[Lenneth]

Ok, Long story short i was watching a documentary video about Intersex that coverd a lot of seldom (If ever) covered information, one thing though that a perticular doctor said though has been bothering me quite a bit and I just cant figure out what kind of mental gymnastics that doctor is doing to have suce a viewpoint.

So I would like to see what you guys & gals (& in-betweeners) think.

In an interview this Doctor on the issue of Leaving Intersexed Children as they are and alowing them to choose wich direction (if any) that they want to go when they are able to, his responce was "that it would be Unethical to leave them as they were born and extremely unethical to allow them to remain as they were born" he did not explain or even attempt to apply any logical reasoning to his position, he only attempted to justify it by showing the interviewer pictures on his office computer that were not shown on the video (claimed to be to graphic to show) and asking them "What would you tell Mommy & Daddy that that is?"

Personally I cant find anything asside from fear drivin bigotry & the like to explain this viewpoit.

Thoughts?

[CalmlyAndrogynous]

Believe it or not there is Japanese manga that covers this (and quite a long running series) and I think written by an intersex person. (IS: Otoko Demo Onna Demo Nai Sei)

The point of view of the protagonist (in the 3rd and longest story) in the manga is that they are who they are, something of both. Their parents shielded them from the Drs who tried to force an early decision.

The catch is though, that unless you want a short life span, you have to make a decision at some point. Assuming this was not just a plot device, having low T and E is not a good thing long term.

I personally think this Dr is way off, too absorbed in their own god complex maybe.

[flamesabers]

To play devil's advocate, I think this is a type of situation in which there are very few good outcomes and too many bad outcomes. Playing the role of god and doing surgery to assign a sex is certainly unethical, just as I think it would be unethical for parents to engage in genetic engineering to select particular physical traits. However, even if there are no medical ramifications of allowing intersex children to stay as they are, there is still the dilemma of how to raise such children in society. Unless intersex children are raised in isolation, sooner or later they will realize they are very different from virtually everyone else. I think such a realization would be overwhelming for most adults, let alone children. And this would probably happen at an age where children tease each other over insignificant things like wearing glasses, having freckles or being tall. Besides the plight of being an outcast amongst peers, I suspect most adults (even well-meaning adults) would have trouble grappling with the prospect of addressing and interacting with children that defy the sex dichotomy. Public bathrooms are segregated by sex. Most forms requesting you to specify your biological sex only has 2 options. Even the English language has no official pronouns to address intersex individuals.

At best intersex children grow up to be functional and happy adults who may choose to have surgery to have the genitals of only one sex. At worst intersex children may resort to suicide due to the unending extreme emotions of isolation and alienation from the rest of society. I imagine all decent and loving parents would never want to play god and make such a decision about what sex to alter their child to be. However, the same type of parents wouldn't want to risk putting their child through the hell of alienation and isolation of not fully belonging to either half of the species.

I am reminded of a story I saw on television a long time ago. A mother of three young children is pregnant and will soon give birth to a fourth child. However, she has a serious health condition that must be operated on before she gives birth or she will die. If she undergoes the operation, the unborn child will suffer severe brain damage. Her options therefore are:

a. Forego the operation, deliver a healthy child and die soon after.
b. Get the operation and give birth to a child with severe brain damage.
c. Get the operation and get an abortion.

I didn't see how the story ended, but it seemed she wanted to go with option A. My mother who was watching the show with me, commented 'what about her three young children? Protecting the life and health of her fourth child means condemning her other three children to a life without their mother.' Her husband and three children don't want her to die. She is willing to sacrifice herself if the only alternatives are to maim or kill her fourth child. While it may be possible to argue one option is more ethical than the others, any of the options would require a combination of the death, physical maiming or emotional scarring of one or more individuals.

[Lenneth]

Believe it or not there is Japanese manga that covers this (and quite a long running series) and I think written by an intersex person. (IS: Otoko Demo Onna Demo Nai Sei)

The point of view of the protagonist (in the 3rd and longest story) in the manga is that they are who they are, something of both. Their parents shielded them from the Drs who tried to force an early decision.

The catch is though, that unless you want a short life span, you have to make a decision at some point. Assuming this was not just a plot device, having low T and E is not a good thing long term.

I personally think this Dr is way off, too absorbed in their own god complex maybe.

I'll look up that Manga, haven't heard of that one before.

Quite possible it is the ego/complex thing, I was mostly trying to figure out just how he arrived at the conclusion that not doing unnecessary cosmetic surgery on a child is Unethical.

