[The First Aria]

Hiii Do you think it would be fine to add white peony to a prescribed Estradiol and Spironolactone regimen??? 

Thank you!

Téa

My first question is, are you under a doctor's care?  If you are, you should ask him...  My knee jerk reaction is NO.  Your body needs a certain amount of T if your E level is not high enough.

Hiii Yes I am as of yesterday. I just got my first months worth of Estradiol and spironolactone. I haven't taken my first dose yet. Ima wait till tomorrow cuz I don't want to risk it keeping me up late. Are you familiar with those two meds? I'm trying to decide if Morning or Night would be better to take them.

Been on HRT for 15 months now...   Those two plus progesterone.  While under doctors care.  So, ya, I am familiar.

That's awesome!!! So when during the day do you take yours??? I'm taking my T blocker in the morning and the estra at night.

I'm on Estradiol Patches...  My GD thinks that's the best way for me to go...  It's continuously putting E into my system.  I take 50mg Spiro in the morning along with my 10mg Progesterone.  At noon, I take my last 50 mg Spiro.  My GD says that it's true most of the T is secreted within the first 6 hrs of waking up, but there is a minor spike of T about 4 hrs later.  Also, splitting up the total dosage of Spiro is easier on the system.

[TeaTea]

My first question is, are you under a doctor's care?  If you are, you should ask him...  My knee jerk reaction is NO.  Your body needs a certain amount of T if your E level is not high enough.

Hiii Yes I am as of yesterday. I just got my first months worth of Estradiol and spironolactone. I haven't taken my first dose yet. Ima wait till tomorrow cuz I don't want to risk it keeping me up late. Are you familiar with those two meds? I'm trying to decide if Morning or Night would be better to take them.

Been on HRT for 15 months now...   Those two plus progesterone.  While under doctors care.  So, ya, I am familiar.

That's awesome!!! So when during the day do you take yours??? I'm taking my T blocker in the morning and the estra at night.

I'm on Estradiol Patches...  My GD thinks that's the best way for me to go...  It's continuously putting E into my system.  I take 50mg Spiro in the morning along with my 10mg Progesterone.  At noon, I take my last 50 mg Spiro.  My GD says that it's true most of the T is secreted within the first 6 hrs of waking up, but there is a minor spike of T about 4 hrs later.  Also, splitting up the total dosage of Spiro is easier on the system.

Oh Wow! Good stuff! I took my first Estradiol tonight. I get myself easily worked up over things. So I was almost shaky when I took it lol After I let it desolve under my tongue though, I was almost instantly relaxed! I'm so happy to be taking these steps.

[The First Aria]

I get it Tea Tea.....  I feel more "even Keeled" since my E is starting to rise myself....   Hope your program goes very well for you.

[TeaTea]

An androgen antagonist (anti-androgen) can broadly be defined as any compound that has the biological effect of blocking or suppressing the action of male sex hormones such as testosterone within the human body. DHT blocks the conversion of aromatase (bad for breast growth).
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Reishi-reishi mushrooms significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony--Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

Spearmint-anti-androgenic properties reduce the level of free testosterone in the blood, while leaving total testosterone and DHEAS unaffected.


Green Tea Epigallocatechin-Green tea (camellia)-Reduce's the conversion of free testosterone into DHT and also raises SHBG (sex-hormone-binding-globulin).


Pygeum-include phytosterols that inhibit the production of dht. Pygeum also reduce's prolacting levels and block the accumulation of cholesterol in the prostate. Prolactin increase's the uptake of testosterone by the prostate. Pygeum reduces the levels of DHT in the blood and reduces the number of sites where the dht can attach.


Saw palmetto-Saw palmetto-Beta-sitosterol is a natural alpha-adrenergic receptor blocker. Prevents DHT from accumulating in prostate tissue that would otherwise cause excessive cell growth and inflammation. The plant steroids in saw palmetto also act on progesterone receptors, an action that causes a reduction in estrogen levels.


DIM is Diindolylmethane-It is an anti carcinogen and also improves estrogen metabolism. Plant-derived 3,3′-Diindolylmethane Is a Strong Androgen Antagonist in Human Prostate Cancer Cells* DIM is remarkably similar in conformational geometry and surface charge distribution to an established synthetic AR antagonist, Taken with estrogen agonist, activities of DIM are seen as an hormone disrupter. DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants.


