[Bielz]

I'm no expert on tbe subject but I've done my fair share of research. I am a biological male taking PM to raise my estrogen and SP to decrease testosterone. In the past when I took it, any growth I had was glandular and I barely had any fat distribution to the chest area. I read that progesterone cream could help fill out the breasts in people who were estrogen-dominant, but I'm not. I bought progesterone cream to use alongside PM thinking I would have the benefits of both glandular growth and fat desposition...

However, I also read that progesterone in males can be converted into testosterone if not a lot is used. Are there any people here (Lotus, you come to mind) that can shed some light on this?

[Lotus]

Bielz,

Progesterone inhibits DHT via 5 alpha reductase in genetic males. Additionally, a 1/4 teaspoon daily can help improve sperm motility (this could be important for those who still want function) and ED (erectile dysfunction). Studies have shown that when E2 and progesterone taken together increases breast epithelial growth. It is possible some estrogen may be down-regulated by PC, but given the fact phytoestrogens or HrT are used it's mitigated.

Leptin upregulates breast tissue growth by way of aromatase, it just needs to be activated. Aromatase is a big deal, research has shown us that.

gynecomastia.
Dundar B1, Dundar N, Erci T, Bober E, Büyükgebiz A.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
It has been reported that there is a relationship between circulating leptin and sex steroid hormones and leptin is able to stimulate estrogen secretion by increasing aromatase activity in adipose stromal cells and breast tissue. Leptin receptors have been also shown in mammary epithelial cells and it has been suggested that leptin is involved in the control of the proliferation of both normal and malignant breast cells.
AIM:
To investigate circulating leptin levels in boys with pubertal gynecomastia.
METHODS:
Twenty boys with pubertal gynecomastia who were in early puberty and had no obesity, and 20 healthy individuals matched for age, pubertal stage and body mass index (BMI) with the study group, were enrolled in the study. Body weight, height and left midarm circumference (MAC) and left arm triceps skinfold thickness (TSF) were measured and BMI was calculated. A fasting blood sample was collected and routine hormonal parameters including prolactin, beta-human chorionic gonadotropin (betaHCG), total and free testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), prolactin, androstenedione (AS) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS) levels were studied. Serum leptin levels were analyzed using radioimmunoassay.
RESULTS:
The mean ages of the study and control group were not different (13.9 +/- 0.89 and 14.2 +/- 0.66, respectively). No significant difference was found for BMI, MAC and TSF values between the two groups. There was no significant difference for hormonal parameters including FSH, LH, total and free testosterone, estradiol, AS, DHEAS and estradiol/total testosterone ratio between boys with pubertal gynecomastia and the controls. Serum leptin levels were found significantly higher in the study group compared with the healthy controls (5.58 +/- 0.81 and 2.39 +/- 0.29 ng/ml, respectively; p <0.001). No correlation could be determined between serum leptin levels and hormonal parameters.
CONCLUSION:
The presence of higher leptin levels in boys with pubertal gynecomastia indicates that leptin may be involved in the pathogenesis of pubertal gynecomastia. The role of circulating leptin in pubertal gynecomastia is probably related to increase in estrogen and/or estrogen/ androgen ratio by the stimulating effect of leptin on aromatase enzyme activity in both adipose and breast tissues, or a direct growth stimulating effect of leptin on mammary epithelial cells, or increase in sensitivity of breast epithelial cells to estrogen with inducing functional activation of estrogen receptors by leptin in breast tissue.

Bielz, I think this study sheds some light, obesity (or weight gain) wasn't a factor in this study of pubertal gynecomastia, therefore, it was Leptin that was the potentiator of breast growth. In other words, giving hope to a situation like yours.

I cover more info on Leptin here: pages 295 & 296

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=17436&pid=165418&highlight=Leptin#pid165418

[Happyme]

great question, I'm about to embark on that same routine!
I've been massaging with wild yam with progesterone. If anything, my breasts are SUPER soft.

Bobbi

[Bielz]

Dr. Lotus, in the house

I understood maybe 30% of your reply (I've always found it kind of difficult to know what I'm reading of yours when I lack the knowledge and vocabulary). But to be simple then...I need something called Letin to put into my program? Or do you recommend continuing with what my first plan was, which was taking PM/SP and throwing in PC (and I'm not too sure on the PC dosage, maybe 1/2 tsp everyday for half the month?)

I'm really looking for fat deposition which PM has not given me as of yet.

[Lotus]

Dr. Lotus, in the house

I understood maybe 30% of your reply (I've always found it kind of difficult to know what I'm reading of yours when I lack the knowledge and vocabulary). But to be simple then...I need something called Letin to put into my program? Or do you recommend continuing with what my first plan was, which was taking PM/SP and throwing in PC (and I'm not too sure on the PC dosage, maybe 1/2 tsp everyday for half the month?)

