[kit019]

Hello all!

This is my first post here after having been lurking for some time already, and having decided to finally get an account and join the community. I have always found this place to be an extremely valuable resource for finding info on NBE, particularly on how to start, what dosages to begin with, etc.

Before going any further, however, I will go over a bit of myself. I'm a 22yo male, in college. I believe I may have been been trans from a very early age, having discovered it until recently, after connecting many many dots scattered all across my life. I have always been tormented by the rampant toxic masculinity that we have poisoning our society, and particularly with my endomorph body build, which, at least for me, as weird as it may sound, feels like my body/genes betraying me. Despite this, I do not plan to pursue transition or anything that comprehensive; however, when I came across this site, and found out about the wealth of information there was on growing breasts as a male, I immediately wanted to try it, as it could potentially allow me to feel better with myself, while also having control over the process.

I started a program after some research last year, and maintained it for 4 months. Around two months in, I had already formed hard knots under my nipples, and by the third month, they were fairly puffy. By the fourth month, though, I began having very tiny amounts of fluid come out of both nipples. At this point, I decided to pause my program indefinitely, as I did not know if all those things were supposed to set in that quickly. At its peak, this program was as follows:

6x500mg PM
6x540mg Red Clover
10x160mg Saw Palmetto
*spread across morning and night

By the beginning of the last month in that run, I came across several posts in this forum stating that Saw Palmetto may have been a goto anti-androgen in the past, but that by now, it was now known that it might do more harm than good, so I decided to entirely remove SP, and replace it with 2x600mg of White Peony. I did not really get to see what kind of differences there would be in effects, as I discontinued the program in less than a month after that. Most of the changes slowly completely reverted over the next two months or so.

Now, since December, I decided to start once more, using the revised program that I had when I paused before, which is as follows:

6x500mg PM
6x540mg Red Clover
2x600mg White Peony
*spread across morning and night

I'm close to my third month on this run, and not much has happened, when, on the old run, by now I already had knots under my nipples. I know this is my first post, and I am yet to get to know y'all, but, besides my introduction post, I would also like to take this chance to ask a question, just in case someone that has more experience might be able to respond. Has SP truly been found to do more harm than good, and is no longer recommended as an anti-androgen? And, if so, was White Peony the right choice, and is the dosage good?


Thanks!

[julieTG]

Hi kit
General cosnscenous is that white peony better

Your dosage of pm is pretty high for someone so young as at that dose you may get more than you bargain for

Julie

[Marcy]

Welcome kit. You're smart to join and become a poster. There is so much community here and you've been at it a long time by yourself. There is lots of good SP info on the site. While it may not be the go to AA anymore, there are still lots of folks using it. The quality of the brand matters a lot IMO. Also, what works for you can easily be different than what works for someone else.

I'm curious about what motivated you to start up again? Btw, I agree with Julie, that is a lot of PM.

[Lotus]

Welcome kit, nice intro.

Scientific evidence revealed SP to inhibit DHT in the prostate @ 32%. As an example, Pharma strength (dustasteride is at 94%, Finasteride about 89%). Reishi is about 88%. A new anti-androgen identified is astaxanthin, which demonstrated an inhibition of DHT @ 99%.

PM (authentic), green tea, white peony, progesterone cream, lemons (sliced w/6-8 cups of filtered water daily) & 1-2 oranges daily if possible (both inhibit DHT), astaxanthin are an equivalent to an hrt plan.


It would be a close comparison to taking E2 (2 mg), finasteride (5 mg), in my opinion FWIW.

[Marcy]

Lotus - you rock! Kit, I know you said you've been lurking so I imagine you'll appreciate the hundreds, no probably thousands, of hours of research that Lotus' post to you represents in boiled down form. We are a lucky group of souls!

Ps - Lotus, what is "authentic vs non-authentic PM?

[Lotus]

Lotus - you rock! Kit, I know you said you've been lurking so I imagine you'll appreciate the hundreds, no probably thousands, of hours of research that Lotus' post to you represents in boiled down form. We are a lucky group of souls!

Ps - Lotus, what is "authentic vs non-authentic PM?

Lol, thanks Marcy-(you a kind soul) digging that,

Yeah well, call (or paint) me crazy but that program works, and I'll tell you why. My blood tests in October revealed 50 ng/dL of total Testoerone and 550 pg/mL estradiol, that was from being on 8 mg E2 (estradiol valerate) and .5 mg of dustasteride previously.

