[Huggy]

Hi Eva.

Just seen your post, thanks for your input and very encouraging. I assume you are talking about pharma meds for most of this effect?

Will admit I don't want to loose too much strength as I still have on occasion to move rather heavy motorcycles about, though that's as much about technique as it is strength really.

But even if strength loss goes right down to full GG levels, it's not as if women are incapacitated (far from it) it just means doing things differently sometimes. Would just be very nice to see some of the muscle bulk slim down a bit. :-)

[Huggy]

Hi Dianna.

I tell ya, this forum is like a kettle. You watch it..... nuthin. Look away for a moment and then steam!

Donuts? I weakened yesterday. First time in well over a year. You know what? Didn't actually enjoy it. It felt like I was eating hyper sweet chemical mush! And afterwards had a dose of the glums. Not so much from having something I shouldn't really have had, that was a choice I made. But a definite touch of depression from whatever it is they put in there. The trick now of course is to burn this into my mind so the next time I get tempted I remember the consequences and turn away.

GMO is a WHOLE other subject! (don't get me started! ;-) Once you peel away the propaganda, lies, half truths, scare mongering etc, it's a fascinating insight into the real power behind the systems we have to live under. And it's NOT for our benefit!!

Recovery from CFS is going slowly but well. thanks, But it does put a major brake on exercising. Push slightly too hard (which is my nature) and I hit the CFS wall and it can take days to recover. However, the only treatment that has been proven to work is to do very low impact AND consistent exercise, but a level just below the wall. By slowly building up the underlying fitness it helps the body heal from the effects of CFS too. In the context of what we are talking about here, it's specifically not about building muscle mass but tone. So a bit of a win-win.

To paraphrase what seems to be to be prevailing wisdom here, is to be patient and let the reduction of testosterone (especially DHT) and increase of oestrogen melt the muscle and try as much as possible not to use the upper body. And only then try and create lean muscle under control of the now oestrogen soaked body. The trick is to maintain underlying fitness.

One method I have found surprisingly effective is using a treadmill. Not to run on but walk. Running is a bad thing for joints etc, and it has been proven that walking at a pace is actually of higher cardiovascular benefit than running (surprised? I was). Thing is, because the treadmill dictates the pace and not you, you are forced to maintain the effort. Whereas in normal walking you automatically adjust your pace without realising it and don't get the same effect. It's a great opportunity to practice walking in heels too ;-)

Know the battle with weight all too well. When the CFS hit I was effectively immobile for about two years and put on loads of weight and was diagnosed with diabetes. But I came up with a simple plan and so far the diabetes has now gone and I have managed to loose over 30lbs and counting. It's not complicated and I am hardly ever hungry, but if you would like to know more let me know.

Would be VERY interested to hear how you get on with PM hair tonic!

[Dianna1395]

Well, haven't ordered PM liquid yet - been a busy weekend (I did all the chores, the woman had two scrapbooking-type classes to attend to... Why I need a woman again if I'm living the single life, except I can't go find some honey...?)

Anyway: Gripe/concern.
I'm taking 3X pills, 2X a day, each, of Reishi Mushroom, and Saw Palmetto with Pygeum. (Solaray Red Reishi Mushroom, 600 mg/caplet; & SP w/Pygeum @ 160 mg SP + 125 mg Pygeum; http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/solaray-r...es/so-1517 ; http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/saw-palme...es/vs-1861 )

As noted before, I'm seeing feminization of upper body, WRT muscle mass (more than I'd realized), but so far, no difference in head hair (which I'd hoped for). The body hair is getting WORSE, though.
I'd noticed in the past that Finasteride was not effective controlling DHT/stopping hair loss. But this... This has me worried.

I can't afford to lose my strength - because things that were just "ho hum" two weeks ago, are now difficult. E.G., taking my toolbox off the shelf I put it on. Now, I haven't been working out - but that's not been a problem in 20 years.

Anyone know how MUCH of a role DHT plays in strength maintenance? I can't afford a huge loss, if I can't become passable. (Long story, but I was mistaken when I thought "woman" looking back before. I gots no hips! And I USED TO have something resembling hips, at least a little! Again, about a week, maybe two! The boobs look "good", if not particularly how I'd hoped; but I need to keep strength, and I can't train with weights like I used to, so... WTF? And given my father almost died on the table - needed multiple transfusion - due to BPH? I'm going to be a bit pro-active avoiding DHT. But how do GGs get to build strength, when their DHT is so much lower? Must be total T, or something - even allowing for size differences. But I see the fat deposit in the upper arm/tricep region... Yesterday I notice it's got the "saggy" look of fat, instead of the curved/round shape of muscle! Given I'm already questioning WTF is happening following the "cute intern" results... And I've never had the "I wanna F*ck her!" reaction, really... Though I AM the dominant partner, I'm not always "on top" - in fact, rarely "on top" in that sense, more like a, "Ride me so I can watch you enjoy yourself" aspect... Anyway, TMI. )

