[NebulousM]

Hi all,

I'm just starting out and after doing some research and looking at what I could get hold of in the UK, I got hold of some Oxford Vitality PM and White Peony from LifeExtension. I'm really confused about the dosage though.

So the PM packaging states: "White Kwao Krua 2500mg Herbal Extract" on the front and on the back "Serving size: 1 Tablet. White Kwao Krua (Pueraria Mirifica) from 250mg of a 10:1 extract.... Standardised Amount 2500mg" which confuses me as to whether this is a 2500mg or 250mg dose per tablet.

Everything I've read on here suggests I shouldn't crash in at 2500mg PM straight away (I'm correct that's bad, right?) and I assumed that's what I had, so I was thinking of cutting these things down. But if this is actually a 250mg dose that's practically nothing if I split it, and I worry that then the peony (600mg) will then be damaging because there's not enough estrogen coming from the PM to make it safe. 

The other way of looking at it is, OK, say I assume they're 250mg in reality, and I want to start off on say 500mg and build my way up to 2500mg. That'd be between 2 and 10 pills a day, which if it turns out they're really 2500mg is a heroic and dangerous dose to be taking!

So which do I actually have here? Looking at previous posts on this brand Rebecca Donaldson's post on this thread http://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=27240&pid=192922&highlight=oxford#pid192922 certainly talks as if the 2500mg pills are actually 250mg (a quarter of a gram) Also there's this thread http://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=27220&pid=191875&highlight=oxford+vitality#pid191875 which again seems to be talking about the same pills and refers to taking 2 three times a day. In other places, I've seen people count them as if they are really 2500mg of PM.

So anyway, if I could get some advice that'd be really helpful. Getting hold of any of this stuff has been really difficult and I was all excited about starting, but now I'm terrified of doing myself a mischief

[Shirazmn]

Hey

I recently got a pack of these and asked myself the same question... a bit too late. I was in a 1500 mg/day mood about 10 days ago so I took 6 tablets through the day, thinking 6x250=1500 . Then I noticed the 10:1 and started looking around on google. Apparently 10:1 means that for each gram of their tablets they used 10 grams of plant, making the pills 10 times stronger.
I ended up mailing them about the quantity of PM in each tablet and this is their reply:

----
Dear client,
Thank you for your message. Our White Kwao Krua is made of 250mg of a 10:1 herbal extract making a standardised amount of 2,500mg in each tablet. Other ingredients include Microcystalline Cellulose, Magnesium Stearate and Di-Calcium Phosphate.
----

So, it looks like I almost overdosed myself with the equivalent of something like 6x2500 = 15.000 mg. Like taking 30 Ainterol caps. I had a bit of fever in the next few days but that was probably viral. I still had a few days of extremely low energy levels.

On one hand I believe that 10:1 is not actually accurate and/or the effect is not 10 times stronger. On the other hand I am not going to try again and, since even 2500mg is too much for me, I am using these tablets as powder to mix with body cream and spread it on the smaller side of my chest.

I have no idea of how strong they actually are, but I would advice against taking more than the suggested dose of 1 tab per day.

Shiraz

[Louise]

Hi all,

I'm just starting out and after doing some research and looking at what I could get hold of in the UK, I got hold of some Oxford Vitality PM and White Peony from LifeExtension. I'm really confused about the dosage though.

So the PM packaging states: "White Kwao Krua 2500mg Herbal Extract" on the front and on the back "Serving size: 1 Tablet. White Kwao Krua (Pueraria Mirifica) from 250mg of a 10:1 extract.... Standardised Amount 2500mg" which confuses me as to whether this is a 2500mg or 250mg dose per tablet.

Everything I've read on here suggests I shouldn't crash in at 2500mg PM straight away (I'm correct that's bad, right?) and I assumed that's what I had, so I was thinking of cutting these things down. But if this is actually a 250mg dose that's practically nothing if I split it, and I worry that then the peony (600mg) will then be damaging because there's not enough estrogen coming from the PM to make it safe. 

The other way of looking at it is, OK, say I assume they're 250mg in reality, and I want to start off on say 500mg and build my way up to 2500mg. That'd be between 2 and 10 pills a day, which if it turns out they're really 2500mg is a heroic and dangerous dose to be taking!