Then, I went on Pharma (Teva) estradiol (E2) @ 2mg per day and 50 mg spirolactone. Crazy but true, my Estradiol increased 36% to 842 oh/mL.....that's 77% higher then the recommened amount (ref. range of 190pg/mL).

Testosterone fell 46% to 29 ng/dL (from 55 ng/dL)......and a 1.12 % free T and 26% bioavailable testosterone (3.7 ng/dL... refernce range-110-575 ng/dL). In other words, I destroyed my (T).

What did I do differently?, I was drinking green tea/ & coffee...4-5 cups and added 2-3 naval oranges, sliced lemon wedges in filtered water, 4-5 cups daily. Yeah lol, expect more potty breaks. So this means that I took less Pharma E2 (6 mg to be correct) and even less Pharma anti-androgen (spiro).

The end result is, that with the addition of green tea, (which I forget to say, green tea acts more like Spiro) oranges and lemon (which block the bio-synthesis of androgens in the ezyme CYP17).......I gotta say, that find of green tea & certain fruits inhibiting DHT for use in NBE, was a Grammy or Oscar find worthy, lmao.

These results where quite by accident truth be told, I was just trying to be healthier, when I got my results back I did two things, called my doc to reassure her I've stuck to the plan ( which I don't want to jeopardize) and reseached these ingredients, sure enough....they upregulated E and down regulate T. Go figure.

Ok authentic PM being origanal artifact (original study) clinically proven to contain original miro-& deoxymiroestrol. Which my calculations, its (dexymiroestrol) at .5 mg of E2, which is a dose more likely to be @ 1000mg of PM (because of deoxymiroestrol being 10x stronger of Miroestrol). I could be wrong on the calculations, but all the research amounts are based on Miroestrol, and deoxymiroestrol is not calculated.


Phew.....my head is spinning.

Sorry kit, I don't want to ruin your thread.

[Lotus]

Kit,

Red clover with PM makes perfect sense. Red clover loves stimulating estrogen receptor alpha (ERa, the boob growth receptor). PM targets more estrogen receptor beta (ERb , the anti proliferative receptor, helps prevent breast cancer, which loves ER-a).

White peony inhibits (type I) 5 alpha reductase, upregulates aromatase (testosterone converted to estrogen) a 2-3 fold effect (30 percent increase), sufficient. I like it for its anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties, which WP reduces the inflammatory response of IL-6 (interleukin 6) a direct mediator of inflammation, many other benefits (blood purifier) too.

The other things mentioned could fit well for you. Good luck

[kit019]

Thanks all for your kind responses! I am so glad I decided to join. It really feels great to be able to talk about all this; where I am there's really not many options for who to turn to for advice on this topic.

Welcome kit. You're smart to join and become a poster. There is so much community here and you've been at it a long time by yourself. There is lots of good SP info on the site. While it may not be the go to AA anymore, there are still lots of folks using it. The quality of the brand matters a lot IMO. Also, what works for you can easily be different than what works for someone else.

I'm curious about what motivated you to start up again? Btw, I agree with Julie, that is a lot of PM.

As I mentioned, I stopped because I got scared of something being wrong with the rapid onset of so many changes. I am well aware of that breasts are not meant to be grown overnight, but, rather, at a slow, steady pace. After stopping, however, I didn't stop reading and researching; I wanted to continue, but only after being sure that I could do so safely. Around November, I came across some threads where they mentioned having small amounts of fluid come out of their nipples as an effect after being some months into their programs, so at least now I knew that someone else had encountered the same thing. After that, and after some more reading as well, I decided to start once again; from scratch, of course, as nearly everything I had progressed had reverted during my hiatus.

Welcome kit, nice intro.

Scientific evidence revealed SP to inhibit DHT in the prostate @ 32%. As an example, Pharma strength (dustasteride is at 94%, Finasteride about 89%). Reishi is about 88%. A new anti-androgen identified is astaxanthin, which demonstrated an inhibition of DHT @ 99%.

PM (authentic), green tea, white peony, progesterone cream, lemons (sliced w/6-8 cups of filtered water daily) & 1-2 oranges daily if possible (both inhibit DHT), astaxanthin are an equivalent to an hrt plan.


It would be a close comparison to taking E2 (2 mg), finasteride (5 mg), in my opinion FWIW.

