[The First Aria]

Really interesting replies.

I knew BO can cause eye damage.  Remember Lotus mentioning having a real problem with detached retina from using BO. That's scary!  

But cataracts too?  Suspect as you say, it could make an underlying problem worse and/or a combo effect.  Definitely worth keeping aware of though. 

Knew that muscle and tendons are affected with HRT.  But just assumed it was more a reduction in their size and strength that would be the main result.  But even though the underlying bone is not supposed to be affected much (though some seem to report it actually may with time?), I suppose it's pretty obvious that if the connective tissue "loosens up" it will have a direct knock on with posture, movement and positioning of the bones.   

Just shows, always things to learn and the benefit of sharing experiences.

Thanks 

When I first went into my GD's office for "Our Talk", I was really amazed that HRT had an effect on more than "ass and boobs".  I can elaborate on some of the effects I've noticed.

1. Eye's, as mentioned above, HRT can cause or speed up cataracts and glaucoma.  Especially if the dose rate is more than the body can use at the time.

2. Feet:  When I first started to cross dress.  (About 30 yrs ago), I had a problem finding women's shoes that were size 10 1/2.  Now, I can wear women's size 9 or 9 1/2 depending on the style.

3. Back:  DON'T lift more than 70% of what you could before HRT....   Due to softening and realignment, you can herniate or rupture a disc or pull a tendon.  Especially in your lower back.  That warning comes from personal experience and my GD.  He say's until after about 4 years of HRT when the body stops structurally changing due to E, & P  ..

4. If you already have arthritis or any bone/connective tissue problems, you will "feel" it even more.  It doesn't necessarily cause further decline, but due to the changing body, it can exacerbate pains and aches.  ( I can definitely attest that that one.

Along with the sometimes overnight changes, that is why most credible GD's highly suggest finding and using a mental health professional.  One that has a good grasp of the mental and physical changes that do/will and can occur..  It can be overwhelming at times.  ( Personal Experience talking again!)

[Katie]

Wow! Aria I`m astonished that all these happened to you! and really sorry to hear that they did

I`v had almost the exact opposite of those effects, my aches and pains all vanished entirely, my arthritis (hereditry) hasn`t given me any trouble whatsoever, and the tedonitis I used to suffer from hand rolling sheets and wires of silver has almost gone.
my general overall health has never been better exacept maybe when i was a kid, my energy is amazing, I no longer have insomnia. there`s too much good to list really, i would have expected everyones experience to have been similar, I guess I was wrong xx

[RunsWthSzissors]

Couple of questions to the group if I may? 

I have read in a few places that as HRT progresses it can effect the shape of the eye, and consequentially eyesight.  But as for how it affects eyesight and by what degree, as I try to dig a little deeper it all gets obscured by techno-jargon and just becomes increasingly vague. 

Also, the female pelvis is tilted slightly more back than in males.  It is accepted that bone structure doesn't change under HRT, but HRT clearly does affect muscle and tendons.  It has been inferred that as posture changes the pelvis may actually tilt more towards the female position?           

I wonder, has anyone else come across these points or even perhaps even personal experience?

I think you have your 'facts' mixed up. Women tend to have MORE anterior pelvic tilt than men on average. Anterior tilt is forward with an increased lumbar curve. A posterior tilt would decrease the lumbar curve. And I hate to break to you all, the amount of tilt we're talking about would NOT account for a decrease in height of even an inch, let alone two or three. It simply isn't possible biomechanically. Here's the first result of a google search for "pelvic tilt by gender":

Compared with men, women demonstrated larger quadriceps angles, more genu recurvatum, greater anterior pelvic tilt, and more femoral anteversion.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2681213/

During puberty, estrogen causes the growth plates in the long bones to close which is the main reason that women on average are shorter and have smaller bone structure than men. Bone shape and internal configuration will continue to change/vary over a person's lifetime per Wolff's Law: 

“Every change in the function of a bone is followed by certain definite changes in its internal architecture and its external conformation.” 

