[auzifreek9]

I've been thinking about this recently, and I'm just not sure where I fall? According to my most recent blood tests, my doctor summed
it up by telling me I have medium range T and low range E, so then why do I have most of the symptoms of high levels of E in men?
Such as;

Gynecomastia (  Yay!)
Sexual Dysfunction - Low libido, E.D (Viagra didn't work for me) and _never_ had any morning wood
Large abdominal / belly fat - At my worst it was 105 kgs, used to be 95, now I'm down to about 85
No muscles in arms / legs (I could try some dumbbells, just never have)
Emotional and easily depressed / mood swings (also associated with high E in women)


Thankfully, I am not at risk of Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BPH) or Type 2 diabetes, both checked and all good there!

I also have a few symptoms of high E in women, namely cold feet (thyroid dysfunction?) and am prone to chills. Often when I go to
the bathroom at 2AM+ in winter I get bad shivers and struggle to get back to bed!


Physically, I have;

Curly hair
Smooth skin
NO chest or back hair ever!
Little facial / neck / leg hair
Invisible Adams Apple / goiter
Tanner stage 3 genitals and breasts
Very fat thighs

So yeah, colour me puzzled! If anyone wants my hormone levels, I'll post them.

[Beverley50]

I've been thinking about this recently, and I'm just not sure where I fall? According to my most recent blood tests, my doctor summed
it up by telling me I have medium range T and low range E, so then why do I have most of the symptoms of high levels of E in men?
Such as;

Gynecomastia (  Yay!)
Sexual Dysfunction - Low libido, E.D (Viagra didn't work for me) and _never_ had any morning wood
Large abdominal / belly fat - At my worst it was 105 kgs, used to be 95, now I'm down to about 85
No muscles in arms / legs (I could try some dumbbells, just never have)
Emotional and easily depressed / mood swings (also associated with high E in women)


Thankfully, I am not at risk of Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BPH) or Type 2 diabetes, both checked and all good there!

I also have a few symptoms of high E in women, namely cold feet (thyroid dysfunction?) and am prone to chills. Often when I go to
the bathroom at 2AM+ in winter I get bad shivers and struggle to get back to bed!


Physically, I have;

Curly hair
Smooth skin
NO chest or back hair ever!
Little facial / neck / leg hair
Invisible Adams Apple / goiter
Tanner stage 3 genitals and breasts
Very fat thighs

So yeah, colour me puzzled! If anyone wants my hormone levels, I'll post them.

Since your levels are medium, as you say, you might respond quickly to HRT, as what happened in my case. I didn't have any medical condition per se, yet I had "significant" breast growth (in male terms) by using only fenugreek, in a short period of time.

So why not read the main topic with all of the fantastic info, and start your program. It's an exciting journey :-)

[The First Aria]

Auzi.....  I think your body is waiting for you to either fish, or cut bait.  I had many of the same symptoms till my blood levels of E got high enough to switch my body's mode....  So, either stop, or go full force with a good doctor to feminize.  And, even if you just want boobs, you're feminizing!

[Laura]

I think that Aria is right about a person's body saying when it is time to fish or cut bait. I have been on BO (Swanson) exclusively since the middle of July, with my current dosage 2000 mg per day.  I know that I have started budding because I can feel the little mass growing, and my breasts are constantly sore.  And I got myself fitted and bought 42A bras which actually provide support.  I know all of the myths and wives tales about BO changing someones endocrine system, but where there is smoke, there is also fire.  The nurse for my primary care physician called and said that the doctor wants to retake my blood tests.  When I asked why, she said that my E levels were out of whack, which was obviously not a surprise to me. 

JulieTG has warned us (if you have read the old posts) that using BO can flip your endocrine system.  And once flipped, you have to live with that decision for the rest of your life.  Of course, the doctor can read between the lines and will know that I am self medicating. I wonder if it is time to start pharma.

Laura

[The First Aria]

I think that Aria is right about a person's body saying when it is time to fish or cut bait. I have been on BO (Swanson) exclusively since the middle of July, with my current dosage 2000 mg per day.  I know that I have started budding because I can feel the little mass growing, and my breasts are constantly sore.  And I got myself fitted and bought 42A bras which actually provide support.  I know all of the myths and wives tales about BO changing someones endocrine system, but where there is smoke, there is also fire.  The nurse for my primary care physician called and said that the doctor wants to retake my blood tests.  When I asked why, she said that my E levels were out of whack, which was obviously not a surprise to me. 

