[Naomiko]

It's kind of a double edge sword. If you want to ensure a potential partner is trans-friendly, aren't there other ways to bring up the topic to avoid a potential ugly situation. You don't need to stand in front of the gun to find out if it's loaded. Could watch a movie with a transgender character or storyline. If they're intolerant it'll come out, or at least open the door to the subject for discussion.

[Lenneth]

I ran across this interesting post in Autostraddle Gender section:

Please Stop Saying That Trans Women Were “Born Boys”

I want to make a few things perfectly clear. Trans women are women. Period. End of story. We’re not “women who used to be men.” We’re not “men who identify as women.” We’re not “males who identify as women.” We’re not “men who became women.” WE ARE WOMEN. Stop putting qualifiers on our womanhood. It’s offensive, hurtful and cruel to insinuate otherwise. Our past, present, and futures are ours to define and no one else’s. Even if we didn’t figure out that we were trans until well into our adult lives, it absolutely does not mean that we were ever boys or men. Many trans women feel that they’ve always been girls, or at the very least, that they’ve never been boys. You don’t have any right to tell me, or any other trans person, that they were ever a particular gender, just as I have no right to tell you what gender you are. A trans woman who was obligated to present as male for most of her young life is was no more “born a man” than a lesbian who was obligated to date men for most of her young life “used to be straight.”

I agree with the author. When I was born, the attending physician took a hurried look and declared that I was a boy. 99 out of 100 times the doc got it right, but not that time. I was a girl, and I've had to live with the doctor's mistake for most of my life. So, when people say of me, "She was born a male, but identifies as female." I correct them: I was assigned male at birth, but I've always been female.

Clara

Yep, Applies also to ones like myself (Intrsexed). also many other negative comments & names.

My dream is that society in general will come to accept trans women as women first, transgender second, if at all. Again, I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, but it's my hope for future generations.

it would be nice, personally I would like to at least see people doing a bit of research into things before just knee-jerk attacking it.

With the Internet this should not still be the the normal reaction to something being different than what you are used to.

I do find it VERY offense to have someone say, "You were born a male, and will always be a male!" They buy into the definition of 'male' as anyone with a Y chromosome. There's so much more that goes into establishing one's sex and gender than that.

Clara

someone tried that kind of comment on a youtube video I saw once about people born Intersexed, the replies were along the lines of "Actually I was born as both dimwit, try watching the video before commenting next time."

On another note, their are genetic females who are XY, which is also a good counter argument.

[WantAPair]

My dream is that society in general will come to accept trans women as women first, transgender second, if at all. Again, I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, but it's my hope for future generations.

it would be nice, personally I would like to at least see people doing a bit of research into things before just knee-jerk attacking it.

With the Internet this should not still be the the normal reaction to something being different than what you are used to.

