I had high hopes a couple of months ago to post a general program thread along with some progress pictures, and for the first month, that seemed to be a promising reality. Unfortunately, thing seemed to not only be slowing down, but in fact, reversing. I'm perplexed, to say the least. This was my program starting 12/2/2015:

-PM 2k/day
-SP 1.5k/day
-2 tbsp coconut oil ingested (halted on 10th for nausea)
-breast message 15 mn 2xday (halted somewhere around 20th due to chronic shoulder pain caused by a cyst)
-Green Tea, approx. 2-3 cups/day (halted around 25th)

By the end of December, I had really nice, hard, swelling in my pre-existing breast buds (a carry over from a time I self medded on pharma), extremely tender/swelled/slightly erogenous nipples, dark areolas, a cessation of morning erections, and some really great "pink fog" that made me feel really giddy and happy. At the end of December, I wanted to get a bit more aggressive with my plan, so I switched to this on 1/6/2016:

-PM 2kmg/day
-2x dropper / day Reishi Mushroom Ethanol based extract
(organic Herb Pharm brand)(sublingual)(approx. 1360 mg)
-2x White Peony (Full Spectrum Swanson brand)(1200 mg) / day

I tried PC cream for one night, and it made me feel terrible. I'm not sure if that was a psychosomatic effect or not, but not long after I took it, I felt like I got forcibly jerked straight out of my pink fog, which was really upsetting. I spent twenty days on that plan, and really, it was a bit of a nightmare. I was constantly moody. Feeling terrible. Just depressed and angry all the time. The pink fog, which I had so thoroughly enjoyed the first month was all but gone. In its place was just a constant state of irritation. The tenderness in my nipples slowly disappeared. My buds shrank back down from marble/golf ballish size to flat discs. Even erections seemed to come a little easier. I was dismayed, and confused, to say the least. Here I was thinking that by adding stronger AA's, I'd have more success. I came to the conclusion that perhaps my AA sources where just too cheap, and decided to purchase a 4 oz. bottle of white peony extract from HawaiiPharm. Having done some extra research here, I also decided to try upping my PM dose to see if I could get any of the effects that I had the first month. My new program as of 1/26/2016:

-PM 3k mg/day
-White Peony Extract (under tongue) 2 droppers/3x day (HawaiiPharm brand)

Although I'm more confident that this brand of peony is of quality, I haven't noticed switching to it making an immediate difference (as I did notice with the SP combo). So, does anyone have any thoughts as to why suddenly things aren't working? What confused me most about all of this is how much weaker SP is supposed to be, and yet, I got the most success with it. For the record, in case anyone is wondering, I didn't feel a reduction or reversal of growth when cutting out coconut oil or green tea. It was a constant state of improvement right up until I switched from my first program to the reishi/peony mix.

Ouch, that does not sound good at all.

I'm not sure what your plan was before but I found my system did seem to ( for want of a better description ) fight back, when I started PM & WP. Keep at it for another few weeks, it should settle down.

I would add some green tea supplement into the mix too, 600 to 800mg a day really helps step things up.

I'm not too sure that the progesterone cream should have affected you as much as it did much after only one day, but.

" Progesterone cream, for some it may help keep firmess and fullness. for others it may cause a bit of shrinkage."

Although, I use a herbal progesterone cream during my 5 days a month off cycle and I don't feel like I loose any.

Thanks for the encouragement Jannet. It was actually one of your posts that got me to get the HawaiiPharm WP, so thank you for that. Is there a green tea supplement that you recommend? As for the PC cream, it was probably all in my head, but as for now, I'd still rather wait to use it until more e builds up in my system.

Take a trip to your local health food store, look for something with at least 80% polyphenols. The Naka brand i am using has 95%.

Hi Dana

Oh dear, not a good turn of events. Please don't get discouraged, finding a plan that works for you will be expected to have a few bumps along the road.

Putting my engineer's hat on for a moment, when trying to fault find something it's best to go back to when things last worked properly, work out what changed and what needs to be done to get things working again. The positive thing is you were getting results :-)

From my own experience I agree with Jannet. I was drinking Green Tea like it was going out of fashion and any effect was marginal if any (for me). however, when I switched over to Green Tee Extract I definitely noticed things kick up a gear, and high percentage polyphenols is the thing to be looking for.

I would also agree regarding the PC and it may well be the reason for flattening the pink fog and raising the agro settings. It goes into the system pretty fast, and depending how much you used it is quite a powerful hormone. It will tend to reduce oestrogen and although I can reduce DHT it can also increase T. Works best when you have an established system up and running and there is plenty of oestrogen floating round for it to work with.

I am sure I remember reading somewhere that WP is best as a tincture, as passing through the gut and liver really knocks back it's effectiveness.

