[Penny4youthots]

Hi everyone! I've been lurking here for a month or so and I've started taking PM and some other things in the last week. I'm going to be an aberration on these forums, as breast growth is probably my least desired result from the herbal supplements I've been taking. I'm non-binary and not really looking to do full HRT. I am interested in the other benefits of estrogen: redistributed fat, less body hair growth, softer skin, etc. though I think I would be happy with some barely-there breast tissue and more pronounced nipples and areolae. I am married and my wife is very supportive and accepting of me, but for a variety of reasons I am more or less closeted in most other facets of my life and would like to be able to continue presenting myself as a man where necessary for now. I thought PM would be a good way to just dip my toe in the water, see how my body might respond, and see how it feels. I am keeping my options open about seeing a doctor about these things a little further down the line, depending on our life situation and how I like what herbal supplements do for me.

This started with a pygeum supplement that I started taking for some urinary problems. I didn't have any identifiable problems that my doctor could find, but after I hit 30 I was not as efficient as I used to be, and the internet suggested that pygeum might help things even if I didn't have an underlying prostate problem. Sure enough, pygeum helped a bunch, and then it had the added bonus of noticeably increased sexual function, at least in the short term. With one capsule a day I would have some increased arousal, stronger orgasms, better erections, and with two to four capsules a day I would have stronger versions of these benefits. But the lower dose had diminishing returns as the weeks would go on, and the higher doses would stop benefiting me within a week or so and would quickly turn into sexual dysfunction in the form of decreased libido and difficulty achieving erection. I was on and off pygeum for the last couple years before finally being spooked and curious enough to do some research. I quickly figured out that pygeum might have some anti-androgenic properties, and being as curious as I was about HRT my research quickly led me here and to Pueraria Mirifica.

Here's the stuff I've been taking so far:

Pueraria Mirifica 500mg capsules from a sketchy-looking seller on amazon. I would have loved to have bought from a brand that people here vouched for, but I couldn't pass up a $7 introduction. I got 60 capsules, hoping it would last me 1-2 months.

White Peony root 500mg capsules from Solaray (Paeonia lactiflora, guaranteed to contain 10% paeoniflorin)

Licorice Root 900mg from Nature's Way, which I might be cutting out completely due to the potential side effects and due to research that suggests that it is as good at inhibiting aromatase as it is at lowering testosterone and having estrogenic effetcs.

Pygeum 500mg (from Swanson?) that I also have stopped taking and would like to stay away from if White Peony is effective, as I have found research that suggests that Pygeum is not only an anti-androgen but also an anti-estrogen.

The story so far: I had been taking Pygeum before starting the other stuff, and I am convinced that its anti-androgenic properties gave me a head start, as I started seeing results within three days in the form of silky smooth skin and my erections completely disappeared, I wasn't even getting morning wood. My erections have somewhat recovered in the last few days, but my nipples have become very perky and sensitive and I am feeling some soreness in my chest on both sides near my armpits. My skin has continued to get softer and feels incredible right now. I also have had a major increase in appetite and have completely surrendered to it, as I was a bit underweight and figured I should try to pack on the pounds while on pueraria. It's only been a week so there isn't much gain, but it feels like fat is going to my chest and to my ass moreso than my gut. I have big shoulders and a fairly wide chest on top of a very slim waist and narrow hips, so I am really hoping to see more weight go to my hips and legs over the course of this experiment. I am not unhappy with my immediate results though I am worried that I will have considerable breast growth in a short time given my current sensations, while I was hoping for little to none in the short term. I do have concerns about the side effects I have experienced and would like to list those here to make sure they don't ring any alarm bells for those of you who have a lot of time with these supplements and on these forums:

My body temperature has been elevated (up to a more average 98.5-99, while I usually run a couple degrees cooler) and I am often cold, especially in my extremities, moreso in my feet than my hands. Or I'm extremely warm. My body can't decide. I have to wear socks around the house now, which is not something I generally do. Anyone else have any experiences like this?

I have had some headaches here and there, a couple of them quite severe. I guess this isn't uncommon with pueraria and with estrogen in general, so I haven't been overly worried.

My legs are achey and sometimes cramping, particularly at night.

I've gotten redness in my feet and sometimes my hands when moving from cold to warm or warm to cold as long as I can remember. I thought this was a normal body response, but it has been noticeably exaggerated since I've started PM, accompanied by a warm sensation. Is this ok? Am I experiencing a circulation problem?