JulieTG has warned us (if you have read the old posts) that using BO can flip your endocrine system.  And once flipped, you have to live with that decision for the rest of your life.  Of course, the doctor can read between the lines and will know that I am self medicating. I wonder if it is time to start pharma.

Laura

I agree Laura....  Lots of folks come on here and say to themselves, "I just want tiny boobs!" or "I just want a little more rear end!".  But a lot of time the same people that say that is still saying that they DON'T want to feminize.  What they don't know is that deep down inside themselves.....  they want more!  They are just lying to themselves in the end.  But, I think it's wise to start with Herbals, not BO.  That's potent sh*t.  And it will change you, more than PM will.  I mean it will rewire your body and throw it into a panic mode....  Hence Mood swings, Hot Flashes ect.

So, if there is any reservation as to what a person really wants, or can handle on a daily basis...  start with the basics.  You can always stop if you want and things usually go back to normal...  with the exception of any REAL breast tissue, that is...  Once you get breast tissue, they only way to get rid of that is to have a mastectomy...  

As far as the size and the changes you may get with Herbals or BO, probably if you really want to feminize, you won't be happy with the results.  Either not enough boobs, or rear not big enough.  Then all you can do is "Wish upon a star" or get real and go complete HRT feminization.  Even that is no guarantee.   Many Gurls opt for at least breast augmentation for just "one more cup size" look.

Anyways, enough of me taking up space in this thread, cause I have caused it to branch out too far as it has gotten.  Sorry

[auzifreek9]

Auzi.....  I think your body is waiting for you to either fish, or cut bait.  I had many of the same symptoms till my blood levels of E got high enough to switch my body's mode....  So, either stop, or go full force with a good doctor to feminize.  And, even if you just want boobs, you're feminizing!

Yeah, you're right Aria, I'm just waiting on my PC to come, then I'll try that alone for 2-3 weeks and see what happens, maybe balancing the hormones, maybe a little growth, whatever. Then I'm going to try PM for a little while longer.

I actually haven't been doing _any_ kind of NBE since September btw, then it was just a little PM experiment with the cream, as I thought I could I target the breasts only. Was I wrong! Applied 2x daily for 3 days to breasts, then stopped, over that time felt absolutely nothing, not a tingle. Then 3 days after that, I woke up in the middle of the night to a bad painful backache right at the base/bottom of my spine/back/hips area,  like a 6 or 7/10! I popped 2 paracetemol pk's and a 15 min hot shower to reduce pain, after that I was good enough to go back to sleep. Even now, I'm thinking, Geez yeah that did hurt, but in a kinda 'oh my funny bone / hurts so good' way! Trust me, if I described it as a 9 or 10, I'd  be screaming "OMF$#!G gotta get to the phone and call an ambulance!!" but it wasn't. 2 nights after that, same thing, only this time it was my hips!!  I could actually FEEL my hips pulsating (with blood, I guess?) and expanding wider! Same deal, 2 pk's, hot shower, sleep it off. I read _somewhere_ here that the theory is the E is actually working to change the male hips/pelvis bone to be more female. Anyway, it made me think I have too much E, so waiting for the PC. I'm actually thinking of trying both the PM & PC at the same time for a while, as Lotus said in one of her posts she believes it'd have like a 300% effect more than just E alone!! Makes sense to me, women's ovaries produce both, that's what we want too!

I do believe both PM and BO are potent in their own ways, and will defo try PM for a while, but I'm leaning more towards BO for long term changes, as I know I want to feminize as much as possible, not just breasts anymore. We don't really get the choice for partial transition do we, as _any_ method of upping our E levels means it's going to affect our male bodies overall, not just one area.
("Hey E, I only want you for breasts!" E says "%$#@ you, I'm inside your blood and I'm going everywhere!")

One last thought - I've read so much here on BO, and this might be an over-simplification of my basic understanding of both PM and
BO but here goes:
  PM: Works by introducing phyto Es into blood stream, mimicking effect of natural E, then our bodies have to balance it out, so that's      why we take AA's like SP/WP/RR, to reduce T, thereby making the PM more effective.

  BO: Works by increasing aromatase activity, which converts T into our own 'natural' E, and eventually shutting down T production,    leading to sterilty ie. max. feminization. (So Tanya Squirrel _is_ right, we really CAN have Ovo-Testes????)

