[thegirl1951]

Thanks for the info about PM and FG.  I am not on PM.

There is a chance that I am experiencing some calf cramping on FG.  Maybe my dose is too high.  I will try to change things around and see if that is a side effect of FG oil.  Everyone responds differently to drugs.
For those on blood thinners like Warfarin, FG has vit K in it and that will effect your INR numbers.

I don't have the scientific knowledge or gift to understand all of the above, but I can tell you my experience with fenugreek.

It was suggested to me by a guy on another site who has huge breasts and said that he did it with sole use of fenugreek over 10 years.

I used 2 610 mg capsules, 3 times a day for a little over  a year and a half.  With this I used a single dose of about 1100mg daily of saw palmetto, and 1 tablespoon of flax seed oil in a morning protein shake. 

In that time, my breasts became fuller, adding close to an inch to my bust.  There was no difference in the aerolae or nipples. I had no other side effects other than what might have been an increased libido.  

Currently I am back on 2 mg of estradiol a day along with the saw palmetto and "prostate health" capsules to help lower DHT.

I will probably go back on the fenugreek after 6 months on the estradiol.

Any suggestions for faster or better results? More growth of the aereolae?

Thanks! 
Joey


Seiya Wrote:  [/url]
Could you please apprise us about the dosage of fennel, spearmint, and flaxseeds consumed by you along with fenugreek seeds6g/60 kg/day)?

Also, please suggest how to cycle the intake of fenugreek seeds to achieve feminization-tyoe body fat.    


Thanks so much for sharing for this study! I've had accelerated breast growth with fenugreek (6g/60kg/day) so far in combination with fennel, spearmint and flaxseed (I'm doing an experiment with commonly found grocery store items) and was experimenting with smaller doses to find the minimum dosage and was wondering why my libido was flaring up so much. Now I see it's not a good idea to use such a low dose!


It's important to be aware when herbs can have biphasic or even triphasic effects, having completely different or opposite effects in small, medium and large doses or when mixed with other herbs. The endocrine system and our metabolism is quite complex!


A study done on male and female rabbits found that replacing 30% of their food intake with fenugreek lowered testosterone by 60% in the males at three months and increased progesterone by 110% in the females at 20 days in the experiment.[1] Another experiment on female rats given 900mg/kg/day exerted strong progestogenic activity on the vagina,[2] roughly a 9g/60kg/day human equivalent dose. Another study on male mice found fenugreek at 610 mg/kg/day increased estradiol levels by 40%, lowered testosterone by 20% and increased prolactin by 20%,[3] which is roughly a 3g/60kg/day human equivalent dose.


To me this seems to suggest fenugreek's effects are coming from stimulating hormone production somehow, which results in elevated levels of progesterone in higher doses that is converting testosterone into estradiol, since progesterone stimulates prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) production,[4] which stimulates aromatase.[5] This lead me to think it could be acting on 3β-HSD activity that converts pregnenolone to progesterone and androstenediol into testosterone, which I then found a study that showed fenugreek does exactly that to enhance hormone production by upregulating 3β-HSD activity and HMG-CoA reductase activity (that aids in the production of cholesterol, a precursor to pregnenolone), at least in male diabetic rats which almost returned to normal hormone levels with 50mg of hydroalcoholic extract/kg/day.[6] (Note: although fenugreek may upregulate HMG-CoA reductase activity, it actually lowers cholesterol,[9][10] possibly by metabolizing it into pregnenolone via upregulating P450scc but I haven't confirmed this yet. I'll research into this more sometime.)


Progesterone is important for areolae and breast growth, as it also indirectly stimulates epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) from PGE2 potently stimulating production of amphiregulin,[5] which stimulates EGFR and also activates COX-2 and produces even more PGE2 in a positive feedback loop.[5][7] People with breast hypertrophy often present with extremely large areolae from EGF stimuation. The vitamin D receptor inhibits this feedback loop,[8] but this pathway is not the only one involved in breast growth.