To play devil's advocate, I think this is a type of situation in which there are very few good outcomes and too many bad outcomes. Playing the role of god and doing surgery to assign a sex is certainly unethical, just as I think it would be unethical for parents to engage in genetic engineering to select particular physical traits. However, even if there are no medical ramifications of allowing intersex children to stay as they are, there is still the dilemma of how to raise such children in society. Unless intersex children are raised in isolation, sooner or later they will realize they are very different from virtually everyone else. I think such a realization would be overwhelming for most adults, let alone children. And this would probably happen at an age where children tease each other over insignificant things like wearing glasses, having freckles or being tall. Besides the plight of being an outcast amongst peers, I suspect most adults (even well-meaning adults) would have trouble grappling with the prospect of addressing and interacting with children that defy the sex dichotomy. Public bathrooms are segregated by sex. Most forms requesting you to specify your biological sex only has 2 options. Even the English language has no official pronouns to address intersex individuals.

while that makes a bit of sense from a certain point of view, a doctor specializing in the field should (at least you would think they would be) aware of a number of facts that have been proven multiple times.

one primary one being that they only get the forced surgical assignment right about 15% of the time.

At best intersex children grow up to be functional and happy adults who may choose to have surgery to have the genitals of only one sex. At worst intersex children may resort to suicide due to the unending extreme emotions of isolation and alienation from the rest of society. I imagine all decent and loving parents would never want to play god and make such a decision about what sex to alter their child to be. However, the same type of parents wouldn't want to risk putting their child through the hell of alienation and isolation of not fully belonging to either half of the species.

in a perfect world where 80-90+% of the surgical assignments are right & done right that works, but when it's 15% no, I don't agree with that.

I am reminded of a story I saw on television a long time ago. A mother of three young children is pregnant and will soon give birth to a fourth child. However, she has a serious health condition that must be operated on before she gives birth or she will die. If she undergoes the operation, the unborn child will suffer severe brain damage. Her options therefore are:

a. Forego the operation, deliver a healthy child and die soon after.
b. Get the operation and give birth to a child with severe brain damage.
c. Get the operation and get an abortion.

I didn't see how the story ended, but it seemed she wanted to go with option A. My mother who was watching the show with me, commented 'what about her three young children? Protecting the life and health of her fourth child means condemning her other three children to a life without their mother.' Her husband and three children don't want her to die. She is willing to sacrifice herself if the only alternatives are to maim or kill her fourth child. While it may be possible to argue one option is more ethical than the others, any of the options would require a combination of the death, physical maiming or emotional scarring of one or more individuals.

Considering the Surgery is not correcting something that is a threat to the child's health and is only correcting a cosmetic issue that is not visible to everyone else (unless they are in a nudist colony), that doesn't apply imho.

examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trmbnnQTgp4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr96b9v1YB8

just found this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8id0IzR0Io

[edit]Stumbled across this one just now, Very Well Done but a lot longer than the others[/edit]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bnWNbCJmUM

[WantAPair]

I don't understand the line, either! As far as I can tell, he's just repeating himself!! How can one be unethical and the other be extremely unethical when they're both the same thing??

[Lenneth]

I don't understand the line, either! As far as I can tell, he's just repeating himself!! How can one be unethical and the other be extremely unethical when they're both the same thing??

I think you misunderstood.

He said "Not Surgically Assigning a Binary Gender" is Unethical and "Allowing the child to remain as they are until they decide for themselves" (In Addition to not surgically altering them) is Extremely Unethical.
(Per his Opinion at least)

[flamesabers]

Lenneth,

I still have the question of how should parents raise intersex children? People very rarely see genitalia before identifying whether a person is male or female. Confusion arises when it's difficult to easily identify a person as being male or female. This isn't something just with physical sex, but numerous other categories such as age. It can be quite a surprise to learn someone is much younger or much older than they appear. Height is another category of this. Most children are short in stature while most adults are of taller stature. Dwarfism and gigantism throws a wrench in this trend.

Ultimately my point is we don't live in a gender-neutral society. Consider this, what are the most common questions parents are asked about their children? I would say name, age and sex. Do parents leave it to their children to decide whether they want to be called a boy or girl? Should parents even tell their children they are intersex?

[Lenneth]

Lenneth,

I still have the question of how should parents raise intersex children? People very rarely see genitalia before identifying whether a person is male or female. Confusion arises when it's difficult to easily identify a person as being male or female. This isn't something just with physical sex, but numerous other categories such as age. It can be quite a surprise to learn someone is much younger or much older than they appear. Height is another category of this. Most children are short in stature while most adults are of taller stature. Dwarfism and gigantism throws a wrench in this trend.

Ultimately my point is we don't live in a gender-neutral society. Consider this, what are the most common questions parents are asked about their children? I would say name, age and sex. Do parents leave it to their children to decide whether they want to be called a boy or girl? Should parents even tell their children they are intersex?

watch the videos, they answered those questions.