I take adderall for adhd, and it has improved my quality of life considerably. If I had to choose between that and hormones I would absolutely choose the adderall. Any reason why one might interfere with the other?

I am taking one 500mg PM in the morning and have taken a second one in the evening a few times. I took the 900mg licorice twice a day the first couple days and then took it more sporadically and now might completely cut it out. I have taken the 500mg peony twice a day but I'm moving up to three times a day. Anyone have any ideas about white peony dosage or about side effects with too much? That's one big thing I haven't been able to find here on the forums.

Anyone have any thoughts about the pygeum and licorice? I was surprised to see research suggesting their aromatose-inhibiting and anti-estrogenic properties given the way they've been described here on the forums. Anyone have sources that paint a more complete picture?

I did not set out to write so much. Would love any feedback or recommendations, please do not feel obligated to respond to every question! Thanks to everyone for all your research and the huge pool of information I have drawn from!

TLDR: PM and WP are having some effects after only a week, can I take more? Am I making the right choice in discontinuing licorice and pygeum? Anything I can add that doesn't interfere and will be cheap?

[PleasantlyFascinated]

Well come.  It is perfectly plausible to be an aberration here, and enjoy the company of individuals possessing the fluidity of thought necessary to make such explorations in gender expression.  I have been a member for 6-1/2 years, and have yet to touch a molecule of PM.  There is plenty of room for individuals to figure out where they are on this spectrum, and to share and learn.

[AliceDydro]

If you are taking Adderall you should discontinue the Licorice Root as both raise blood pressure. This may be part of the temperature roller coaster you are on.

Since you are looking for localized benefits of female fat distribution while avoiding significant breast tissue, topical creams are the way to go. Keeping your testosterone levels up to some degree will help avoid big breasts, but slowdown feminine growth across the whole body as well. Both PM and WP are anti-androgenic. Hormonal creams including PM are systemic, in that the hormones will still travel through the blood to other parts of your body.

I would suggest making your own PM cream with the powder inside the capsules. The capsule should pull open and expose the powdered PM inside. Mix one 500mg PM with an over-the-counter cream like CeraVe moisturizing cream, using less than half of a heaping teaspoon. Then you can apply this to your hips, thighs or wherever you want growth. The first time you do this you may feel flushed since the cream may cause your body to absorb more of the PM than if you took it orally. You can even do the cream overnight if you get some plastic beauty pants to keep the cream in place.

Life-Flo's Estriol cream would work similarly because like PM it has greater affinity for Estrogen Receptor Beta.

Recently I tried out some topical (vaginal) Premarin cream on my nipples, held in place with Supple Cups. It worked very well, but I've been growing for a few years now. I would not recommend Premarin pills taken orally.

[thegirl1951]

Hi everyone! I've been lurking here for a month or so and I've started taking PM and some other things in the last week. I'm going to be an aberration on these forums, as breast growth is probably my least desired result from the herbal supplements I've been taking. I'm non-binary and not really looking to do full HRT. I am interested in the other benefits of estrogen: redistributed fat, less body hair growth, softer skin, etc. though I think I would be happy with some barely-there breast tissue and more pronounced nipples and areolae. I am married and my wife is very supportive and accepting of me, but for a variety of reasons I am more or less closeted in most other facets of my life and would like to be able to continue presenting myself as a man where necessary for now. I thought PM would be a good way to just dip my toe in the water, see how my body might respond, and see how it feels. I am keeping my options open about seeing a doctor about these things a little further down the line, depending on our life situation and how I like what herbal supplements do for me.

This started with a pygeum supplement that I started taking for some urinary problems. I didn't have any identifiable problems that my doctor could find, but after I hit 30 I was not as efficient as I used to be, and the internet suggested that pygeum might help things even if I didn't have an underlying prostate problem. Sure enough, pygeum helped a bunch, and then it had the added bonus of noticeably increased sexual function, at least in the short term. With one capsule a day I would have some increased arousal, stronger orgasms, better erections, and with two to four capsules a day I would have stronger versions of these benefits. But the lower dose had diminishing returns as the weeks would go on, and the higher doses would stop benefiting me within a week or so and would quickly turn into sexual dysfunction in the form of decreased libido and difficulty achieving erection. I was on and off pygeum for the last couple years before finally being spooked and curious enough to do some research. I quickly figured out that pygeum might have some anti-androgenic properties, and being as curious as I was about HRT my research quickly led me here and to Pueraria Mirifica.