However, progesterone is also well-known to be an estrogen receptor alpha (ER-a) antagonist and it may inhibit full feminization of the rest of the body when there are elevated levels of testosterone. Anecdotally, from my own experience seeing people who take fenugreek without cycling in combination with pueraria mirifica, they develop large areolae and beautiful breasts but not as much feminization in their body fat as those not taking fenugreek, which perplexed me for sometime until I learned about progesterone's ER-a antagonism. Women only have elevated progesterone levels for two weeks of their cycle, so fenugreek should probably be cycled every two weeks and taken in a dosage of at least 3g/60kg/day to maximize breast growth and feminization. And when women get pregnant their progesterone and estradiol levels significantly rise for nine months to mature and complete the breasts, something also to keep in mind.


Also fenugreek might not be as effective on people who have diabetes or reduced gonad function from age, ill health or interactions with other herbs. They may need to take more with precaution of possible interactions and adverse effects such as hypoglycemia or hypocholesterolemia. Fenugreek has many protective effects and health benefits on the body but dosages should not exceed 21g/60kg/day in healthy adults.[9]


tl;dr if fenugreek is making you feel frisky, up your dose or discontinue, and remember to cycle on-off every two weeks!


References

1. [/url]Evaluation of the potential antifertility effect of fenugreek seeds in male and female rabbits.
   
   
   
2. Fenugreek seeds estrogenic activity in ovariectomized female rats.
   
   
   
3. Reproductive, cytological and biochemical toxicity of fenugreek in male Swiss albino mice.
   
   
   
4. Effects of sex hormones on production of prostaglandin E2 by human peripheral monocytes.
   
   
   
5. The prostaglandin E2 receptor EP2 is required for cyclooxygenase 2–mediated mammary hyperplasia.
   
   
   
6. Potential protective effect on key steroidogenesis and metabolic enzymes and sperm abnormalities by fenugreek steroids in testis and epididymis of surviving diabetic rats.
   
   
   
7. Cyclooxygenase-2 transactivates the epidermal growth factor receptor through specific E-prostanoid receptors and Tumor Necrosis Factor-α converting enzyme.
   
   
   
8. Vitamin D and the mammary gland: a review on its role in normal development and breast cancer.
   
   
   
9. Fenugreek Uses, Benefits & Dosage.
   
   
   
10. Steroid saponins from fenugreek seeds: Extraction, purification, and pharmacological investigation on feeding behavior and plasma cholesterol.
    

[*]There are much useful information on this website.
I  share a new research about fenugreek:
Effect of fenugreek extract supplement on testosterone levels in male: A meta‐analysis of clinical trials


Different types of glycosides extract of fenugreek have shown androgenic and anabolic effect in male. The aim of the study was to evaluate the effect of fenugreek extract on total testosterone levels in male. Medline via PubMed, Scopus databases, Cochrane Library, Web of Science, and Google Scholar were searched up to November 2018 for randomized clinical trials comparing intake of fenugreek extract with control group. Data on change in serum total testosterone were pooled using random‐effects models. A total of four trials were included. Fenugreek extract has a significant effect on total serum testosterone. Results from clinical trials suggest that fenugreek extract supplement has an effect on serum total testosterone levels in male. 
" In comparison with placebo group, the mean total testosterone levels in the subjects receiving fenugreek extract was higher (WMD = 0.85 95% CI [0.10, 1.60]; p = .026; Figure 2)."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339204558_Effect_of_fenugreek_extract_supplement_on_testosterone_levels_in_male_A_meta-analysis_of_clinical_trials
It might be not a good idea for NBE and AA users
______________________________________



Awesome! 

S2 


Fenugreek definitely makes breasts bigger...even if temporarily. 

The fenugreek used in studies that show increased testosterone are extracts geared for that purpose (check out Testofen for the prime example of this, and the heavily marketing hyped Nugenix which leverages Testofen - which honestly, one could just buy Testofen under the Swanson label and save a lot of money).   

Guys that take Testofen and the like for the purported free testosterone gains are some places (forums like this, but the subject is weight lifting and testosterone increase) advised to also take something like Stinging Nettle extract to avoid man boobs (although I'm sure there are plenty that are unaware that this is even a potential side effect).