So, maybe everyone here can chime in about my "mixed gender selections" and such.
1. Hate body hair
2. Admired girls
3. Want girls as "playmates" / no interest in males, period.
4. Want strength - it's essential to my self-identity. Don't need to be a strongman, but can't be weak.
5. Muscle damage, which the doctor said is "nothing" (not psychosomatic, but not actual injuries requiring intervention.)
6. Often mimiced girls' behaviors without meaning to, e.g., carrying books against my chest, instead of in one arm at the side.
7. Would transition if I could reasonably make it (Must. Be. Passable.)

so, due to job change, no insurance right now, but that'll kick in Aug 1st. then I need to set up to see specialists, anyway. But that "strength" thing is a BIG issue to me - I can't afford to be weak, my mental image of myself won't tolerate it, even due to injury. too many OTHER injuries along the way, courtesy of my fellow "Catholics."

I'm going to get back on the "workout" side of things, but... Having issues controlling the carbs (target is 20 g/day or less). Add in depression (still haven't told Missy it's time for her to go), and I don't want to get up in the morning...

I need to break the whole mess.
But if DHT is so bad, how can I control it effectively, and ensure the male attribute is OK, since letting the DHT go will also likely result in BPH?
And strength again...

And I'm not pretty, by any means... ;-) but the face isn't strictly "male", either. (not Feminine, mind, but not the picture of "male", either. Maybe shave the goatee and really look close... but FFS would just need to focus on the brow bossing, the rest is passable.)

Any ideas...?

[Huggy]

Hi Dianna

What can I say? Wimmin, gotta love 'em. Complex and wondrous creatures that they are and there is nothing quite like their lovely soft curves. In fact they are so good so we want a few for ourselves! But yeh, life gets a lot more complicated when they are around too :-)

Firstly I must emphasise that I am still very much on the learning curve myself with NBE and because of my CFS (Chronic Fatigue) I find the techo-jargon very hard to get my head around. That said, I have been taking copious notes and I will put my neck out and share a few details I have noticed that seem to be becoming accepted as solid info. However, we should keep in mind that these can actually be quite dangerous substances we are playing with here and not understanding the potential risks with what we are doing to ourselves and blithely popping pills is a foolish thing to do.

Perhaps one of the biggest details that rarely seems to get mentioned is that unlike pharma meds which are often single isolated chemicals, these are derived from living plants and this makes a HUGE difference. They are complex substances and will have multiple components which can often be very effective at countering the "good" ingredient we are trying to use. Saw Palmento seems to be a good example of this principle. Was first thought to be a top performer, but individual experience and scientific studies has shown that for some people it can even be counter productive for NBE. For me, I did seem to get an initial kick from it but that soon settled back down again and couldn't honestly say I was getting any effect in the end. But we are all different I suppose.

Can't comment on Pygeum but current thinking seems to be to use Reishi and WP together. To quote; "Reishi and WP are used for two different purposes, WP is for converting free testosterone to estradiol (estrogen) through an enzyme called aromatase. Reishi is used for controlling DHT through another enzyme called 5 alpha redutase, and DHT is the strongest androgen." Speaking personally, I have just moved over to this combo and in less than a week I have had clear indications it is working!

Suggest 2x pills 3x a day. Too much in one hit just gets wasted (and might even load up the liver too much) and spreading out over the day will have a greater effect as the body will be exposed for longer.

For body hair, I have been giving a Remington I-Light Pro a try. Bought mine (cheap) second hand off Ebay and just factored in the price of a new bulb. What can I say? It's not like one treatment and you are done, but for me it definitely seems to be working and apart from a few sensitive areas it's virtually painless.

Seems that re-growing head hair is not a sure thing. Some do report improvement but mostly when it's gone... its gone. However, I have had a few thoughts which I have been mulling over which may be worth further investigation. After all there is a pharma treatment that is proven to help. I wonder if there is a more natural way of getting a similar effect?

You are probably not going to want to hear this, but at it's most basic, big muscles means more strength. Small muscles won't have the same 'explosive' strength as big muscles. It's a trade off. But at worse that just means adjusting our approach and to use technique more that brute strength. But let's be honest, half the worlds population have been getting along very well not having the strength of an ox and they don't seem to mind too much?

I am not talking from experience here you understand, but some have commented that once the muscles have shrunk to more female proportions and the body has stabilised to female levels of hormones, it is possible to build up strength again but under the discipline of oestrogen the muscles stay at more female proportions. That said, a well thought out exercise regime focusing on lean muscle development should make it possible to retain quite a bit of strength, and going for the "fit girl" look would tick a few of my boxes! Also will be a great help in increasing growth hormone levels (definitely worth looking into) and general toning and getting rid of flab.

As for hips, I started a few weeks ago on Aguaje with a little Maca. I haven't measured yet, but my botty is definitely squidgier!

Agree with you that DHT is the enemy. There is a ton of info on sqelching DHT here. Controlling it is more complex and subtle than first appears, but it IS do-able.