So which do I actually have here? Looking at previous posts on this brand Rebecca Donaldson's post on this thread http://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=27240&pid=192922&highlight=oxford#pid192922 certainly talks as if the 2500mg pills are actually 250mg (a quarter of a gram) Also there's this thread http://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=27220&pid=191875&highlight=oxford+vitality#pid191875 which again seems to be talking about the same pills and refers to taking 2 three times a day. In other places, I've seen people count them as if they are really 2500mg of PM.

So anyway, if I could get some advice that'd be really helpful. Getting hold of any of this stuff has been really difficult and I was all excited about starting, but now I'm terrified of doing myself a mischief

Wow, I often think that if one person has a problem understanding something maybe it isn't explained that clear (this comment excludes flat pack furniture), but two with the same issue signals a common inability to understand poor information, when it gets to three it really should be looked at by the information provider.

I started on this product 3 weeks ago and had/have the same concerns (quite spooky reading your post! and still not convinced will explain later). So I think there is a terminology issue here which may be for marketing purposes but if it is then for something like this that’s irresponsible. It boils down to whether they are quoting "Extraction or Standardisation".

I was not taken in with the 2500mg figure but for your exact reasons read up on how herbals are generally produced and this link seems really good: "https://examine.com/nutrition/what-is-actually-in-my-herbal-supplement/"

The maths of a "10:1" concept isn't something any of us struggle with but there are so many nuances to this, and an ambiguous lable.

On this forum the products commonly mentioned have completed all processing before packaging (unless I guess it’s a raw powder type product which the customer is going to put in capsules).

So the common PM tablet of 500mg is a "Standardised" amount I am guessing after processing.

Extraction, to me, seems to indicate the presence of other unwanted products in the unprocessed material necessitating extraction of the product wanted. So to apply this to our dilemma here are my scenarios

Starting with 2500mg of the unprocessed PM flower and assuming THEIR term "extraction" is correct did they extract 250mg of pure PM and the other 2250mg is all wasted by-product? In which case it is not a concentrate just processed product of 250mg of PM. (happens to give a 10:1 ratio) or ....

Starting with 2500mg of pure product and concentrated it somehow at 10:1 (to allow for a smaller tablet) so each tablet = 2500mg of original material (why quote the 10:1 and especially the 250mg values) just sell it with 2500mg on the packaging!

If companies choose to "quote" the original "Crude" product volume before the extraction process and then sell the "Concentrate". This assumes all the original Crude product was pure product all be it still in its natural weaker state. In which case this is a concentrate and not an Extract.

Other questions - can you concentrate a plant powder anyway and why is the labling so confusing, or is it me

Serving Size 1 Tablet                                 Standardised Amount %EU RDA*
White Kwao Krua
(puerarie Mirifica)
(from 250mg of a 10:1 extract ................................................... 2,500mg


*EU Recommended Daily Allowances assuming 2000 calorie diet

I am assuming that one tablet daily for a 2000 calorie intake means the tablets are fairly strong and I am having one in the morning and one at night. The bit earlier about me still not being convinced is because after three weeks I am seeing some great results and I am not taking anything else yet. These tablets seem to work and for safety’s sake I am taking two a day. If that turns out to be 5000mg well I seem to tolerate it ok, if its 2 x 250mg then 500mg of this stuff is really formidable!

Wouldn't recommend assuming they are 250mg and taking 6, but selling a tablet at 2500mg seems to be out of standard norms. Did see a separate PM product from Thailand advertised at 3000mg but in the small print they actually said equivalent to standardised 300mg after extraction. One more small observation is I love the packaging as it fits the letterbox and it’s quite plain but all the correspondence have "Breast Growth" in them in Bold, not great when your customers like to be discrete and unnecessary, this makes me wonder if the team behind this product are properly thinking things through.

Still working my way through AA not sure if, White peony, Saw Pallento, Vitex (chaste Berry), or something else in order. Will order something this week.

Site is excellent, would say the personnel programs thread is best as sometimes seeing a list of all the products doesn't help so much, though glad the info is there. A bit like being lost in the car, asking directions, and someone listing all the roads in the area  but I'll get there, and wow some clued up posters

Lou

[Shirazmn]

Hi Louise

a couple of small considerations/questions (to no one in particular).