Taking Testofen vs regular fenugreek is not quite the same experience.

I use fenugreek liquid extracts topically from time to time and get none of the testosterone signs that I did using Testofen in the past.

Another potent leveraging of fenugreek (for breast enlargement) is said to be eating just sprouted fenugreek seeds (which is easy enough to do - I'
ve grown them in my kitchen). I just found liquid fenugreek extracts easiest to use.
_____________________________________


I just ordered more FG Tea. I Luv the stuff. 

[*]
I just placed an order for Fenugreek work 50% Saponins. I’ve been out of it for a while, but I’m looking to increase my prolactin levels. Saponins are good stuff, outlined in the Project-X thread by Lotus.

[*][*]

This is the closest to a "Fenugreek Use" thread that I can find so I will post my experience with FG here.
Hopefully I will get some responses since most people use PM.
I stopped the BO I was using a couple of weeks ago due to blood pressure issues (maybe?). I continued using FG oil on my chest for a few weeks. Part of the time I used the oil undiluted and part of the time I used it diluted (1:3 with olive oil) (Artizen Fenugreek Essential Oil (100% Pure & Natural - Undiluted) Therapeutic Grade; Amazon).
I noticed a couple of days ago that some parts of my skin felt different; smooth and silky. I also noticed that I may have had some penis shrinkage (diameter mostly). This was somewhat unexpected. I am also having some real difficultly reaching ejaculation. On the positive side, I have developed a lot of nipple sensitivity, which is great. However, I have no increased breast development or changes in waist or hips. I have been taking measurements and pictures and nothing is changing. Also, no feelings or thinking changes that I can pinpoint.
Anyway, the soft skin is nice.
Anyone else have FG experiences?
TG

[*][*]I don't have the scientific knowledge or gift to understand all of the above, but I can tell you my experience with fenugreek.

It was suggested to me by a guy on another site who has huge breasts and said that he did it with sole use of fenugreek over 10 years.

I used 2 610 mg capsules, 3 times a day for a little over  a year and a half.  With this I used a single dose of about 1100mg daily of saw palmetto, and 1 tablespoon of flax seed oil in a morning protein shake. 

In that time, my breasts became fuller, adding close to an inch to my bust.  There was no difference in the aerolae or nipples. I had no other side effects other than what might have been an increased libido.  

Currently I am back on 2 mg of estradiol a day along with the saw palmetto and "prostate health" capsules to help lower DHT.

I will probably go back on the fenugreek after 6 months on the estradiol.

Any suggestions for faster or better results? More growth of the aereolae?

Thanks! 
Joey


Seiya Wrote:  
Could you please apprise us about the dosage of fennel, spearmint, and flaxseeds consumed by you along with fenugreek seeds6g/60 kg/day)?

Also, please suggest how to cycle the intake of fenugreek seeds to achieve feminization-tyoe body fat.    


Thanks so much for sharing for this study! I've had accelerated breast growth with fenugreek (6g/60kg/day) so far in combination with fennel, spearmint and flaxseed (I'm doing an experiment with commonly found grocery store items) and was experimenting with smaller doses to find the minimum dosage and was wondering why my libido was flaring up so much. Now I see it's not a good idea to use such a low dose!


It's important to be aware when herbs can have biphasic or even triphasic effects, having completely different or opposite effects in small, medium and large doses or when mixed with other herbs. The endocrine system and our metabolism is quite complex!


A study done on male and female rabbits found that replacing 30% of their food intake with fenugreek lowered testosterone by 60% in the males at three months and increased progesterone by 110% in the females at 20 days in the experiment.[1] Another experiment on female rats given 900mg/kg/day exerted strong progestogenic activity on the vagina,[2] roughly a 9g/60kg/day human equivalent dose. Another study on male mice found fenugreek at 610 mg/kg/day increased estradiol levels by 40%, lowered testosterone by 20% and increased prolactin by 20%,[3] which is roughly a 3g/60kg/day human equivalent dose.