I'm really looking for fat deposition which PM has not given me as of yet.

Ok, I understand. I'll put it this way, you've had the benefit of some glandular growth (with awesome puffies) .....You want fat distribution to the breasts, correct?. Ok then, getting fat to peripheral tissues (breasts) without causing obesity is the desired outcome? (I'm guessing).

This (breast growth) is using a (or tuning) a multiple of hormones/proteins/fats/exercise/fasting. Simply put, I think we need to be in constant state of Flux (otherwise known as FAT FLUX) state where we add and burn fat while modulating hormones and proteins. In other words Breast growth comes from a stimulation of hormones (other things I noted, nerd stuff) and an increase of fat cells, (longer, elongated and rounded in that makes sense). This is simialr state of ketosis, but a modified state of ketosis (imo) it's something talked about but not fully understood, I've been thinking (trying to figure it out) about this for sometime.

We want healthy breast growth without the complications of weight, DVT, stress on our livers, cancer, etc. Liberatiing fat cells in peripheral tissues seems a likely prospect. Help is welcomed to add to this conversation.

FAT FLUX: enzymes, regulators, and pathophysiology of intracellular lipolysis
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.15252/emmm.201404846/asset/emmm201404846.pdf?v=1&t=iif6phme&s=4bb1f679be867a087e2bc66597ee5eb8d003becc

Progesterone 1/4 teaspoon daily, (applied to breasts [not nipples, which causes freckles on the areolas]).
Green tea 2-3 cups extract to promote Leptin (or green coffee bean extract)
Coconut oil (1-2 tablespoons) to help synthesis of new fat cells
Fat in, Fat out----that fat flux I described (e.g. activation of Lipogenesis of fat cells, then followed by NBE/ Hrt and then exercise, HITT preferably).

So sorry Bielz, I'm honestly not trying to confuse, I think it's the direction new breast growth needs to take. Btw, Leptin is the satiety hormone (tells we are full) and ghrelin is the hunger hormones (tells us to eat), if too much ghrelin is produced Leptin is inactivated, which means estrogen is not being activated to synthesize aromatase, in other words a missed opportunity of free growth.

[Bielz]

Okay I think I understand now.

Can flaxseed oil replace the coconut oil? I've read about some success stories using flaxseed oil and rubbing it in the breasts with good results.

[Lotus]

Okay I think I understand now.

Can flaxseed oil replace the coconut oil? I've read about some success stories using flaxseed oil and rubbing it in the breasts with good results.

Honestly?, coconut oil out performs flaxseed oil, and my reasoning is in the science, (as posted throughout BN). However, the choice is yours.

One other explanation of my previous post, say you had liposuction done on your midsection, and then took the fat cells and ran them through a car wash of purification to remove toxins from the last 30 years (similar technology is used in stem cells) and reinjected them in the breasts, wouldn't you think this is future technology?........I do, but can we replicate this in our own BN lab?, lol I'm hoping that we can.

[Bielz]

Okay I think I understand now.

Can flaxseed oil replace the coconut oil? I've read about some success stories using flaxseed oil and rubbing it in the breasts with good results.

Honestly?, coconut oil out performs flaxseed oil, and my reasoning is in the science, (as posted throughout BN). However, the choice is yours.

One other explanation of my previous post, say you had liposuction done on your midsection, and then took the fat cells and ran them through a car wash of purification to remove toxins from the last 30 years (similar technology is used in stem cells) and reinjected them in the breasts, wouldn't you think this is future technology?........I do, but can we replicate this in our own BN lab?, lol I'm hoping that we can.  

Lotus, would you recommend coconut oil that is expeller-pressed or cold-pressed, refined or unrefined, and virgin or extra virgin?

[Pansy-Mae]

FWIW, I'll chuck a laymans anecdotal evidence in here.

I've always believed that since, in GG's, Progesterone acts to increase branching etc to prepare for milk production, there is no point in taking Prog until PM/estrogens have done their stuff and caused some actual underlying breast tissue growth for it to work on. A few years back, when my PM development had stopped, I tried 'nature identical' Prog cream a couple of times but saw no noticeable change. I then tried 'Microgest' and that did have almost immediately small but noticeable increase in volume in both the cleavage and top area's.

15 months ago I stopped taking everything and in a year or so I had lost a cup size, general all round shrinkage and particularly developed the 'hollow top' effect of older breasts. About 3 weeks ago I found a part pot of Prog cream left from my earlier trials several years ago, so I thought I may as well use it up and started using it twice a day. Within only a few days I noticed a change, I am absolutely sure my boobs have firmed up significantly in the last couple of weeks and there is more volume at the 'top inner' area. It seems to me that this feels like the fat redistribution from my earliest days on PM, but I can't be sure of course.

As I say, just my experiences, FWIW.