; you have a pliant wife who lets you get on with things; and you are not the first person that I've seen here who, once they get to dressing up regularly ,throw a hissy fit at the idea of getting back into drab. All in all, it's so much easier to go with the flow, especially with all the encouragement that is available (apart from me - sorry.)

This paragraph is down right offensive to me. You presume so much that you have no knowledge or understanding of. I have been 'persevering' for almost my whole life. I was terrified to come out to my spouse. I had to first accept the possibility that I would lose my marriage, my home, my children like so many others have. I tried your method, and it didn't work, not because I didn't persevere, but because I'm not you. How do you come off labeling my wife 'pliant'? Do you know her? Do you understand how she thinks? Do you know the depth of her love for me? How can you sit in judgment of my gender identity by disparaging my own sense of who I am. That shows such arrogance, Bryony.

My feeling is that the only difference between you and me is the pink fog you got by constant exposure to girly things.

You have no idea what your talking about, and I have no clue as to how or why you would make such a statement except as a conscious attempt to question my motives and the sincerity of my struggle to deal with my gender issues.

You can talk transsexual 'til the cows come home, but I'm quite sure that I would be the same, (a) if I was allowed to and (b) if I didn't have the kind of hypercritical eye that looks in the mirror, induces a wry chuckle and a "naahhhh...."

I don't know about your GD, Bryony, you haven't shared much of your story with us. I do know that if you were me, you wouldn't try to justify your decision not to transition by cutting down those of us who have. It's fine with me that you've taken the path you've chosen. It works for you, so congratulations, you're better off than most.

Give me the megabucks for a Nina Arsenault workover, a 30-year rejuvenation formula and a family as amenable as yours and I'd be right up there.

There are thousands of transsexual people who don't have the bodies, the resources, or the support of family that you claim prevents you from transitioning. They still transition against all rational thinking. Why? Because they have to. That tells me you are not a transsexual. Be glad of that, my friend, it is sparing you a lot of hardship and anguish.

Here in the real world, where Hurricane lives, I respectfully suggest he should try it my way first.

Suggest away, but hopefully this exchange will provide Hurricane with another perspective to help him make choices that are right for him.

Clara

Clara,

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

It is not for us to advise, only to give examples of different paths through the maze.

Take care you,


M x

[JennaSkye]

To be honest, I'm enjoying reading both of your sides.. I hope you two can kind of.. I hate saying this.. "Agree to disagree". I respect both of you, and I hope you both can respect each others passion for wanting to help me. So, thank you.

The counselor was almost no help on Friday. We both left thinking that. It's been rough here. I've been keeping to myself for the most part, and reading a book that was recommended to me by the counselor called, "Avoidant, how to love (or leave) a dismissive partner". It's pretty good. I realized I've pushed a lot of my friends away and kind of put myself into a reclusive state. I'm definitely not that type of person, usually the bubbly, joking and laughing type. So, I've been forcing myself to hang out with friends.

I've told four friends total about what's going on with me and all four have been extremely supportive! I started taking the supplements again late last week, because the mental effects wore off almost completely. It took about twenty days total for my stress and anger to come back, even with everything going on in my life. I haven't cried yet, but yesterday I noticed little things that were making me teary eyed. Even tried putting on a sad movie.. Nothing.

Off topic:
On the "other appearance issues" sub forum, I wrote that I epilated my whole face. Beard = gone.

Have a nice night everyone!

[MissC]

Hurricane,

By keeping this secret about yourself from the beginning, you've really shot yourself in the foot. She cannot help but feel betrayed. Try to put yourself in her shoes.

TibetanPrincess explained this nicely, I think, from a woman's perspective. I don't understand the vitriol directed at her. This one drives me crazy, because it's a recurring theme in these circles. Some bloke wants to start wearing panties and growing boobs, and wonders why his wife of 20 years is upset with this new discovery... uh, hello! You've been LYING to your wife!

And it's because you've been LYING to YOURSELF for your whole life... I get that. But don't lay that at her feet!

That is not to say that your struggle is not real, or not valid. I know some here just want to say your wife is a bitch for not sympathizing 100%, but that would be a gross failure in human understanding. I'm not sure that attitude isn't outright misogyny.

So, you've found yourself in a situation that, while it may not be completely and entirely of your own making, you've still put yourself in because of your guilt, shame, whatever issues led to you hide part of yourself from your spouse. Regardless of the solution, you need to start with understanding your responsibility here.

I'm not going to tell you one way or the other about splitting. I don't know what could happen. If your relationship is toxic and hurtful to your children, then it needs to be ended. Or, if things can be worked out, work them out. Put the kids first, obviously... you made them, you're responsible to society for raising them. They should not have to suffer for your bad decision making.

There are many different ways to find joy in life.

If I could tell all young other-gendered folks one thing, it would be, be honest. I have always disclosed my stuff right up front... which has *never* chased off a prospective lover.

(With wives, it's not the gender issues... 99% of the time, it's the lying, the hiding, the betrayal, the sudden complete change of personality of the person she *thought* she knew. No matter how awful the wife, she's perfectly within her right to be angry, at least at first.)