However, the pelvis fully ossifies by about 25 for most individuals so that except for changes accountable to Wolff's Law, the overall size and shape of the pelvis is VERY unlikely to change, even secondary to HRT. 

This is good synopsis of factors affecting bone growth and differentiation: https://www.britannica.com/science/bone-...#ref470946

I also find Aria's precautions (from her GD no less) about lifting and the discs in the spine totally wrong. I'm a PT and have studied this extensively and there's NO science to support this point of view. If it were so, women should never do weight lifting. The discs in the spine will NOT soften and then get harder. That's (sorry to say) utter nonsense. In a mature adult, testosterone, estradiol and progesterone do affect bone health, but not to the extent seen during puberty when an individual is still developing. Research also has demonstrated that ligamentous laxity (at least in the knees) changes with a female's menstrual cycle, but again this isn't what we're talking about, and I've never seen any research showing that mature spinal discs are affected, even in natal females. Really, that MD should be _____ (fill in the blank)! 

If you were lifting before you start HRT, keep it up and you can continue to lift your usual weights. That was literally my experience taking estradiol injections for about 3 years. Was it harder to maintain strength, yes, but during that period I actually increased my resistance/weights for UE lifting. I've seen reports of transgender women who lift competitively (before and after their transition) but have never heard of the kinds of injuries Aria's MD is suggesting. The connective tissue in tendons and ligaments responds similarly to bone: if you want to keep it strong it MUST be subjected to proper levels of stress (tension) on a regular basis, or it will get weaker.

Do remember, many (most???) MD's know jack squat about exercise and even less about cross-gender hormone treatments, even endocrinologists. I would venture to say that most of the MD's who write PT prescriptions for my patients have ZERO idea about what I do, what effects it has and how to help their patients through exercise. Most trans women loose muscle mass and get weaker because they WANT to, not because it's certain to happen. They want to because they think it looks more feminine. If that's your motivation and choice, fine, good for you, but it's not a certainty simply because of HRT. 

Also, on my last eye exam (last year) my eyes had significantly improved in terms of vision correction with no signs of cataracts or other problems, aside from floaters which are age related. Also, also, while still taking weekly estradiol injections, my feet grew in both length and width. Go figure! I have read reports of trans women whose feet got smaller, but it's probably due to individual variation and response. 

[Pandora56]

Awesome reply RunsWthSzissors!

[The First Aria]

Couple of questions to the group if I may? 

I have read in a few places that as HRT progresses it can effect the shape of the eye, and consequentially eyesight.  But as for how it affects eyesight and by what degree, as I try to dig a little deeper it all gets obscured by techno-jargon and just becomes increasingly vague. 

Also, the female pelvis is tilted slightly more back than in males.  It is accepted that bone structure doesn't change under HRT, but HRT clearly does affect muscle and tendons.  It has been inferred that as posture changes the pelvis may actually tilt more towards the female position?           

I wonder, has anyone else come across these points or even perhaps even personal experience?

I think you have your 'facts' mixed up. Women tend to have MORE anterior pelvic tilt than men on average. Anterior tilt is forward with an increased lumbar curve. A posterior tilt would decrease the lumbar curve. And I hate to break to you all, the amount of tilt we're talking about would NOT account for a decrease in height of even an inch, let alone two or three. It simply isn't possible biomechanically. Here's the first result of a google search for "pelvic tilt by gender":

Compared with men, women demonstrated larger quadriceps angles, more genu recurvatum, greater anterior pelvic tilt, and more femoral anteversion.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2681213/

During puberty, estrogen causes the growth plates in the long bones to close which is the main reason that women on average are shorter and have smaller bone structure than men. Bone shape and internal configuration will continue to change/vary over a person's lifetime per Wolff's Law: 

“Every change in the function of a bone is followed by certain definite changes in its internal architecture and its external conformation.” 

However, the pelvis fully ossifies by about 25 for most individuals so that except for changes accountable to Wolff's Law, the overall size and shape of the pelvis is VERY unlikely to change, even secondary to HRT. 