1) If I actually took the equivalent of 2500 x 6 = 15.000 mg in one day I should have had some serious kidney problem. I did it only for one day but the couple of days before I took 2 of those (per day) plus 1000 mg of "pueraria uk" brand powder plus 450 mg red clover.
2) I am curious to see what part of PM survives the extraction process. To be honest there is a massive debate about what (and IF) in PM is causing breast growth. Producers say that "minoestriol" (unknown to science) is the reason why PM causes breast growth. I wonder if this specific substance, or whatever it is, survives extraction.

Again, I wouldn't dare taking 6 tablets of 10:1 x 250mg per day again, but I feel like this particular brand is not as effective as taking 1:1 2500 mg powder. Some people in this forum dared going up to 3000 mg/day powder, that is what in Thailand is given to transexuals apparently, and the effects where extreme and sudden. Nothing that I've read about Oxford Vitality stuff.

This is not (yet?) an exact science. Be extremely careful!

[Jessica4581000]

Hi all,

I'm just starting out and after doing some research and looking at what I could get hold of in the UK, I got hold of some Oxford Vitality PM and White Peony from LifeExtension. I'm really confused about the dosage though.

So the PM packaging states: "White Kwao Krua 2500mg Herbal Extract" on the front and on the back "Serving size: 1 Tablet. White Kwao Krua (Pueraria Mirifica) from 250mg of a 10:1 extract.... Standardised Amount 2500mg" which confuses me as to whether this is a 2500mg or 250mg dose per tablet.

Everything I've read on here suggests I shouldn't crash in at 2500mg PM straight away (I'm correct that's bad, right?) and I assumed that's what I had, so I was thinking of cutting these things down. But if this is actually a 250mg dose that's practically nothing if I split it, and I worry that then the peony (600mg) will then be damaging because there's not enough estrogen coming from the PM to make it safe. 

The other way of looking at it is, OK, say I assume they're 250mg in reality, and I want to start off on say 500mg and build my way up to 2500mg. That'd be between 2 and 10 pills a day, which if it turns out they're really 2500mg is a heroic and dangerous dose to be taking!

So which do I actually have here? Looking at previous posts on this brand Rebecca Donaldson's post on this thread http://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=27240&pid=192922&highlight=oxford#pid192922 certainly talks as if the 2500mg pills are actually 250mg (a quarter of a gram) Also there's this thread http://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=27220&pid=191875&highlight=oxford+vitality#pid191875 which again seems to be talking about the same pills and refers to taking 2 three times a day. In other places, I've seen people count them as if they are really 2500mg of PM.

So anyway, if I could get some advice that'd be really helpful. Getting hold of any of this stuff has been really difficult and I was all excited about starting, but now I'm terrified of doing myself a mischief

Wow, I often think that if one person has a problem understanding something maybe it isn't explained that clear (this comment excludes flat pack furniture), but two with the same issue signals a common inability to understand poor information, when it gets to three it really should be looked at by the information provider.

I started on this product 3 weeks ago and had/have the same concerns (quite spooky reading your post! and still not convinced will explain later). So I think there is a terminology issue here which may be for marketing purposes but if it is then for something like this that’s irresponsible. It boils down to whether they are quoting "Extraction or Standardisation".

I was not taken in with the 2500mg figure but for your exact reasons read up on how herbals are generally produced and this link seems really good: "https://examine.com/nutrition/what-is-actually-in-my-herbal-supplement/"

The maths of a "10:1" concept isn't something any of us struggle with but there are so many nuances to this, and an ambiguous lable.

On this forum the products commonly mentioned have completed all processing before packaging (unless I guess it’s a raw powder type product which the customer is going to put in capsules).

So the common PM tablet of 500mg is a "Standardised" amount I am guessing after processing.

Extraction, to me, seems to indicate the presence of other unwanted products in the unprocessed material necessitating extraction of the product wanted. So to apply this to our dilemma here are my scenarios

Starting with 2500mg of the unprocessed PM flower and assuming THEIR term "extraction" is correct did they extract 250mg of pure PM and the other 2250mg is all wasted by-product? In which case it is not a concentrate just processed product of 250mg of PM. (happens to give a 10:1 ratio) or ....

Starting with 2500mg of pure product and concentrated it somehow at 10:1 (to allow for a smaller tablet) so each tablet = 2500mg of original material (why quote the 10:1 and especially the 250mg values) just sell it with 2500mg on the packaging!