It's what I call, "bug mentality". 9 times out of 10, someone sees a bug of ANY kind other than maybe a butterfly, what's the FIRST thing they do?? KILL IT!! WHY?? Because it's way different from them!! Basically, because, to them, it's ugly!! MUST kill ANYTHING that's different or ugly!! They simply aren't taught that other creatures have every right to be here, too!! I can see smacking a mosquito, they have no qualms about biting us and possibly infecting us with some nasty disease, so, I have no qualms about killing them before they get the chance to do it! I SERIOUSLY doubt that the half a dozen of them I MIGHT kill per year is going to greatly diminish the food supply of whatever eats them. Especially not after being on the beach in Erie a few years ago where literally THOUSANDS of them were lying dead on the walk around the concession stand!! I don't bother with ants unless they are in the house. Same with any other bug, except a ladybug, firefly (lightning bug), butterfly, spider or those long-legged caterpillar type bugs. Millipedes, I think they're called. As far as I know, they aren't harming anything. Those, I'll either try to wrangle back outside, or I'll try to catch them and then release them outside. Spiders can stay because they're helping to get rid of the other bugs.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason people are so quick to hurt or kill ANYTHING that's not the same as them!! I'll bet if they'd put aside their stupid, childish, petty prejudices, and just TRIED to look and allow transgendered people be themselves, they'd probably make a LOT of good friends!! What's better, making friends or enemies?? Making friends is the EASY part, making enemies is something you have to TRY to do!! Right, Lotus? You & I used to be good friends when we first got here 2 years ago!
"Hey! I see you've already got 65 posts! Pretty soon you'll be caught up to me!"
"Yep! I might get up to 75 in the next day or two."
"I can't wait `til I get up to 250, then I'll be a Posting Freak!"
"Yeah, I guess so, Lotus! I wonder what happens when you get 500 or 1000?"
"I don't know, but I guess we'll find out some day! Good luck!"
"Thank you! You, too!! :-)"
Now, it seems you can't WAIT to shut me down!! What did I ever do to you?
Anyway, I JUST don't understand WHY it bugs them SOOOO MUCH that someone got a sex change!! What could it POSSIBLY be to them???? Big deal!! Bruce Jenner's getting a sex change!! Suddenly it affects EVERYONE on the planet, and most of them HAVE to hate him!! I think someone should do a man/woman on the street interview with people and just flat out ASK them, "HOW does so & so getting a sex change matter at ALL to you? WHY does it bother you so much?? WHY is this SO much more important to you than the kind of terrible shit going on in the world today?? You'll go OUT of your way to raise a BIG stink about someone getting a sex change (basically doing something TO THEMSELVES that'll make THEM feel MUCH better about themselves, like it's ANY of YOUR business, but you won't day a WORD about how the governments of the world are fucking us over ROYALLY EVERY SINGLE DAY!! WHY does what THEY do to THEIR OWN BODY, JUST to make themselves happy, matter to you??" I doubt any of them can come up with a GOOD answer!!!! Something besides, "Well, I might end up on a date with one, not knowing it, and then I'd turn gay because I was actually getting it on with a GUY!!" But, guess who's watching all those pornos where GIRLS are kissing, licking and having sex with each other!! THAT doesn't COUNT, hunh? Because it's GIRLS! Yeah, and because it's for YOUR entertainment, Chuckles!!!!

[Miranda-nata-est]

The reality of the situation is that close up, most of us are going to be discernible as having one-time been encapsulated in a fully male torso. At a distance and in casual close up, we may just about get away with it but in any kind of close contact, it will be obvious. Even with the biggest budgets thrown at change and with the best make up/styling available, it is almost always possible to tell.

We are at best just giving signals to the world as to the gender we wish to be known as, we are not really going to fool those close to us. Those signals are initially largely down to the clothing, styling and trappings we wear and carry (although women look for different features than men) but of course body shape and face carries its part. Take away all that add on stuff and how many of us would then be treated as female when walking down the street even after all the surgery in the world? Subtlety is paramount if we are not, at times, to cause an offensive reaction.



Personally, I don't have a problem with my past and don't particularly care who knows that I have made the change. I also don't care how people rationalise it to themselves or how they refer to me. I know that they just won't 'get it' - I know I wouldn't have either a few years back.


I certainly don't see any point whatsoever in creating a new world full of lies and half truths. Most of us have just escaped one of these!!!


Miranda

[GoneGirl]

There's something about transsexual women that really bugs most men. The most likely reason, in my opinion, is simply fear. One of the most basic fears of men is being tagged as 'queer'. It's been driven into boys heads from an early age, and reinforced throughout adulthood.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are NOT binary states of mind. They fall on a spectrum with a distribution conceptually like this diagram:



We all exhibit varying degrees of masculinity and femininity, but are forced to identify as men or women regardless of the mix. Women are given more freedom to express their masculinity, while men are not allowed to express their femininity. I'm rehashing stuff we all know, sorry.

So how do men fight off their inner woman, such as it is? It exists at the subconscious level and is constantly bugging us for attention. Men have to fight it off on a daily basis or be exposed as less than a real man. Coping mechanisms arise that provide temporary relief. But, the pressure only seems to get worse.

It translates into a conscious rejection of femininity. In extreme instances, it shows up as misogyny and/or transphobia. What could be more effective in deflecting one's own cross gender nature, and demonstrating one's manhood, than by attacking gay and transgender people in word and deed?

Even men who admit to cross gender proclivities will take on negative attitudes about transsexuals. How many of us secretly would love to be a beautiful woman but know it can never be for various reasons? We see others realizing their dream by transitioning and it hurts. We immediately have to construct a shield against that pain. I would, but....if only it wasn't for....I'm better than that.....it's a sin against God....anyone who does that is sick..... You've heard all the excuses.

But, one of the most common protection ploys is isolation from those who would keep one's gender issues near the surface, generating emotions which are too hard to handle.

Women, for the most part, accept me as a woman. Men, on the other hand, keep me at a distance. Fear is the reason. Fear that I might rub off on them, exposing their own feminine natures, or simply raising doubts about the purity of their manhood. It's both sad and pitiful.