Got caught out myself with CO. Because we tend here to focus more on its NBE benefits we may overlook it's other applications. It is used extensively for health benefits and has an anti-bacterial/fungal effect. Typical me, I barrelled in and started with higher doses and got a VERY upset tummy! (wasn't pretty) Too much too soon. Basically I was getting a toxic reaction from too much die-off. But for NBE, health and weight loss reasons I thought it too good to ignore and I stuck with it. Starting with a teaspoon once a day I was soon able to take larger doses without a reaction.

Just a thought? Do you ever notice a white coating at the back of your tongue? If you do it may be Candida? Coconut Oil is the generally accepted go-to remedy, and two tablespoons a day is a really big dose to hit your system with if you do have Candida and could explain your bad reaction?

Think you should be ok with your replacing the SP with Reishi. For those who have tried both, most seem to agree that Reishi is better, myself included.

3k of PM seems high. Though have to put my hand up and admit I did bump up to about that myself for a while. However, at those doses it has been reported as being counter productive and has anti-androgenic properties (reduces testosterone), which if you are going to try for aromatise becomes somewhat self defeating?

Speaking personally, at the moment I am on low dose FG in the morning and low dose PM in the evening and progress is very noticeable. Less is more?

Hope you can get the cist sorted, don't want that hanging around.

Hang in the Dana, you will get there :-)

Huggy.

Thanks Huggy. I've spent the last couple of days looking at green tea extracts online (poly count was too low at the health food store) and have narrowed it down to a few. Do you know the % or mg count of EGCG in yours? I've decided to fit in cycling somewhere in my routine. I'll try the PC cream then and hope for the best. As for the coconut, I seem to have a serious reaction. I even had it with food the other day and had the same trouble. Might just not work for me right now. I have no idea if I have candida, maybe a slight coating, who knows. I'm not taking reishi anymore, just the WP extract. As for the 3K, I may reduce it once things kick back into gear. I've noticed when looking through many programs around here that lots of people used 3k, but that could be outdated wisdom. Thanks again for the encouragement.

Hi Dana

The GTE I have just started with says 95% on the packet, though there is always an element of doubt with these things of course. But even though I started low I have noticed an effect already. Scotti found a link for supply in the US.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Green-Tea-Extract-4500mg-x-360-Tablets-Anti-Oxident-Immune-Support-/181212231766?hash=item2a31173856:g:9ZIAAOSwUdlWd~ma

Yeh, if you are getting that much of a reaction to the CO, it doesn't really matter what the root cause may be, common sense would be to stay off it for now. If you do decide to have another go later with it, definitely would suggest very low doses and acclimatise first.

The more I find out about PM, the more subtle and complex a substance it seems to be. Lotus has been digging up some new info recently about its effect on the liver and brain. Interesting stuff. And there does seem to be a psychological aspect to it. Not actually addictive but it's hard not to like the feeling it can give. And that can lead to the temptation of if some is good more is better. Which as you know in life often is not the reality of things.

There does seem to be a growing consensus that when used as a part of a thought out programme about 500mg x2or3 is about right, and anything over 15000mg a day is a waste and can actually begin to get counter productive.

That does assume on the quality of the PM which isn't always as sure as we would like. And I do realise that some far more skilful with their NBE than me may be playing with quite different doses too. But guessing even then it will only be for a limited time for a specific purpose?

Huggy

Okay, I'm really starting to get frustrated. I realize that this is a slow process, but it seems that I'm hitting all sorts of roadblocks. Tinctures caused my growth to stop. Alcohol consumption caused it to stop. Using THC cream on my abdomen for chronic pain caused I t to stop, and now, much to my disbelief, even taking gummy calcium/vitamin D pills has caused it to stop. I feel like I'm at my wits end. I don't care if I have to wait a long time, but it'd at least be nice if my nipples didn't desensitize and my breast buds didn't turn to mush every two weeks from some new complication. Does anyone have a clue what could be wrong? Im sorry to dredge this topic up again, but it's getting so frustrating to start over, finally get sensitize nipples/buds/fog only to have it all taken away. It's driving me nuts.

Hi and thanks for starting this thread, it has proven informative. Don't know if this will help but I just read on another thread that WP will do nothing for someone with no ovaries (said by Abi Drew I believe). Not sure though. They suggested the gte with ecgc's as well.

I had to take a three week break from PM because I ordered it too late and let me tell you it wasn't fun. Twas as if I could feel the testosterone beast rearing its ugly head, with a removal of the pink cloud and the irritation rising every day...ugh. Made me realize that being a male sucks lol.


Anyhow, I hope that this helps and if not well, know that I am sending you positive vibes. Regards,

JennaFae

Edit: Here's another quote (from Lotus): "green tea @ (6-8 cups per day) is pro-NBE, no other tea comes close imo. I think WP needs to be @ 5 grams (min) to see benefits of aromatase. Licorice root improves WP in the small intestines, mostly from the saponins in LR (they act synergistically with each other)."