To me this seems to suggest fenugreek's effects are coming from stimulating hormone production somehow, which results in elevated levels of progesterone in higher doses that is converting testosterone into estradiol, since progesterone stimulates prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) production,[4] which stimulates aromatase.[5] This lead me to think it could be acting on 3β-HSD activity that converts pregnenolone to progesterone and androstenediol into testosterone, which I then found a study that showed fenugreek does exactly that to enhance hormone production by upregulating 3β-HSD activity and HMG-CoA reductase activity (that aids in the production of cholesterol, a precursor to pregnenolone), at least in male diabetic rats which almost returned to normal hormone levels with 50mg of hydroalcoholic extract/kg/day.[6] (Note: although fenugreek may upregulate HMG-CoA reductase activity, it actually lowers cholesterol,[9][10] possibly by metabolizing it into pregnenolone via upregulating P450scc but I haven't confirmed this yet. I'll research into this more sometime.)


Progesterone is important for areolae and breast growth, as it also indirectly stimulates epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) from PGE2 potently stimulating production of amphiregulin,[5] which stimulates EGFR and also activates COX-2 and produces even more PGE2 in a positive feedback loop.[5][7] People with breast hypertrophy often present with extremely large areolae from EGF stimuation. The vitamin D receptor inhibits this feedback loop,[8] but this pathway is not the only one involved in breast growth.


However, progesterone is also well-known to be an estrogen receptor alpha (ER-a) antagonist and it may inhibit full feminization of the rest of the body when there are elevated levels of testosterone. Anecdotally, from my own experience seeing people who take fenugreek without cycling in combination with pueraria mirifica, they develop large areolae and beautiful breasts but not as much feminization in their body fat as those not taking fenugreek, which perplexed me for sometime until I learned about progesterone's ER-a antagonism. Women only have elevated progesterone levels for two weeks of their cycle, so fenugreek should probably be cycled every two weeks and taken in a dosage of at least 3g/60kg/day to maximize breast growth and feminization. And when women get pregnant their progesterone and estradiol levels significantly rise for nine months to mature and complete the breasts, something also to keep in mind.


Also fenugreek might not be as effective on people who have diabetes or reduced gonad function from age, ill health or interactions with other herbs. They may need to take more with precaution of possible interactions and adverse effects such as hypoglycemia or hypocholesterolemia. Fenugreek has many protective effects and health benefits on the body but dosages should not exceed 21g/60kg/day in healthy adults.[9]


tl;dr if fenugreek is making you feel frisky, up your dose or discontinue, and remember to cycle on-off every two weeks!


References

3. [/url]Evaluation of the potential antifertility effect of fenugreek seeds in male and female rabbits.
   
   
   
4. [url=https://content.sciendo.com/downloadpdf/journals/cipms/32/3/article-p138.pdf]Fenugreek seeds estrogenic activity in ovariectomized female rats.
   
   
   
5. Reproductive, cytological and biochemical toxicity of fenugreek in male Swiss albino mice.
   
   
   
6. Effects of sex hormones on production of prostaglandin E2 by human peripheral monocytes.
   
   
   
7. The prostaglandin E2 receptor EP2 is required for cyclooxygenase 2–mediated mammary hyperplasia.
   
   
   
8. Potential protective effect on key steroidogenesis and metabolic enzymes and sperm abnormalities by fenugreek steroids in testis and epididymis of surviving diabetic rats.
   
   
   
9. Cyclooxygenase-2 transactivates the epidermal growth factor receptor through specific E-prostanoid receptors and Tumor Necrosis Factor-α converting enzyme.
   
   
   
10. Vitamin D and the mammary gland: a review on its role in normal development and breast cancer.
    
    
    
11. Fenugreek Uses, Benefits & Dosage.
    
    
    
12. Steroid saponins from fenugreek seeds: Extraction, purification, and pharmacological investigation on feeding behavior and plasma cholesterol.
    