Nettle Root--Binds to SHBG (hormone that binds to excess hormones by decreasing hormone levels), and decreases 5ar and aromatase. Taking this tends to increase estrogen and testosterone. Would need to be taken with a pro-aromatase, and maybe estrogen.


Chinese Skullcap Inhibits the 5alpha-reductase enzyme-
Baicalein has been shown to inhibit the 5alpha-reductase enzyme, which converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT).  DHT is strongly associated with the development of prostate enlargement (benign prostatic hyperplasia) and prostate cancer.  As such, baicalein is reported to be potentially useful for the prevention and/or treatment of androgen-dependent (testosterone-driven) disorders, including prostate enlargement and prostate cancer.


Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra)-Anti-androgenic and activates alpha and beta estrogen receptors and blocks 5-ar - Strong, but take in moderation!
Use with extreme caution

-For most disorders: Take 200 mg standardized extract in pill form three times a day, or 20 to 45 drops, three times a day, of a 1:5 tincture. (The 1:5 tincture represents one part herb is soaked in five parts liquid


Pumpkin Seed Oil: Has been demonstrated to inhibit DHT formation through the inhibitory effect on 5-alpha-reductase activity. Pumpkin seed oil breaks down DHT via the liver.


Emu Oil: Research has shown that emu oil contains a high level of linolenic acid which further research has shown to be an efficient antiandrogen. Linolenic acid is a potent 5 alpha reductase inhibitor and may be usefull in the treatment of disorders related to the hormone Dihydrotestosterone. Linolenic Acid has been suggested to be of use in the disorders such as benign prostratic hyperplasma, acne androgenetic alopecia and hirsuitism.


Even though it's not an AA it's worth mentioning because of its interaction.

L-Lysine: While L-Lysine is NOT a DHT blocker, it may make DHT blockers more effective. Researchers have found that adding a supplementation of L-Lysine can make drugs like Propecia more effective. Since propecia is a DHT inhibitor, as all the natural products mentioned here, the addition of a L-Lysine supplement can make these products also more effective. Studies has shown that L-Lysine combined with a DHT inhibitor can for example promote hair growth in people suffering from androgenetic alopecia.


Considering the potential to block DHT and increase aromatase adding fatty acids makes sense, only don't forget a fitness plan.

Anti-androgenic activity of fatty acids.

In this study, we show that 5alpha-reductase derived from rat fresh liver was inhibited by certain aliphatic free fatty acids. The influences of chain length, unsaturation, oxidation, and esterification on the potency to inhibit 5alpha-reductase activity were studied. Among the fatty acids we tested, inhibitory saturated fatty acids had C12-C16 chains, and the presence of a C==C bond enhanced the inhibitory activity. Esterification and hydroxy compounds were totally inactive. Finally, we tested the prostate cancer cell proliferation effect of free fatty acids. In keeping with the results of the 5alpha-reductase assay, saturated fatty acids with a C12 chain (lauric acid) and unsaturated fatty acids (oleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid) showed a proliferation inhibitory effect on lymph-node carcinoma of the prostate (LNCaP) cells. At the same time, the testosterone-induced prostate-specific antigen (PSA) mRNA expression was down-regulated. These results suggested that fatty acids with 5alpha-reductase inhibitory activity block the conversion of testosterone to 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and then inhibit the proliferation of prostate cancer cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19353546

Evening Primrose Oil- massage, Fibrocystic breast pain, treats hot flashes, relieves PMS symptoms, relieves Eczema, hormone balance, fights breast tumors and diabetes. Reports have GLA-Gamma-Linolenic Acid as helping with RA and arthritis, diabetic neuropathy, ADHD and CFS (chronic fatigue syndrome). And UPDATED to include it being an inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT, (DHT is bad for BOOB GROWTH).

Coconut Oil- Makes connective tissues stronger, superb antioxidant, neutralizes free radicals and slowing down aging, aids in breast feeding, nature's richest source of MCFAs. 5 ar inhibitor, aromatase



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Reishi (Ganoderma lucidum)
Red reishi, commonly known as LingZhi in Chinese, is a mushroom thought to have many health benefits. In a research study exploring the anti-androgenic effects of 20 species of mushrooms, reishi mushrooms had the strongest action in inhibiting testosterone (3). That study found that reishi mushrooms significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony (Paeonia lactiflora)
Chinese peony is a widely grown ornamental plant with several hundred selected cultivars. Many of the cultivars have double flowers with the stamens modified into additional petals. White peony has been important in traditional Chinese medicine and has been shown to affect human androgen levels in vitro. In a 1991 study in the American Journal of Chinese Medicine Takeuchi et al described the effects of paeoniflorin, a compound found in white peony that inhibited the production of testosterone and promoted the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen (7). To date, there have been no studies that translate or explore the clinical effects.