Clara

[GoneGirl]

Gender identity is a hard thing to understand. What is it exactly? Before I read about the concept of gender identity the first time, it played no part in my sense of who I was. I was assigned a gender at birth, and I took that and ran with it.

What I did notice, however, is that I didn't seem to fit the stereotype of my assigned gender. I didn't relate well to many 'standard' male behaviors. Still, I didn't jump to the conclusion that I was female.

I viewed my assigned gender as simply a fact of life related to my reproductive capacity. As such, I did the best I could to live up to society's expectations of what a man should be. Many of those expectations didn't come naturally for me, and I sensed that I was inadequate as a man in many ways -- sports prowess, physical characteristics, aggressiveness, sexuality, etc. I did my best to compensate. And while I enjoyed many activities that girls/women enjoy, I didn't think that I was a woman. I simply identified as myself. But I can honestly say I was not happy.

Now I know that my myself concept was more female than male all along, and living in a male role was not a good fit for me. People's expectations of me as a man didn't match well with what I was capable of delivering as an individual. It was like running into a strong headwind morning till night.

I decided to transition to female because living as a woman matches up well will my natural personality. It even feels better to have this mediocre woman's body than the body of a man.

Transitioning has nothing to do with how I see and relate to others in the trans community. It has everything to do with fitting comfortably into the larger world and being seen and treated in a way that match up well with who I am.

I was never able to achieve harmony in my life until I decided to transition to living as the female that I've always been. And now that I am well on my way to realizing the full expression of my true gender identity, I am happy with who I am, and I find no need to project my values onto others. I don't need to validate my choices against those of other people.

Transitioning has lead me to a better place, but I don't for a minute contend that transitioning is right for all transgender people. It's an extremely difficult, painful, expensive, and risky thing to do. But for many of us, it's the only choice we have to go on living.

Clara

[Miranda-nata-est]

I have to admit that I have absolutely no idea how to define gender. I am not at all convinced there is an absolute anywhere in all this. At this time, it is impossible to define a difference between a male and female person without first defining the characteristics of a female or male personality and it is an equally impossible task to define the characteristics which define female and male without first having a defined male or female person against which to judge them. It is a catch-22 situation, circular reasoning at its limit. Furthermore, to attempt utilise any physical or mental characteristics as a gender datum based on societal norms might well be considered a largely specious argument as to so do is to fall into the trap of statistical means which are fine for populations as a whole, but meaningless at an individual level.


So, gauged against a scale without any real definitions or absolutes, why do we feel that Female is the right gender for us and why would we choose to put ourselves through the whole transition process? A very good question and one which is hard to answer in absolute terms. Others might well have a different answer, I can only speak personally about my situation and my answer is ' Because I know it is right for me'........ A reason without reason.

I do know however as one absolute in all this, that the second my system got hit with serious levels of Oestradiol and Spironolactone that my brain has awakened from its 57 year dormancy with a great yell of 'Yessss, at last!!!!!'. My life has become complete despite the difficulties which still lie ahead.

I do wonder if the only real way of empirically telling genders apart, certainly for now, is to recognise that female oriented brains operate best on oestrogen and male oriented brains on testosterone.
So maybe, just maybe, the controversial practise of allowing HRT for those males who are confused about their gender identity might after all be the correct diagnostic tool - or then again, maybe not.

Miranda

[GoneGirl]

Miranda,
For me half of my GD stemmed from the wrong body chemistry (hormones). As you experienced yourself, adjusting my T/E balance cleared up a lot of the mental stress symptoms that I (and I presumably you) have been suffering from.

The other half was/is psychological, so I suspect subjective and learned. I hated my male body. I'm not sure why, but I assume it was because it represented an obstacle to expressing my true gender ID.

Young transgender children often instinctively know they are one gender or the other. That tells me that in many cases gender ID is not learned, but rather tied to the organization of a developing brain during gestation. All transgender people probably possess a mixture of male and female brain organization. That seems pretty obvious.

When I started on HRT, my personality changed in many surprising ways. Some ways for better and others for worse. I do believe that dormant parts of my brain were activated under the influence of E while other part were deactivated in the absence of T.

I believe these brain organization differences are what account for differences in transgender people. For example, I have friends who are on estrogen and have experienced no loss of male gender awareness. They enjoy being males and living as men. Taking estrogen has no effect on that. When I started on E, my desire to preserve some semblance of masculinity disappeared entirely. I believe that a substantial part of my brain was geared toward a female gender identity given the right hormonal environment.