Here's the stuff I've been taking so far:

Pueraria Mirifica 500mg capsules from a sketchy-looking seller on amazon. I would have loved to have bought from a brand that people here vouched for, but I couldn't pass up a $7 introduction. I got 60 capsules, hoping it would last me 1-2 months.

White Peony root 500mg capsules from Solaray (Paeonia lactiflora, guaranteed to contain 10% paeoniflorin)

Licorice Root 900mg from Nature's Way, which I might be cutting out completely due to the potential side effects and due to research that suggests that it is as good at inhibiting aromatase as it is at lowering testosterone and having estrogenic effetcs.

Pygeum 500mg (from Swanson?) that I also have stopped taking and would like to stay away from if White Peony is effective, as I have found research that suggests that Pygeum is not only an anti-androgen but also an anti-estrogen.

The story so far: I had been taking Pygeum before starting the other stuff, and I am convinced that its anti-androgenic properties gave me a head start, as I started seeing results within three days in the form of silky smooth skin and my erections completely disappeared, I wasn't even getting morning wood. My erections have somewhat recovered in the last few days, but my nipples have become very perky and sensitive and I am feeling some soreness in my chest on both sides near my armpits. My skin has continued to get softer and feels incredible right now. I also have had a major increase in appetite and have completely surrendered to it, as I was a bit underweight and figured I should try to pack on the pounds while on pueraria. It's only been a week so there isn't much gain, but it feels like fat is going to my chest and to my ass moreso than my gut. I have big shoulders and a fairly wide chest on top of a very slim waist and narrow hips, so I am really hoping to see more weight go to my hips and legs over the course of this experiment. I am not unhappy with my immediate results though I am worried that I will have considerable breast growth in a short time given my current sensations, while I was hoping for little to none in the short term. I do have concerns about the side effects I have experienced and would like to list those here to make sure they don't ring any alarm bells for those of you who have a lot of time with these supplements and on these forums:

My body temperature has been elevated (up to a more average 98.5-99, while I usually run a couple degrees cooler) and I am often cold, especially in my extremities, moreso in my feet than my hands. Or I'm extremely warm. My body can't decide. I have to wear socks around the house now, which is not something I generally do. Anyone else have any experiences like this?

I have had some headaches here and there, a couple of them quite severe. I guess this isn't uncommon with pueraria and with estrogen in general, so I haven't been overly worried.

My legs are achey and sometimes cramping, particularly at night.

I've gotten redness in my feet and sometimes my hands when moving from cold to warm or warm to cold as long as I can remember. I thought this was a normal body response, but it has been noticeably exaggerated since I've started PM, accompanied by a warm sensation. Is this ok? Am I experiencing a circulation problem?

I take adderall for adhd, and it has improved my quality of life considerably. If I had to choose between that and hormones I would absolutely choose the adderall. Any reason why one might interfere with the other?

I am taking one 500mg PM in the morning and have taken a second one in the evening a few times. I took the 900mg licorice twice a day the first couple days and then took it more sporadically and now might completely cut it out. I have taken the 500mg peony twice a day but I'm moving up to three times a day. Anyone have any ideas about white peony dosage or about side effects with too much? That's one big thing I haven't been able to find here on the forums.

Anyone have any thoughts about the pygeum and licorice? I was surprised to see research suggesting their aromatose-inhibiting and anti-estrogenic properties given the way they've been described here on the forums. Anyone have sources that paint a more complete picture?

I did not set out to write so much. Would love any feedback or recommendations, please do not feel obligated to respond to every question! Thanks to everyone for all your research and the huge pool of information I have drawn from!

TLDR: PM and WP are having some effects after only a week, can I take more? Am I making the right choice in discontinuing licorice and pygeum? Anything I can add that doesn't interfere and will be cheap?

A number of people on this forum suggest going slow and monitor how your body reacts to different herbs.  Along those lines of thought you may want to consider taking just one herb supplement at a time to see the side effects before you add additional supplements.  As one person has said (paraphrase) its not a race but a marathon.

I and others have had negative side effects WRT high blood pressure.  You may want to buy a BP monitor (cheap medical insurance for about $40).