Chaste Tree (Vitex agnus-castus)
Chaste tree (or chasteberry) is a native of the Mediterranean region and is traditionally used to correct hormone imbalances. In ancient times, it was believed to be an anaphrodisiac, hence the name chaste tree. Clinical studies have demonstrated effectiveness of medications produced from extract of the plant in the management of premenstrual syndrome (PMS) and cyclical mastalgia (14). The mechanism of action is presumed to be via dopaminergic effects resulting in changes of prolactin secretion from the anterior pituitary. At low doses, it blocks the activation of D2 receptors in the brain by competitive binding, causing a slight increase in prolactin release. In higher concentrations, the binding activity is sufficient to reduce the release of prolactin (15).

Reduction in prolactin levels affects FSH and estrogen levels in females and testosterone levels in men. There is as yet no information regarding its efficacy in endocrine disease states such as PCOS, however, one small-scale study has demonstrated this prolactin reducing effect in a group of healthy males, and the implication is that it could be of use in mild hyperprolactinemia (16, 17). One could also theorize that it could be refined for use as a male contraceptive, because testosterone reduction should reduce libido and sperm production. This topic is further explored in a review by Grant & Anawalt (18).



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...10-497.pdf

http://endometabol.com/?page=article&article_id=3644

Hiii Lotus! I first want to say thank you for taking the time to write all this wonderful information! I did write you a couple of PM's but when I check my sent messages, there are non to be found. So I wanted to ask you for you opinion on something. I have recently been put on Estradiol and spironolactone for my transition YAY!!!! but of course I find something to be concerned about. Spiro makes me rather weary with the little bit of reresearch I've done. I'm thinking of dropping spiro and asking my doc to up my estradiol dose. Then I'd like to bring in a herb/herbs to keep my T in check. Maybe just White peony as a tea? or that, and reishi? What do you think would be the best course with this plan of mine. I feel like its the right direction but I need some guidance. 

I hope to hear from you soon

Téa

[υαlεƦιε]

Is it okay to take White Peony and PM together at the same time in the morning or should I split them up and have the WP in the morning and the PM at night?

[elle]

I've been transitioning for just over a year, on a mix of oestrogel and herbals.
I tried spiro for a couple of months. It just made me sick.

My experience with herbal AA's is;
1 cup of spearmint tea per day took a while to kick in but worked eventually.
1 cup of reishi tea per day worked well
1 cup of liqurocie tea per day also worked well
1 cup of white peony tea might be the best so far.

I tried green tea and didnt like it.
Have avoided saw palmetto because the info is so confusing.

[pom19]

Is it okay to take White Peony and PM together at the same time in the morning or should I split them up and have the WP in the morning and the PM at night?

WP IS ANTIandrogen and PM is for Estrogen, so yes they can be taken together.  My advice-don’t take too much PM.

[Beverley50]

Pueraria Mirifica – Awesome for breast growth

Reishi-reishi mushrooms – Significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony – Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

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Th above is what I've been reading on this thread. My question is: Should one combine PM with both RM AND WP? Does WP & RM not do the same thing? Why take both in a HRT program? Or am I missing something?

[Lotus]

Pueraria Mirifica – Awesome for breast growth

Reishi-reishi mushrooms – Significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony – Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

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Th above is what I've been reading on this thread. My question is: Should one combine PM with both RM AND WP? Does WP & RM not do the same thing? Why take both in a HRT program? Or am I missing something?

Both are similar, however...there's significant differences. From the research I've covered Reishi Inhibits type I & II 5ar....and WP binds androgen receptors. When i took Reishi i could 4-5 days without needing a shave. Now, on HRT i need a shave within 2days...and that's with my T and free T being non-existent, so go figure.

WP needs to be standardized to contain a minimum of 10% Paeoniflorin (solaray has one i believe). Total glucosides of peony (TGP), contains more than 15 components, BUT Paeoniflorin is the most abundant ingredient and NEEDS to be 90% of the total glucosides.