And... just to throw this out there... I sense some unresolved childhood issues of your own. Work on those first. My suggestion (keep in mind free advice is always worth what you pay for it!) would be to go on with whatever supplements keep you calm; learn a new coping mechanism (such as meditation, smoking cannabis, jogging, building model airplanes -- whatever works for you); and continue counseling for a time -- with a humble approach. It's not her fault; remember that.

Unless she actually is a crazy person (narcissistic, borderline, etc)... then calmly disregard my post, and run like hell.

Realistically, there's no good easy path here... and try to remember that thing about other sides and greener grass.

[MissC]

There are thousands of transsexual people who don't have the bodies, the resources, or the support of family that you claim prevents you from transitioning. They still transition against all rational thinking. Why? Because they have to. That tells me you are not a transsexual. Be glad of that, my friend, it is sparing you a lot of hardship and anguish.

Ah, the old "one true Scotsman" logical fallacy!

You're only one of us if you're incapable of dealing with life until you have your penis cut off!

Basically, that just means you're crazier or more damaged than the one who manages to hold it together in less drastic ways.

Let me break down the fallacious thinking:

Say we have two diabetic individuals, Type 1 diabetic since birth. (This is based on two very different real individuals I personally know/knew)

One goes with the conventional option. He listens to the doctors, tests his blood sugar all the time, uses artificial sweeteners and insulin... and eventually ends up fat, crippled, and possibly with extremities amputated... and dead before 60. The usual path of a diabetic.

And let's say Diabetic #2 takes a different road. He does his homework, and finds out that if he eats a diet high in protein and animal fats, and low in starch and sugars, he can live a healthy lifestyle without insulin shots, without pain, without obesity. In fact, he'll appear to be an ordinary, healthy man, and you wouldn't know he was diabetic unless he told you.

In your model, Clara, the second man isn't diabetic.

But of course, he is just as diabetic as the first... he's just learned a better way to cope.

You are like the first diabetic... with the added complication of feeling morally superior about it.

[GoneGirl]

The term 'Transsexual' is a special subclass under the all encompassing 'Transgender' umbrella.



A transsexual person has a strong cross gender identity. That individual's gender identity falls far to the right (female) side of the gender spectrum.



Transsexual women do not identify as men, and being forced to live as one is impossible to bear for long. To live as their birth assigned gender is so uncomfortable that they sooner or later transition to living full-time as their internally sensed gender. It includes modifying their physical bodies (often including genital surgery) to better match their inner self-concept.

Transsexual people will often transition at any cost, or if prevented from doing so, fall into a pattern of deep depression, self-destructive behavior, or even commit suicide. If someone is able to find a stable balance between their male and female gender personalities, they most likely fall more toward the middle of the gender spectrum. They are transgender, certainly, but NOT transsexual.

If one is not a transsexual person, and can find a way to cope with their gender issues, that certainly is the appropriate course of action to take because it avoids the often high personal cost that accompanies MTF or FTM transition.

Clara

[SarahSchilling]

I don't get the incessant need to label one's way of living, or a 'solution' (to gender issues, in this case) as being superior to another's.

I guess it's kind of par for the course around here. I'll go back to taking these kinds of posts as the ego inflating farces that they truly are.

[GoneGirl]

I don't get the incessant need to label one's way of living, or a 'solution' (to gender issues, in this case) as being superior to another's.

I guess it's kind of par for the course around here. I'll go back to taking these kinds of posts as the ego inflating farces that they truly are.

Are you are referring to my post, Sarah?

[SarahSchilling]

I don't get the incessant need to label one's way of living, or a 'solution' (to gender issues, in this case) as being superior to another's.

I guess it's kind of par for the course around here. I'll go back to taking these kinds of posts as the ego inflating farces that they truly are.

Are you are referring to my post, Sarah?

I'm referring to a practice, and not singling out anyone!

Lol

[Miranda-nata-est]

Can I toss in a bit of homegrown observational psychology .. I might well be speaking rubbish here but:- .

I do wonder whether what we are observing here is the differences between fundamentally male and female mindsets... It is my understanding that there is a view, not universally shared, amongst psychologists which suggest that one of the differences between the male and female methods of processing information is that the male tends to see things in absolutes, in black and whites, while the female tends to experience the world around them as varying shades of grey.

Personally, I have experienced a dramatic shift in my thinking patterns having been taking hormones for some 7 months or so.

I used to hold the view, and espouse it to others ad nauseum, that every situation could, if analysed to a deep enough level, be reduced to a black or white position - this gave me a tidy, compartmentalised and ultimately simplistic mindset which allowed me to make sweeping generalisations and judgements about everything and everyone around me.

Now however I have found that, with no deliberate change of attitude on my part, that this has all gone out of the window. I now view the world as almost entirely made up of greys. I recognise that according to my mindset now, there is actually very little than can so easily be boiled down to black or white. This makes for a much more complicated and confusing but ultimately much more rewarding world around and about - it also means I now don't make sweeping judgements about others and am much more tolerant and able to see often many perspectives to situations where before I saw just one.

The world would be a much happier place if we could all embrace greys but, a year ago, I would have shouted this post down as ridiculous.

Just a thought

Miranda