Once you have the side effect issues under control you could then start adding combinations of herbs. Additionally, you may find some of the herbs are doing nothing for you.  In medicine, less is more (i.e., better health).

Just my thoughts.

TG

[JustAbbey]

Welcome! I would definitely add magnesium, calcium and vitamin C to your daily supplementation. When I first started, I had headaches and muscle aches, and that stopped immediately once I added the calcium and magnesium.

Also, the quality of the supplements can make a big difference in how you feel. Generally, you get what you pay for, and the more expensive brands will have better processing, quality control, etc.

On the changes - you’ll notice a lot more growth in the breast area and lack of function in the testes before you’ll notice many of the of the other secondary sex changes like fat distribution, hair regrowth, etc. Fat cells (adipose tissue) takes a long time to grow in new places, and even then you’re largely stuck with the fat deposits you already have unless you use some mechanical form of fat removal (liposuction or cryolipolysis).

That said, start with a lower dose (500-1000mg of PM) and see how you feel. I’ve had great luck with White Peony.

Good luck!

[Penny4youthots]

I am back with an update after about two months of taking only PM and WP. The side effects and discomfort I experienced early on (some leg cramps, weird temperature fluctuations) disappeared pretty quickly. My sex drive and function bounced back in a big way and my skin stopped feeling so soft and my nipples started to return to normal, so I gradually upped my PM dose before settling at 1000mg twice a day. After finishing two bottles of the first cheap brand I found on Amazon my skin had become soft again and my nipples went back to being perpetually sore and erect. I also continued to try to gain weight to see how that would work. In the first month or so of this experiment I quickly put on ten+ pounds. As others mentioned in this thread, I knew not to expect any major redistribution of fat. As I mentioned in my initial post, however, my chest was looking as flabby as it was when I was a good 20 pounds heavier, and despite gaining weight and seeing it in my face and my ass I was pleasantly surprised to find that I was not storing belly fat the way you would expect for a male in his thirties that comes from a family of obese men with huge bellies.

Things quickly escalated when I tried a new brand on Amazon (which of course is now unavailable, so I will have to switch again). Within several days of switching brands I had noticed a drastic change to my skin. Last week I noticed that my extremely achey and sensitive right nipple was puffed out a bit, and there was a painful little mass underneath. Yesterday I realized my left nipple had followed suit, and I was inspired to log in here and check in. Also in the last week I started experiencing serious sexual dysfunction again, so I think it's safe to say the supplements are doing their thing. I still don't know how far I'll be taking this or what my end goal is, but I feel great.

My favorite change so far has been the way my body looks and feels. It's very subtle, but I cannot believe how slim my waist is compared to my hips. I took my measurements for my wife to make something for me last September when I weighed a bit less than I do now. My hips were 39 inches and my waist was 31 inches, which is already a somewhat feminine ratio. My hips have always been narrow but I've been blessed with a bubble butt, which accounted for my 39 inch hips despite being so slim. My measurements today are 41 and 31. The numbers don't seem vastly different until you think about the implications of gaining two inches to your hips and ass while your gut stays relatively unchanged. When I first started gaining weight I had noticed that extra flab in my chest and eventually I did indeed start to store fat in my gut, but in the last few weeks with this new brand of PM my chest and stomach look great again. Soft, but definitely not flabby. When I started taking PM I was hardly the toned, muscular specimen I was in my mid-20's but I still had very masculine-looking muscle definition in a few places, particularly my arms and shoulders. That's rapidly disappearing. I'd say my thighs are looking curvier and bigger but I think they're actually just a little less muscular.

I had assumed that some of the changes to my muscles and fat distribution I have experienced so far would take 6-12 months, not 9 weeks. My ass and hips looks like they did when I was 185 lbs, while my stomach looks more like when I'm 165 lbs. My pants fit differently, and if they cannot sit higher on my hips than I used to wear them then I cannot wear them. This is true even of pants that I have been able to wear at my absolute heaviest. My wife knew that I was experimenting with some of these supplements, but the other day she demanded to know what workout I had been doing to have my pants fit the way they were. The truth is that despite my intentions to accompany PM with a workout routine, I have not intentionally exercised since I started this whole thing. I don't know why I have gotten such good results, or whether they can be partially attributed to some other factor like my nutrition or the medications I am on. I've wondered if I'm just genetically inclined to be more sensitive to these hormonal changes, as I have noticed from lurking here that some people have their breast buds start to develop within a month while others might need higher doses for six months before they see similar results.