There's about a gazillion scientific papers on WP and it's benefits, I've posted most of what i think is beneficial for NBE here (at BN). In the BN search engine insert Lotus into the userame and check box for posts (not threads) and you find what I've shared.

Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO.

Can White Peony Root and Red Reishi Mushroom be used together if so what outcome could I see from using them both?

I had WP and reishi in my NBE plan....and have used reishi with HRT. In Chinese herbal medicine WP with reishi pairs the two as a synergy. Reishi inhibits DHT while WP promotes aromatase (inhibits DHT too).

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/peony.htm

Any opinions on Swanson White Peony Root will it work just fine?

Hi BB,

Someone shared the WP content of Swanson's brand a while back (my apologies to the OP I don't remember who though). White peony (standardized) should bump aromatase 2-3 fold (based on scientific literature) a 30% increase, for myself that means an increase of 60-80 pg/mL blood estradiol, though everybody is different. I believe Life Extension sells a standardized capsule but Swanson full spectrum isn't standardized.

It's Swanson's capsules.
I'll have to check the label.

I believe it's not standardized (lol, I have a bottle sitting on the shelf too). Here's a few things about WP, or where I think the rubber needs to meet the road, or more to the point finding a suitable WP supplement that contains two compounds: 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin and pentagalloylglucos, they bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT. Let's let science solve this puzzle of what WP does for NBE.....which I think we just did. The dose could be less than I calculated earlier if these compound and the main glycoside 3'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin are present would be estimated at 1 gram.

Additionally, testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio is also reduced (significantly) by paeoniflorin (white peony).

So, in ovaries WP promotes aromatase, (I believe in the breasts too), inhibits DHT in sebum, inhibits prostate cancer cells, (which means it inhibits C17 @ CYP17 P450 enzyme, a strong anti-androgen. The lab dosage was 2 grams (I'll have to double check). Roots be king.

Androgen modulators from the roots of Paeonia lactiflora (paeoniae radix) grown and processed in nara prefecture, Japan.
Washida K1, Itoh Y, Iwashita T, Nomoto K.
Author information


Abstract
The monoterpene glycoside, 3'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin (1), and four known compounds, 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin (2), pentagalloylglucose (3), 6'-O-benzoylpaeoniflorin (4) and 6'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin (5), were isolated from the roots of Paeonia lactiflora that had been grown and processed in Nara prefecture, Japan, as androgen modulators. Their structures were elucidated based on spectroscopic analysis. Compounds 2 and 3 showed strong androgen receptor (AR) binding activity (IC(50) values 33.7 and 4.1 microg/ml, respectively), 1, 4 and 5 showed weak activity (20, 31 and 12% at 120 microg/ml, respectively). However, paeoniflorin (6) and albiflorin (7), the structures of which are related to 1, 2, 4 and 5, showed no activity. These results suggested that both the structure of albiflorin and the galloyl moiety are important for 2 to show strong AR binding activity. Furthermore, compounds 1-5 inhibited growth of an androgen-dependent LNCaP-FGC (prostate cancer cell line), and were indicated to be AR antagonists. Compounds 2 and 3 might be candidates as safe, natural anti-androgens.


Testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio was lowered significantly by paeoniflorin, and two compounds, 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin and pentagalloylglucos bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT.

[Beverley50]

Pueraria Mirifica – Awesome for breast growth

Reishi-reishi mushrooms – Significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony – Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Th above is what I've been reading on this thread. My question is: Should one combine PM with both RM AND WP? Does WP & RM not do the same thing? Why take both in a HRT program? Or am I missing something?

Both are similar, however...there's significant differences. From the research I've covered Reishi Inhibits type I & II 5ar....and WP binds androgen receptors. When i took Reishi i could 4-5 days without needing a shave. Now, on HRT i need a shave within 2days...and that's with my T and free T being non-existent, so go figure.

WP needs to be standardized to contain a minimum of 10% Paeoniflorin (solaray has one i believe). Total glucosides of peony (TGP), contains more than 15 components, BUT Paeoniflorin is the most abundant ingredient and NEEDS to be 90% of the total glucosides.

There's about a gazillion scientific papers on WP and it's benefits, I've posted most of what i think is beneficial for NBE here (at BN). In the BN search engine insert Lotus into the userame and check box for posts (not threads) and you find what I've shared.

Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO.

"Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO."

Thank you! I get it. This stuff is very complicated but I'll take both WP & RM on your recommendation.    

Bev