Ohh, I did not really know about astaxanthin being such a strong DHT blocker. I have seen it several times on the shelves at the pharmacy section when I go get groceries, so I assumed it wouldn't help me much in what I needed for my program; in the past I have tried Fenugreek, which is also on the pharmacy shelves, and all I accomplished was to smell like I had had hotcakes and I had spilled the honey all over myself, everyday, and even weeks after I had stopped it!

Kit,

Red clover with PM makes perfect sense. Red clover loves stimulating estrogen receptor alpha (ERa, the boob growth receptor). PM targets more estrogen receptor beta (ERb , the anti proliferative receptor, helps prevent breast cancer, which loves ER-a).

White peony inhibits (type I) 5 alpha reductase, upregulates aromatase (testosterone converted to estrogen) a 2-3 fold effect (30 percent increase), sufficient. I like it for its anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties, which WP reduces the inflammatory response of IL-6 (interleukin 6) a direct mediator of inflammation, many other benefits (blood purifier) too.

The other things mentioned could fit well for you. Good luck

Actually I had seen posts on those positive effects from PM and RC somewhere, hence I decided to add them to my program.

Also, Julie's and Marcy's posts have kind of confirmed the thoughts I had been having on my PM intake being too high, so I have decided to lower it to 4x500mg. I am also worried about the possibility of my WP intake being too low, as, since it was a replacement for the SP in my program, it is the only thing I am taking to keep DHT at bay.

Going back to astaxanthin, though! Now knowing that it is such a powerful AA, would it be a good idea to try adding it to my program/replacing WP with it? I see that its main effects are that of an anti-oxidant, but that it has its strong DHT-blocking properties as a side-effect. I am really interested in blocking as much DHT as possible, as I know that it only spells disaster on anyone's body, and destroys all efforts for anyone pursuing NBE.

Once again, thank you all for your warm welcome!

[polymorphis]

Welcome Kit!

it is good that more people switch from lurkers to posters. In that way more questions will be asked and everyone will find more answers!

See, just because of your introduction, we learned (or we were reminded):

- Taking PM with red clover is not a bad idea after all, because they act on different estrogen receptor and thus they are not competing against each another.

- Powerful 5-alpha reductase inhibitory activity of astaxanthine

Cool... Now let's put that information to good use!

[kit019]

Hey everyone!

I apologize for having disappeared for a while. My last posts were during the last few days of peace I had in my semester. After that, things got extreme, as is usually the case, and I didn't get much time to do anything besides school.

That put aside, however, I have some updates regarding my program and progress! Firstly, following the advice from everyone in previous posts, my program has been as follows for the last three months:

4x500mg PM
6x540mg Red Clover
4x600mg White Peony
2x4mg Astaxanthin
*spread across morning and night

I am unsure of whether it helped to change my program or not, as I began to observe progress shortly after, but soreness and growth haven't stopped, so I imagine it did help. On this note, however, I have had good progress since my last posts, which were at 2 months still. At around 3 months in, I began to feel a very small knot behind my left nipple, and around two weeks later, my right nipple followed. About a month later, 4 months in, the knots were close to the size of my areolae, and had begun to feel really sore. Coming straight to the current day, though, 6 months in; these knots, now breast buds that exceed the diameter of my aerolae, have grown considerably. They remain sore, and have caused both my nipples to become really puffy. My areolae have also spread a bit, having gone from 1in in diameter in the beginning, to currently 1-1/4in.

I think my nipples having gotten puffy and my areolae growing are among the changes I have liked the best. With this, I would like to ask for some advice, as well, just in the event anyone might happen to know. Reading the forum some time ago I came across some posts ago that pointed to Progresterone Cream greatly contributing to growth, but more specifically to the nipples and areolae themselves growing and puffying out. Upon further reading, however, I came across posts mentioning that Progresterone wasn't really needed until the later stages of development, and was only really needed if, for instance, there was estrogen dominance causing growth to stall. I am reluctant to even consider Progresterone Cream, as, at least personally, but I might be wrong, bringing in Progresterone is bringing in the truly big guns, and I don't know how safe it'd be to do so. With this last thing, should anyone happen to know, would it be a good idea to use Progresterone Cream at this stage to aid in my growth? And, if so, how safe would it be to do so?


Thanks, everyone, for all your replies and advice so far!