I feel a growing sense of dread, as at some point in the future I will have to start taking breaks or stop altogether if I want my sex life to continue as it is and if I don't want to have visible breasts. As it stands right now the changes are probably invisible to everyone but my wife, who occasionally mentions how silky and soft I feel lately and still suspects I am hiding a secret butt workout from her. She knows why my nipples are more pronounced and what I've been doing, but I think she was pretty skeptical that there would be substantial changes. I'm sure she is slowly coming around. I love these small changes and am not thrilled by the idea of losing them.

[Penny4youthots]

I also wanted to thank everyone who responded with tips, encouragement, and warnings. I have taken the things I have learned about licorice root very seriously and do not want to mess with it, and I might try PM as a cream or lotion in the future. I also forgot to report on another thing potentially affected by PM and any sort of hormone-related changes: my hair growth seems largely unchanged, though it might be growing back slower and thinner on my legs, particularly my thighs, and in the middle of my abdomen on my lower chest and above my belly button. So in the places where it was already thinnest, more or less. But it's hard to measure these things and it's possible I am just newly noticing just how much slower my hair already grows in these areas.

[marshallenfj]

Hi Penny,

Congrats on your results!  You're lucky. Yeah, it seems like these herbs are very effective on you.  You're so slim! You have a great body to start this from and it seems like that helps a lot to get/notice results.  Plus, it must be so nice to have a supportive partner.

You and I have very similar goals, so I'm curious about your progress, how you'll continue, if other herbs might factor into what you take and what effect they might have on you.

I'm also nonbinary and want curves and other bodily changes like soft skin with minimal breast growth, all while maintaining erections and performance.  Some breast growth for myself to enjoy is great, but I want to keep presenting male and have them small and unnoticeable, if at all.  I also want the mental/emotional changes people talk about.  You said you don't have a specific end in mind, but have you experienced those nonphysical changes?  Apparently, some people start up this herbal HRT for some small physical changes and get hooked on the way it makes them feel, going much farther than they originally intended.  So it's worth considering.

We're using the same herbs but very different bases to start with.  I'm tall, large, and heavy, mostly muscular, but with flab and a small belly. Thinning head hair, but hairy elsewhere with a thick beard. Late 20's.  Single. Seems like I have a lot of T or DHT to overcome so progress is slow, especially since I'm still experimenting with which herbs I like and figuring out how far I want to go.

Pretty much everyone here recommends the Ainterol brand for PM and I got a rec from another user for Hawaii Pharm WP, so I use both of those and they seem like good quality, if you're looking for good brands.  Like others here recommended, I tried Ainterol's PM breast cream on my hips, used a full tube by massaging one or two beads into my glutes daily.  I think it was effective?  Can't say for sure because I had just started and was not at all consistent with what I was taking, but my ass definitely felt different for a time.  I stopped that because it wasn't cost-effective and I wanted to nail down the other herbs I liked.

Other staples for me are maca and green tea.  Maca's supposedly a superfood that's just great for your health and hormones in general, increases libido and energy (I can vouch for the libido and helps with erectile dysfunction), and, anecdotally, a lot of people say it's great for growing your hips and butt with exercise.  Green tea reduces DHT and raises estradiol, according to Lotus. Her posts are super helpful for understanding, if you haven't seen them. 
[ https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=24358 ] [https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17416 ]

So for you, the licorice root extract was your anti-androgen and you decided to not use it anymore?  For the the health reasons only, or did you just not need an AA?  It seems like you might not since you're not going for huge breasts and your herbs are already effective.  I used to use Saw Palmetto for my AA since it also has some effect reducing estrogen, so some transwomen on actual HRT on other sites were apparently using to maintain erections.  SP made me dizzy and easily fatigued so I stopped with it.  I think I did feel more effect from my estrogenic herbs on it, but this might be placebo, was licorice the same for you?  I'm considering adding it but yeah, the health complications with blood pressure seem dangerous.  Do you even want an AA now?

Don't feel like you have to reply to everything, I'm a long-winded typer.  Just wanted to put that all out there in case it was helpful or if you could help me learn more.  Good luck with your progress!