A suggestion if I may? You clearly have a lot going on at the moment. Relationships, work, health, and loading on top of that NBE is I suspect only adding to the pressure? How about, giving yourself permission to take a time out? Take control again. Could be a couple of weeks or a couple of months, whatever you feel you need? But then use that time to get yourself into a relatively stable situation, in a practical sense, but also psychologically/emotionally? You can't make good decisions when you're under so much stress you can't think straight.

Also, use the break to concentrate on getting fit and well. You may want to check out some of the NBE food suggestions that are made here? A health diet that grows boobs? Can't knock that. And the fitter and healthier you are the more effective your final NBE plan will be. And just as importantly, use that time to re-educate yourself with the latest info that is coming through here so that when you decide you get back into the game you will be able to have a much clearer idea of what it is you actually want and have a much better idea of how to achieve it?

Anyway, waffled on for far too long so going to stop here. Hope some of this helps?

[Demon Lord Etna]

I'm not sure about losing muscle mass, but I did lose some weight.

I am about 60 lbs lighter than when I started, but I've also reduced my mile run time by almost 2 minutes. I incorporated regular workouts into my NBE plan to help with fat redistribution. So I'm lighter, but not weaker.

[Huggy]

Hi Etna (somehow, Demon Lord sounds too formal :-)

I had a quick look to see your own progress and all I can say is WOW!

I had mostly come to the conclusion a reduction in strength was a price I was going to have to pay for a softer shape, but with the hope that with a little care and effort it should be possible to maintain a reasonable degree of strength. Plus the fact that even with the most extreme programme (considering my age and health limitations) I doubt I would ever be able to override the 'maleness' of my body to any large degree, and that in itself would probably keep my strength from disappearing too much. That said, I am very intrigued to find out the state of play in a year or so. I have no idea what I will be able to achieve, but I am DETERMINED to achieve something!

However, your comments about not loosing much strength is interesting. There is no doubting the effectiveness of your own programme and one thing you certainly are not, is muscle bound! Still amazed, and perhaps there is hope for us all after all ;-)

[Demon Lord Etna]

I'm toned and fit. Not muscular.

[Huggy]

Toned and fit is DEFINITELY the way to go!

Your example leads the way, but looks like I have some work ahead of me. ;-)

[Dianna1395]

... Plus the fact that even with the most extreme programme (considering my age and health limitations) I doubt I would ever be able to override the 'maleness' of my body to any large degree, and that in itself would probably keep my strength from disappearing too much. That said, I am very intrigued to find out the state of play in a year or so. I have no idea what I will be able to achieve, but I am DETERMINED to achieve something!

There is a similar threaded on Susan's, and it seems the consensus is, you lose strength before (if) you lose mass.
Those male years don't do much, actually. I suspect that there is a difference in energy processing, men and women may utilize different energy processes. Like men drawing from sugars, women from fat, say?
Regardless of that, you'll lose strength fast if you're feminizing, unless you really work to keep it. Like many inability to pick up the toolbox I use? I'm not even taking phytoestrogens, just reishi mushroom and saw palmetto. ( Dropping the reishi to allow strength recovery...)

DHT is, at least for me, the primary hormone...

That sucks, but such is life.

[Huggy]

Hi Dianna

I agree, from my own research it does look as though strength reduces before the muscle mass. This seems especially the case with HRT. And yes, I did notice "if". That really would be a regrettable throw of the dice.

There is one rider though, it is easier to maintain strength than build it up in the first place. A well thought out programme focusing on muscle tone rather than size, and most especially FITNESS, can be very effective with maintaining strength. Which considering that we are starting at a much higher level than a GG should give us a substantial advantage. There are many examples of people on this and other forums who have reported good results by doing this. Keep lifting that tool box! Or take a couple of spanners out ;-)

I cannot give you the science behind it, but I also agree that men and women seem to metabolise exercise differently. And I don't think it is just the testosterone/oestrogen balance, I am sure there is more going on. Clearer, better educated minds than mine could probably explain what that is.

I also agree regarding DHT. I have very recently shifted my own focus towards DHT and I have already noticed a step change in effect. Still too early to quantify but it does seem to agree with others experiences that testosterone isn't the big baddy it used to be thought of. But isn't this part of what we are trying to learn here?

I can only speak personally, and perhaps I have become a little older in my attitude that I realised. I have spent my entire adult life living in a body which even by other men's standards is strong an I do genuinely appreciate the advantages that has given me. And I will admit that when I was younger I did play into that quite a bit. But I have also realised that the ability to heft large rocks is not what defines me. Strength comes in many forms and if/when I find I have to work a little harder to get things done, then so be it. I have come to accept that my days of cow hurling is probably over. Considering the level of strength I still have I would not be surprised if that does reduce quite noticeably (I have more to loose I guess), but even at the extreme end of that possible swing, I have to assume that I would still be at the strong end of the female range of strength? And funnily enough, they seem to cope ok?

Does that suck? I don't know? For some maybe. For me it is more of a choice. Or perhaps that's my male brain breaking things down into binary logic. The only problem with that is emotions are not logical. And this forum is a lot more about emotions than I suspect most of us really want to admit.