If companies choose to "quote" the original "Crude" product volume before the extraction process and then sell the "Concentrate". This assumes all the original Crude product was pure product all be it still in its natural weaker state. In which case this is a concentrate and not an Extract.

Other questions - can you concentrate a plant powder anyway and why is the labling so confusing, or is it me

Serving Size 1 Tablet                                 Standardised Amount %EU RDA*
White Kwao Krua
(puerarie Mirifica)
(from 250mg of a 10:1 extract ................................................... 2,500mg


*EU Recommended Daily Allowances assuming 2000 calorie diet

I am assuming that one tablet daily for a 2000 calorie intake means the tablets are fairly strong and I am having one in the morning and one at night. The bit earlier about me still not being convinced is because after three weeks I am seeing some great results and I am not taking anything else yet. These tablets seem to work and for safety’s sake I am taking two a day. If that turns out to be 5000mg well I seem to tolerate it ok, if its 2 x 250mg then 500mg of this stuff is really formidable!

Wouldn't recommend assuming they are 250mg and taking 6, but selling a tablet at 2500mg seems to be out of standard norms. Did see a separate PM product from Thailand advertised at 3000mg but in the small print they actually said equivalent to standardised 300mg after extraction. One more small observation is I love the packaging as it fits the letterbox and it’s quite plain but all the correspondence have "Breast Growth" in them in Bold, not great when your customers like to be discrete and unnecessary, this makes me wonder if the team behind this product are properly thinking things through.

Still working my way through AA not sure if, White peony, Saw Pallento, Vitex (chaste Berry), or something else in order. Will order something this week.

Site is excellent, would say the personnel programs thread is best as sometimes seeing a list of all the products doesn't help so much, though glad the info is there. A bit like being lost in the car, asking directions, and someone listing all the roads in the area   but I'll get there, and wow some clued up posters

Lou

I know this is off subject, but I had to laugh, about your comment regarding flat pack furniture. I have a whole bedroom set stacked up which is my project for tomorrow  to build it all!

[NebulousM]

Thanks for the replies all, glad it's not just me that was confused by these things (in a way - it'd be better if everything were unambiguous for everyone, of course). It's hard to say after week 1 what exactly I feel they're doing. I *think* they're doing something, but I'm wary that the joy of doing *anything* finally is just making me hyper-aware. I tell you what though, they smell so bad (sort of like the ghost of long dead dry roasted peanuts) they better be doing something Hoo-whee.

I'm going to soldier on with the one tablet daily, I think, as I'm hoping to go on to HRT within a few months, these are really a stopgap for me until then so I don't think I ought to cane them too hard. In the mean time I'm measuring every possible body measurement stat I can think of.

[NebulousM]

Replying to my own thread here to say, I'm reasonably sure these things are the full 2500mg, based on the results I'm seeing. Which means I've dived straight in at 2500mg rather than going up slowly, but hey ho, it's done now. Anyone reading this thread and thinking "they're 250mg so I'll take multiple", I wanted to update to say "I doubt it".

My regimen: 2500mg PM, 600mg LifeExtension White Peony, and recently added 600mg fenugreek. Full disclosure, I'm also on 5mg of Finasteride as well, so if it's possible that has added to my growth, then I'll add that to the list. That said, it did nothing to my breasts for 6 months, so I'm pretty much of the mind it's not relevant. Oh yes and Vitamin D for a pre-existing deficiency.

What I did: splitting the PM (they cut easily) between morning and evening, taking with a glass of milk for 3 weeks on, one week off

What I saw: after a couple of weeks I noticed nipple tenderness increasing, and a dull ache in my balls from time to time. By the end of the first month I noticed my whole breast area seemed warm to the touch and I felt a little more padded there. It wasn't really obvious looking in the mirror until I stood under the bathroom light and my breasts had taken on the outline of a definite circle. Mood seemed much improved for me. The week off nothing much happened but naked I could feel my biceps rubbing up against my breast area more than usual. Its like that whole area has gone from not really sensitive at all to "waking up". Nipples erect pretty much constantly!

Started the second month and wow. Waxed my chest at this point, and yeah, it's clear there's growth there. Nothing much in the way of protrusion at the areolas, though there's something forming behind there, dull aches and slight itchiness which I'm relieving with massage. Definite round breast starting to form.