I think some of the conflict here a BN has to do with the difference in the amount of female identity that resides in each of us. When the gap is very large, the perceptions, behaviors, and attitudes of the other side can give rise to conflict. We no longer understand one another which can intentionally or unintentionally cause offense and resentment.

I am experiencing this myself with regard to my many CD friends. In the two years that I've know many of them, there has been no significant change in their personalities, manner of dress, voices, you name it. They have found their place on the spectrum and are happy with who they are.

I, on the other hand, have been moving so fast toward a more authentic expression of who I am, it's hard to keep up. I'm starting to resent how my progression to becoming a woman is not being acknowledged by my CD friends. They mean no harm, but no man would talk to a woman the way they talk to me, a woman. It simply means that we are drifting apart, and I have to find a new group of friends who can relate to where I am in my transition. Life doesn't stand still when you're transitioning.

I see the same thing happening here at BN. There are members who I used to be quite friendly with on this board, whereas now we seem to live in different worlds. Bad? Not really. It's understandable that values and interests would change reflecting our diverging paths.

Frankly, I was getting bored with talk about growing breasts, anyway. It's not at the top of my priority list right now. I suppose it's a sign that I should leave this forum. But, breast growth is just one small aspect of the many issues surrounding gender identity which I find very relevant. So why should I go off to another forum, like Susan's, run with an iron fist; a group that won't even acknowledging the role that herbal methods play in breast growth.

There will always be a certain percentage of people here who start out as males wanting breasts who discover that they have a stronger female gender identity than they imagined. A path to understanding those forces and how to deal with them is valuable for them. I know it was for me.

Well, I'm really rambling on here, so I'll cut it off without any pithy conclusion or final thoughts. Cheers!

[Lenneth]

My dream is that society in general will come to accept trans women as women first, transgender second, if at all. Again, I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, but it's my hope for future generations.

it would be nice, personally I would like to at least see people doing a bit of research into things before just knee-jerk attacking it.

With the Internet this should not still be the the normal reaction to something being different than what you are used to.

It's what I call, "bug mentality". 9 times out of 10, someone sees a bug of ANY kind other than maybe a butterfly, what's the FIRST thing they do?? KILL IT!! WHY?? Because it's way different from them!! Basically, because, to them, it's ugly!! MUST kill ANYTHING that's different or ugly!! They simply aren't taught that other creatures have every right to be here, too!! I can see smacking a mosquito, they have no qualms about biting us and possibly infecting us with some nasty disease, so, I have no qualms about killing them before they get the chance to do it!

hehe, I always find out what it is before deciding if it needs to be killed or not.

jumping spiders/grass spiders/wolf spiders for instance I leave alone aside from occasionally re-locating them, brown recluses/black widows I kill on sight.

There's something about transsexual women that really bugs most men. The most likely reason, in my opinion, is simply fear. One of the most basic fears of men is being tagged as 'queer'. It's been driven into boys heads from an early age, and reinforced throughout adulthood.

Ive done a good deal of research into the cause of that fear, a large amount of it in most cases comes from thier mothers & also from thier fathers who's mothers raised them to react that way.

as for the why, it is unclear but an Alpha complex does seem to be linked into it.

I have personally noticed that men who were not raised that way are far more likely to react with logic & intelligence instead of this mindless fear.

[Miranda-nata-est]

Miranda,
For me half of my GD stemmed from the wrong body chemistry (hormones). As you experienced yourself, adjusting my T/E balance cleared up a lot of the mental stress symptoms that I (and I presumably you) have been suffering from.

The other half was/is psychological, so I suspect subjective and learned. I hated my male body. I'm not sure why, but I assume it was because it represented an obstacle to expressing my true gender ID.

Young transgender children often instinctively know they are one gender or the other. That tells me that in many cases gender ID is not learned, but rather tied to the organization of a developing brain during gestation. All transgender people probably possess a mixture of male and female brain organization. That seems pretty obvious.

When I started on HRT, my personality changed in many surprising ways. Some ways for better and others for worse. I do believe that dormant parts of my brain were activated under the influence of E while other part were deactivated in the absence of T.

I believe these brain organization differences are what account for differences in transgender people. For example, I have friends who are on estrogen and have experienced no loss of male gender awareness. They enjoy being males and living as men. Taking estrogen has no effect on that. When I started on E, my desire to preserve some semblance of masculinity disappeared entirely. I believe that a substantial part of my brain was geared toward a female gender identity given the right hormonal environment.

