[Lotus]

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As you can see the pathway for Testosterone, Approximately 7% of testosterone is reduced to 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by the cytochrome P450 enzyme 5α-reductase, an enzyme highly expressed in male sex organs and hair follicles. Approximately 0.3% of testosterone is converted into estradiol by aromatase (CYP19A1) an enzyme expressed in the brain, liver, and adipose tissues. Note-the percentages are slightly off, (multiple sources).

By inhibiting the enzyme 5-alpha reductase and promoting the enzyme aromatase along with your choice phytoestrogens or pharma E is key for breast growth in bio-males.

Herbs that convert aromatase-White Peony, Liorice root, Genistein (PM), BO.

Herbs that help block 5 ar, Licorice root, WP, Reishi, SP, pygeum, nettle root (NR is tricky though), BO (not an herb), chinese skullcap, linolenic acid, green tea, progesterone cream is a strong 5 ar, pumpkin seed oil, linolenic acid.

(Pharma-Dutasteride and Finasteride). Both finasteride and dutasteride undergo extensive hepatic metabolism primarily via the cytochrome P450 3A4 (CYP 3A4) isoenzyme system.

Bruno deLignieres, an impeccable French researcher and Thiery Hertoghe, MD, fourth generation in the most distinguished family of endocrinologists in Belgium, have put forth the notion that rising estrogen levels are more likely to be the initiator of the process and that testosterone and DHT may then be a secondary player (promoter). In fact, phytotherapy (large doses of phytoestrogens - soy) is commonly used in European medical practices to treat BPH.

(Jonathan Wright and Eugene Shippen have written excellent, and popular books, discussing these more far-sighted notions all too commonly overlooked and even rejected in current conventional American Medical thinking.)

Testosterone is reduced by the enzyme 5-a-reductase to DHT which is then thought to be the real culprit. The argument between the use of Saw Palmetto, Pygeum and Pumpkin seeds vs Proscar are both directed at blocking this enzyme. Strangely, DHT is most important for sexual vigor, so blocking this step may have some unintended consequences!

On the other hand, Testosterone is also converted into estradiol by aromatase (producing the aromatic ring). This occurs increasingly with age in the liver but most importantly ... in the fat stores.

http://www.antiaging.com/andropause/andropause2.html

Its been stated here before that the Androgen to Estrogen pathway is easier than the Testosterone to Estrogen pathway, and once again aromatase continues to demonstrate the factual evidence.

A couple of French researchers recently reported this:

Testosterone is reduced by the enzyme 5-a-reductase to DHT which is then thought to be the real culprit. The argument between the use of Saw Palmetto, Pygeum and Pumpkin seeds vs Proscar are both directed at blocking this enzyme. Strangely, DHT is most important for sexual vigor, so blocking this step may have some unintended consequences!

On the other hand, Testosterone is also converted into estradiol by aromatase (producing the aromatic ring). This occurs increasingly with age in the liver but most importantly ... in the fat stores.
Now you see the connection. As we age, and frequently gain increasing fat stores, we are feeding the aromatase connection, increasing our estradiol levels and if this theory holds, increasing the promotion of prostate disease.

Also that rising estrogen levels are more likely to be the initiator of the process and that testosterone and DHT may then be a secondary player (promoter). In fact, phytotherapy (large doses of phytoestrogens - soy) is commonly used in European medical practices to treat BPH.

Another example of the androgen/estrogen pathway:



http://www.antiaging.com/andropause/andropause2.html

[Lotus]

Here's a great example of the DHT process, my question has always been the preferential binding process, e.g.what influences steroids choice of pathway to aromatase or DHT. According to the above chart it states 7% to DHT and .03% to aromatase without any influence from meds. Id like to see more information (numbers) on the conversion process, and what percentage are certain meds influence, e.g. when meds are introduced how "much" (in concentrations) are shifted?. Imo, that's the $64,000 dollar question, solve that and it opens the door to breast growth, and other conditions too. In men, prostrate cancer is ER mediated.

[Lotus]

General averages of rates/ratios when consuming herbs

Q-How long does a capsule take to dissolve?

A-Typically the average is up to 20 minutes, some sources have at 5-10 minutes while others say 20-30 minutes. Extracts 1 to 4 minutes

Q-What are typical absorption results?

A-For skin application- 60%

A-Liquid- 98%

A-capsule- 10-20%

Q-What is the capsule to extract ratio?

A-20 to 1, meaning it would take 20 capsules to = 1 teaspoon of extract



Q-When is the best time to take an herb?

A-In general herbs are best taken on an empty stomach

When to supplement (timing)
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Hormones are released every 90 minutes, the binding of receptors takes 30-45 minutes upon activation. The process of supplementing should match that cycle (e.g. supplement every 4 hrs to correspond with the cycle rather than taking all at once, or in large dose).