So then, with BO, is it also necessary to take AA like Spearmint tea or WP, or isn't that already being done, and might put too much stress on our testes?
I sent a PM to Stevenator regarding a BO guide .pdf he linked us to from mustgrowbust.com, which it said we should also consider taking Pituitary Glandulars (and AA's too) for extra kick to BO, thoughts? Steve thinks I be an excellent candidate and respond well to BO, so that sounds exciting for me!
(Sorry for such a long post, I think I'm a bit like Lotus that way, just got sooooo many thoughts/questions running through my head!)

Auzi

[Stevenator.]

At this point I’m highly skeptical that B.O. will flip
anything permanently. I got a huge booty from PM. 
I got decent sized boobs from PM. BO did fill them 
out and added some growth. There are several 
threads here with many long term users who have 
gone past the magical six month mark, and they
did not turn into a woman. Same goes for several 
users who blew past the one year mark. I’m sticking 
with BO for the foreseeable future, as I’m getting 
amazing erections with BO. PM killed my erections. 
I have a four month supply of both BO & PM. I’m 
somewhat considering supplementing BO with a low
dose PM, but I’m going to have to look into that more. 
I did order one bottle of Pituitary Support. When I first 
started on BO, I was taking two capsules of PS and it
seemed to greatly magnify the effects of BO. I started 
noticing penis & testicles shrinkage, and my ball sack
turned a very dark color. After two weeks of that I tossed 
the PS and went to BO only. When things stabilized, I 
increased my BO dosage, and honestly the effects of 
BO have seemed to slow. I’m going to again attempt a 
low dose PS supplement to see if things improve. So fa
I’ve got no facial changes on BO. My ass is still huge, 
and my boobs are delightfully small. The look great and 
feel amazing, but I want them bigger. (Of course). I also
would love a mom’s fat ass and fat thighs, but I don’t 
see that happening. I’m growing my hair long now. I have 
no idea how that will work out as my hair is super thick. 
My last cut was mid October. We’ll see. 

But, I see no reason to be afraid of PM and/or BO. 

Good Luck!

[Cindy]

I think that Aria is right about a person's body saying when it is time to fish or cut bait. I have been on BO (Swanson) exclusively since the middle of July, with my current dosage 2000 mg per day.  I know that I have started budding because I can feel the little mass growing, and my breasts are constantly sore.  And I got myself fitted and bought 42A bras which actually provide support.  I know all of the myths and wives tales about BO changing someones endocrine system, but where there is smoke, there is also fire.  The nurse for my primary care physician called and said that the doctor wants to retake my blood tests.  When I asked why, she said that my E levels were out of whack, which was obviously not a surprise to me. 

JulieTG has warned us (if you have read the old posts) that using BO can flip your endocrine system.  And once flipped, you have to live with that decision for the rest of your life.  Of course, the doctor can read between the lines and will know that I am self medicating. I wonder if it is time to start pharma.

Laura

I agree Laura....  Lots of folks come on here and say to themselves, "I just want tiny boobs!" or "I just want a little more rear end!".  But a lot of time the same people that say that is still saying that they DON'T want to feminize.  What they don't know is that deep down inside themselves.....  they want more!  They are just lying to themselves in the end.  But, I think it's wise to start with Herbals, not BO.  That's potent sh*t.  And it will change you, more than PM will.  I mean it will rewire your body and throw it into a panic mode....  Hence Mood swings, Hot Flashes ect.

So, if there is any reservation as to what a person really wants, or can handle on a daily basis...  start with the basics.  You can always stop if you want and things usually go back to normal...  with the exception of any REAL breast tissue, that is...  Once you get breast tissue, they only way to get rid of that is to have a mastectomy...  

As far as the size and the changes you may get with Herbals or BO, probably if you really want to feminize, you won't be happy with the results.  Either not enough boobs, or rear not big enough.  Then all you can do is "Wish upon a star" or get real and go complete HRT feminization.  Even that is no guarantee.   Many Gurls opt for at least breast augmentation for just "one more cup size" look.

Anyways, enough of me taking up space in this thread, cause I have caused it to branch out too far as it has gotten.  Sorry

Sorry to revive an old post. Tried BO to no effect, but ended with oral estradiol which has helped.