So yeah there it is. Can vouch for these herbs effectiveness if you're in the UK and can't get hold of Ainterol, with the caveat that I'm not a doctor and obviously like everything else you buy over the internet who knows what's really in them

[Louise]

Replying to my own thread here to say, I'm reasonably sure these things are the full 2500mg, based on the results I'm seeing. Which means I've dived straight in at 2500mg rather than going up slowly, but hey ho, it's done now. Anyone reading this thread and thinking "they're 250mg so I'll take multiple", I wanted to update to say "I doubt it".

My regimen: 2500mg PM, 600mg LifeExtension White Peony, and recently added 600mg fenugreek. Full disclosure, I'm also on 5mg of Finasteride as well, so if it's possible that has added to my growth, then I'll add that to the list. That said, it did nothing to my breasts for 6 months, so I'm pretty much of the mind it's not relevant. Oh yes and Vitamin D for a pre-existing deficiency.

What I did: splitting the PM (they cut easily) between morning and evening, taking with a glass of milk for 3 weeks on, one week off

What I saw: after a couple of weeks I noticed nipple tenderness increasing, and a dull ache in my balls from time to time. By the end of the first month I noticed my whole breast area seemed warm to the touch and I felt a little more padded there. It wasn't really obvious looking in the mirror until I stood under the bathroom light and my breasts had taken on the outline of a definite circle. Mood seemed much improved for me. The week off nothing much happened but naked I could feel my biceps rubbing up against my breast area more than usual. Its like that whole area has gone from not really sensitive at all to "waking up". Nipples erect pretty much constantly!

Started the second month and wow. Waxed my chest at this point, and yeah, it's clear there's growth there. Nothing much in the way of protrusion at the areolas, though there's something forming behind there, dull aches and slight itchiness which I'm relieving with massage. Definite round breast starting to form.

So yeah there it is. Can vouch for these herbs effectiveness if you're in the UK and can't get hold of Ainterol, with the caveat that I'm not a doctor and obviously like everything else you buy over the internet who knows what's really in them

Truly a carbon copy of my experiance though with a small exception to your regime. Your description of the effects is mirrored entirely by my own progress in terms of development sensitivety etc.

I however, partly because of the lack of clarity re. dosage had been taking two a day. I had not and still havn't introduced anything else but now am taking a break due to aches and pains around the liver area and will restart with half a tablet each morning and night once feeling better and introduce the white peony.

As an aside I had read some papers discussing regimes of individuals transitioning under doctor supervision and had seen that there is debate and some current thinking regarding higher dosage of estradiol (6-8mg if I remember correctly) for pre orchiectomy patients and 2-4mg post. The idea being that estradiol in the higher dosage is enough to suppress the testosterone and let the female hormone take prominance.

I think that is what taking two of these tablets a day has done to some extent as drive is virtually gone, there is some aching below, all quite watery and now got hairy legs requiring lots of maintenance. Its almost as if I dont need the antiandrogen with this dosage though would now warn to only take one of these foul tasting tablets a day (in two halves) and use a seperate AA.

If PM is meant to convert T to E then these tablets do that as the effects of low T is very evident and the effects of E obvious.

As an aside I noticed Swanson have stopped doing White Peony or at least its discontinued at healthmonthly and others, where should I look for or the LifeExtension White Peony mentioned,

Thanks

[Jenny13]

Is anybody still using this and seeing any genuine results? I have been using ainterol on an of for a fair few years taking 2500-3000mg a day and had good results. If I took a break for a month or two and then restarted all my lost volume would return and sore nipples would come back and my erections would disappear. When I saw the price of this and read the above posts I thought give it a go. 3 months down the line taking 1 tablet a day no signs in fact I feel worse of than my longest spell off ainterol which was 6 months.
I have a sneaky feeling that the true dosage per tablet is 250mg any help and advise would be appreciated

[Shirazmn]

Hi Jenny
After a month taking 1 OV 250 (2500) per day I can definitely tell that they are working for me more than 1500mg powder had ever done.
So, yes, from my point of view they are the equivalent of 2500mg as stated by the producer.
My progress are in one of my threads. Consider that all I'm taking is one of these per day and nothing else.

I found that keeping the tablet under my tongue until it slowly goes down in bits with my saliva is helping. It tastes horrible and it takes about 1/2 hour to go down.