[MonikaT]

I don't understand the line, either! As far as I can tell, he's just repeating himself!! How can one be unethical and the other be extremely unethical when they're both the same thing??

I think you misunderstood.

He said "Not Surgically Assigning a Binary Gender" is Unethical and "Allowing the child to remain as they are until they decide for themselves" (In Addition to not surgically altering them) is Extremely Unethical.
(Per his Opinion at least)

In simplest terms, the doctor is saying, "You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't." However, I think he may have the level of gravity backwards. While I'm led to believe they can now do all kinds of genetic testing to better determine which direction to go, I think it is worse to assign a gender than it is to allow the child to grow up and choose or not choose. After all, we do live in a gender binary though society is beginning to accept that it is more of a spectrum than a binary.

Please understand I am not trying to be hurtful, but what happens in the school locker room? A child is born with ambiguous genitalia. The parents give their child a unisex name like Taylor. Little Taylor grows up wearing clothes that aren't distinctly female or male, though most "male" clothing is sort of unisex in that females wear jeans and T-shirts, too. When Taylor starts pre-school or kindergarten, everyone wants to know if Taylor is a boy or a girl. How does Taylor answer? About the time puberty kicks in, the school starts making kids get naked in front of each other in the locker room. Girls use one locker room, boys the other. Which one does Taylor use? Kids are incredibly cruel. Teenage girls are the worst. Taylor's life is going to be hell if there is always a special locker room, a special rest room, a special shower for Taylor.

From the perspective of always being a special case that doesn't fit in either category, Taylor could suffer great psychological harm, thus the statement it is unethical to let the child decide. Conversely, given that doctors only guess right 15% of the time, it is also unethical to choose for the child at birth, or at least before school age. There's no inherently right answer, but of the options, one is least worst. I would argue that with adequate counseling and lots of family support, the best choice is to let the child decide. It's not ideal, but it is better than surgically-induced GID. So, the doctor got it backward, in my opinion. Who knows? The child may decide to remain as is, and that is certainly acceptable, too.

[Lenneth]

In simplest terms, the doctor is saying, "You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't." However, I think he may have the level of gravity backwards. While I'm led to believe they can now do all kinds of genetic testing to better determine which direction to go, I think it is worse to assign a gender than it is to allow the child to grow up and choose or not choose. After all, we do live in a gender binary though society is beginning to accept that it is more of a spectrum than a binary.

Not quite.

ok, here is a similar statement to what he was saying that I think will be clearer to people here.

"Males who grow breasts that don't let me remove them right away is Unethical, and if they decide they want to keep them that is more unethical"

or if you want to boil it down farther & remove the unethical term he is using, he seems to be saying "What looks Different Must be forced to be the same as everything else."

Please understand I am not trying to be hurtful, but what happens in the school locker room? A child is born with ambiguous genitalia. The parents give their child a unisex name like Taylor. Little Taylor grows up wearing clothes that aren't distinctly female or male, though most "male" clothing is sort of unisex in that females wear jeans and T-shirts, too. When Taylor starts pre-school or kindergarten, everyone wants to know if Taylor is a boy or a girl. How does Taylor answer? About the time puberty kicks in, the school starts making kids get naked in front of each other in the locker room. Girls use one locker room, boys the other. Which one does Taylor use? Kids are incredibly cruel. Teenage girls are the worst. Taylor's life is going to be hell if there is always a special locker room, a special rest room, a special shower for Taylor.

From the perspective of always being a special case that doesn't fit in either category, Taylor could suffer great psychological harm, thus the statement it is unethical to let the child decide. Conversely, given that doctors only guess right 15% of the time, it is also unethical to choose for the child at birth, or at least before school age. There's no inherently right answer, but of the options, one is least worst. I would argue that with adequate counseling and lots of family support, the best choice is to let the child decide. It's not ideal, but it is better than surgically-induced GID. So, the doctor got it backward, in my opinion. Who knows? The child may decide to remain as is, and that is certainly acceptable, too.

No Offense/hurt taken, I realize the topic can be difficult to understand to others.

ok, on the school hell issue, their are several ways around that..

It also crosses over with other issues that have been solved with "Special Schools" and Homeschooling.

With Homeschooling the only drawback is not as much social interaction with other children (their is still plenty, but some view it as not enough), and no this is not the "paranoid parent" kind of homeschooling, it is the kind where the school work is assigned by a teacher and graded by a teacher, it can even be done Online.

With Special Schools, no they don't have to build new ones, their are always vacant schools and other buildings for rent that could be used for this, and while being primarily for Gender Variant Students, not being Exclusionary of others willing to attend, which can introduce a powerful tool to remove the fear and ignorance (& phobias) that causes the whole bullying issue.