When to supplement (timing)
-------------------------------------------------------------

Hormones are released every 90 minutes, the binding of receptors takes 30-45 minutes upon activation. The process of supplementing Should match that cycle (e.g. supplement every 4 hrs to correspond with the cycle rather than taking all at once, or in large dose).

For further information about timing and receptors see the following.

Receptor Regulation (how the timing of hormones work)
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=20747&page=5

[Huggy]

Lotus, you have excelled yourself! Just one word.... Wow! In fact it's so wow it deserves another WOW!

Going to need an extra strong cuppa and THREE dunking biscuits for this read! :-)

Seriously, thank you. What you have put together here is amazing.

[xxd]

Lotus wrote:
"A Theory of mine is that an increase in Total T will see a correlating rise in FREE T which through Aromatase gets converted to Estrogen). This is where bio-males grows boobs, (you know, in the absence of ovaries)."

I happen to have a box of 30x testosterone gel sachets and a container of 90 reishi extract capsules. I'm waiting on some white peony arriving.

I think I will perform an experiment on myself to test your theory because I also came to the conclusion that this should work. I have wondered why, however, with the exception of one time where I don't know what the exact combination of herbs was, I only get fat redistribution and added (greedy!) fat storage instead of breast growth. I think it's DHT which is the same conclusion you have come to.

I am going to take some extra testosterone and block the DHT with the reishi and take white peony to see if I can aromatize the free testosterone. I will post the results (hopefully itchy nipples).

[xxd]

Oh yeah something else...

NADH potently increases cAMP which should also increase mammogenesis.

I may get some of that to experiment in my new stack too.

[BlueCoral]

Quick question. On the first page it says to "cycle" all the different types of herbs and nutrients. But what does that mean exactly? Cycle them all in a day? Week? Only take some of them and then take others? So you'd take PM for however long, and then take another herb in it's place for another period, before switching back or to another herb? Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I didn't see this mentioned anywhere in OP. Also another stupid question. In the different categories like for Pro-Aromatase for example, are we to try all the different ones listed at once, or find ONE that works the best?

[Lotus]

Receptors get desensitized for various reasons (environmental toxins, drug/supplement saturation, free radicals, inflammation, cancer, etc) which stall's growth. The reason to cycle is to reset the receptors, which by cycling helps to provide betters results (synthesis) of hormones, proteins, fatty acid synthesis (FAS) etc. Progesterone (PC) resets estrogen receptors (ER), it's up to you when to cycle, personally I think 3 weeks on and 1 weeks off (all supplements) provides a decent break imo.

How much or how many pro-aromatase to take?.....find one that works and take the recommend amount. Now some herbs do both (pro-aromatase and inhibit DHT), long chained fatty acids is one such example. Use no more than two, or one if the supplement is verified and standardized.

Cycling is important when taking supplements, failure to do so will result with tolerance, and the supplements will stop working.

Once your body makes the adjustments to get back to homeostasis is the time to cycle, (ie. in a 7 day plan, try 5 days on and 2 days off).


Tolerance occurs when the person no longer responds to the drug in the way that person initially responded. Stated another way, it takes a higher dose of the drug to achieve the same level of response achieved initially.

[BlueCoral]

Receptors get desensitized for various reasons (environmental toxins, drug/supplement saturation, free radicals, inflammation, cancer, etc) which stall's growth. The reason to cycle is to reset the receptors, which by cycling helps to provide betters results (synthesis) of hormones, proteins, fatty acid synthesis (FAS) etc. Progesterone (PC) resets estrogen receptors (ER), it's up to you when to cycle, personally I think 3 weeks on and 1 weeks off (all supplements) provides a decent break imo.

How much or how many pro-aromatase to take?.....find one that works and take the recommend amount. Now some herbs do both (pro-aromatase and inhibit DHT), long chained fatty acids is one such example. Use no more than two, or one if the supplement is verified and standardized.

Cycling is important when taking supplements, failure to do so will result with tolerance, and the supplements will stop working.

Once your body makes the adjustments to get back to homeostasis is the time to cycle, (ie. in a 7 day plan, try 5 days on and 2 days off).


Tolerance occurs when the person no longer responds to the drug in the way that person initially responded. Stated another way, it takes a higher dose of the drug to achieve the same level of response achieved initially.

Thanks for the info; but what I mean is when you say "cycle" do you mean cycle between herbs or cycle on/off periods.

[peekaboobs]

I think it's like pretty much anything that you do in that you build up a tolerance if you are continuous without a break.

Lotus- on the capsules being only 20% absorption rate, what do you recommend to do with capsules if anything to get a better transfer and at what estimated rate?

Thanks