This is good synopsis of factors affecting bone growth and differentiation: https://www.britannica.com/science/bone-...#ref470946

I also find Aria's precautions (from her GD no less) about lifting and the discs in the spine totally wrong. I'm a PT and have studied this extensively and there's NO science to support this point of view. If it were so, women should never do weight lifting. The discs in the spine will NOT soften and then get harder. That's (sorry to say) utter nonsense. In a mature adult, testosterone, estradiol and progesterone do affect bone health, but not to the extent seen during puberty when an individual is still developing. Research also has demonstrated that ligamentous laxity (at least in the knees) changes with a female's menstrual cycle, but again this isn't what we're talking about, and I've never seen any research showing that mature spinal discs are affected, even in natal females. Really, that MD should be _____ (fill in the blank)! 

If you were lifting before you start HRT, keep it up and you can continue to lift your usual weights. That was literally my experience taking estradiol injections for about 3 years. Was it harder to maintain strength, yes, but during that period I actually increased my resistance/weights for UE lifting. I've seen reports of transgender women who lift competitively (before and after their transition) but have never heard of the kinds of injuries Aria's MD is suggesting. The connective tissue in tendons and ligaments responds similarly to bone: if you want to keep it strong it MUST be subjected to proper levels of stress (tension) on a regular basis, or it will get weaker.

Do remember, many (most???) MD's know jack squat about exercise and even less about cross-gender hormone treatments, even endocrinologists. I would venture to say that most of the MD's who write PT prescriptions for my patients have ZERO idea about what I do, what effects it has and how to help their patients through exercise. Most trans women loose muscle mass and get weaker because they WANT to, not because it's certain to happen. They want to because they think it looks more feminine. If that's your motivation and choice, fine, good for you, but it's not a certainty simply because of HRT. 

Also, on my last eye exam (last year) my eyes had significantly improved in terms of vision correction with no signs of cataracts or other problems, aside from floaters which are age related. Also, also, while still taking weekly estradiol injections, my feet grew in both length and width. Go figure! I have read reports of trans women whose feet got smaller, but it's probably due to individual variation and response. 

Sorry RWS, you're full of sh&t.  I have went from 5'10" 3 yrs ago to , just measured at yearly checkup today, at 5'7".  I asked, and was told by my regular doctor, that in MTF estrogen battles with T and about 80% of the time and creates some sort of an enzyme, it does configures ligaments and cartilage.  So, Physical Therapist.....  That from an Internist and a GD Doctor who has been helping transgenders for at least 25 yrs.  As well as the fact that HRT has been linked to development and or acceleration of cataracts.

[Katie]

with regard to the height loss, I also have lost some, I was a good 5`8 now I`m only 5`6.
I know Age can do this to us, so I thought maybe it`s that, but it Really sped up when taking HRT, so maybe it`s a combination of causes?
I know my joints are much freer and lithe, so perhaps muscle loss plays a part in it as well? like the opposite of being muscle-bound. xx

[oki]

I've heard from a trustworthy source about a transwoman who lost 6 cm on HRT. I've lost one after 2 years of NBE and 2 months of HRT. 3 inches Stevenator? Jaw dropping:)

[Stevenator.]

I've heard from a trustworthy source about a transwoman who lost 6 cm on HRT. I've lost one after 2 years of NBE and 2 months of HRT. 3 inches Stevenator? Jaw dropping

I probably should have clarified ... When I was in my 20s, I was six foot even. Around age 40 I did lose an inch, so for the last 15 yrs I was 5’11” ... After two years of NBE, I’m 5’9”, so probably closer to two inches, but, I’m 3 inches shorter now, than at my tallest in life.  Five Foot Nine is still a mind-fuck for me ...

[jannet.duff]

I believe most of my height loss is age related. 
Not HRT related.

[julieTG]

I’m undecided at moment on height loss whether age or hrt ?


Julie