I think some of the conflict here a BN has to do with the difference in the amount of female identity that resides in each of us. When the gap is very large, the perceptions, behaviors, and attitudes of the other side can give rise to conflict. We no longer understand one another which can intentionally or unintentionally cause offense and resentment.

I am experiencing this myself with regard to my many CD friends. In the two years that I've know many of them, there has been no significant change in their personalities, manner of dress, voices, you name it. They have found their place on the spectrum and are happy with who they are.

I, on the other hand, have been moving so fast toward a more authentic expression of who I am, it's hard to keep up. I'm starting to resent how my progression to becoming a woman is not being acknowledged by my CD friends. They mean no harm, but no man would talk to a woman the way they talk to me, a woman. It simply means that we are drifting apart, and I have to find a new group of friends who can relate to where I am in my transition. Life doesn't stand still when you're transitioning.

I see the same thing happening here at BN. There are members who I used to be quite friendly with on this board, whereas now we seem to live in different worlds. Bad? Not really. It's understandable that values and interests would change reflecting our diverging paths.

Frankly, I was getting bored with talk about growing breasts, anyway. It's not at the top of my priority list right now. I suppose it's a sign that I should leave this forum. But, breast growth is just one small aspect of the many issues surrounding gender identity which I find very relevant. So why should I go off to another forum, like Susan's, run with an iron fist; a group that won't even acknowledging the role that herbal methods play in breast growth.

There will always be a certain percentage of people here who start out as males wanting breasts who discover that they have a stronger female gender identity than they imagined. A path to understanding those forces and how to deal with them is valuable for them. I know it was for me.

Well, I'm really rambling on here, so I'll cut it off without any pithy conclusion or final thoughts. Cheers!

Maybe a ramble but one which largely gels with my opinion.

Unlike you, I didn't really have a body image issue until after I had sorted out my mental hormonal imbalance. Up until then, I had never really given it too much thought although looking back, I have always differentiated myself in terms of clothes sense - no jeans and sweatshirt for me!! Now, however, this has all changed and exactly as you say, the rate of change is unbelievable. At the outset, I was adamant GCS would not be for me, now, I am champing at the bit to get it out of the way mainly for psychological reasons although I long to be able to wear the kind of clothes currently not very flattering and the sooner I can ditch the megga spiro the better. I never thought I would even consider FFS - now I am checking my Email hourly to see if the Facial Team proposal has arrived. The destination is no longer in shadow, I have just got to become on the outside as close to the person I am on the inside as possible. If that means I never get to 'passing' (what a awful concept that is), so be it, I know who I am and if that is as far as I can get, then that would have to be enough.

I also get completely what you say about leaving some of the community behind. We went to this Transgender event in Manchester over the weekend and I actually felt seriously out of place. It almost seemed like a bit of a caricature of the Trans world. Most of the people there were from the CD or drag communities and the over the top dresses, make-up and hair dos just left me uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against these groups but they are just not for me. The big issue, for those of us who just wish to get on with life as part of the wider world, is that the wider world fails to make distinctions between these groups and us - we are all tarred with the same brush. That I something I do have a big problem with. They are not representative of me and I don't want to be grouped under the same umbrella. (For similar reasons I am not sure that linking T with LBG in LBGT does the Trans world any favours at all in the wider worldview). I guess this comes down to educating the wider population but that in itself brings problems!

I concur about the emphasis moving away from breasts specifically. My whole journey started as what I thought was a breast fetish (how wrong was I??). Now though, whilst I am still monitoring growth progress, it is more about how my overall body is developing and shaping up. This is now about general femininity - boobs are part of it but only part. I most certainly don't want anything huge and out of proportion although a bit more that a B would be nice

I have also thought about moving on from BN but have decided to stay for now; where else could I find such a diverse group co-existing in one place. I don't actually follow much of what goes on here now though, there is much that I now find to be irrelevant to me even though at one time it was completely germane to my search. My story thread, like so many of the story threads, has had quite a few hits for the time it has been there which presumably shows an interest (why do so few people comment though - I sometimes think I am just writing a personal diary!!).

I owe so much to BN I could so easily have missed all this and gone through life without ever discovering who I am. If anything I write helps even one other who is also on a journey of self discovery then it is well worth the effort.

Who is rambling now???

Miranda