[*][*]
[*]There are much useful information on this website.
I  share a new research about fenugreek:
Effect of fenugreek extract supplement on testosterone levels in male: A meta‐analysis of clinical trials


Different types of glycosides extract of fenugreek have shown androgenic and anabolic effect in male. The aim of the study was to evaluate the effect of fenugreek extract on total testosterone levels in male. Medline via PubMed, Scopus databases, Cochrane Library, Web of Science, and Google Scholar were searched up to November 2018 for randomized clinical trials comparing intake of fenugreek extract with control group. Data on change in serum total testosterone were pooled using random‐effects models. A total of four trials were included. Fenugreek extract has a significant effect on total serum testosterone. Results from clinical trials suggest that fenugreek extract supplement has an effect on serum total testosterone levels in male. 
" In comparison with placebo group, the mean total testosterone levels in the subjects receiving fenugreek extract was higher (WMD = 0.85 95% CI [0.10, 1.60]; p = .026; Figure 2)."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339204558_Effect_of_fenugreek_extract_supplement_on_testosterone_levels_in_male_A_meta-analysis_of_clinical_trials
It might be not a good idea for NBE and AA users
______________________________________



Awesome! 

S2 


Fenugreek definitely makes breasts bigger...even if temporarily. 

The fenugreek used in studies that show increased testosterone are extracts geared for that purpose (check out Testofen for the prime example of this, and the heavily marketing hyped Nugenix which leverages Testofen - which honestly, one could just buy Testofen under the Swanson label and save a lot of money).   

Guys that take Testofen and the like for the purported free testosterone gains are some places (forums like this, but the subject is weight lifting and testosterone increase) advised to also take something like Stinging Nettle extract to avoid man boobs (although I'm sure there are plenty that are unaware that this is even a potential side effect).

Taking Testofen vs regular fenugreek is not quite the same experience.

I use fenugreek liquid extracts topically from time to time and get none of the testosterone signs that I did using Testofen in the past.

Another potent leveraging of fenugreek (for breast enlargement) is said to be eating just sprouted fenugreek seeds (which is easy enough to do - I'
ve grown them in my kitchen). I just found liquid fenugreek extracts easiest to use.
_____________________________________


I just ordered more FG Tea. I Luv the stuff. 

[*][*][*]
I just placed an order for Fenugreek work 50% Saponins. I’ve been out of it for a while, but I’m looking to increase my prolactin levels. Saponins are good stuff, outlined in the Project-X thread by Lotus.

[*][*][*]
[*]

This is the closest to a "Fenugreek Use" thread that I can find so I will post my experience with FG here.
Hopefully I will get some responses since most people use PM.
I stopped the BO I was using a couple of weeks ago due to blood pressure issues (maybe?). I continued using FG oil on my chest for a few weeks. Part of the time I used the oil undiluted and part of the time I used it diluted (1:3 with olive oil) (Artizen Fenugreek Essential Oil (100% Pure & Natural - Undiluted) Therapeutic Grade; Amazon).
I noticed a couple of days ago that some parts of my skin felt different; smooth and silky. I also noticed that I may have had some penis shrinkage (diameter mostly). This was somewhat unexpected. I am also having some real difficultly reaching ejaculation. On the positive side, I have developed a lot of nipple sensitivity, which is great. However, I have no increased breast development or changes in waist or hips. I have been taking measurements and pictures and nothing is changing. Also, no feelings or thinking changes that I can pinpoint.
Anyway, the soft skin is nice.
Anyone else have FG experiences?
TG

[*][*][*][*]


I’ve taken FG before, but Lotus doesn’t recommend it when taking PM

[VergeOfDiscovery]

Thanks for the info about PM and FG.  I am not on PM.

There is a chance that I am experiencing some calf cramping on FG.  Maybe my dose is too high.  I will try to change things around and see if that is a side effect of FG oil.  Everyone responds differently to drugs.
For those on blood thinners like Warfarin, FG has vit K in it and that will effect your INR numbers.

I don't have the scientific knowledge or gift to understand all of the above, but I can tell you my experience with fenugreek.

It was suggested to me by a guy on another site who has huge breasts and said that he did it with sole use of fenugreek over 10 years.

I used 2 610 mg capsules, 3 times a day for a little over  a year and a half.  With this I used a single dose of about 1100mg daily of saw palmetto, and 1 tablespoon of flax seed oil in a morning protein shake. 

In that time, my breasts became fuller, adding close to an inch to my bust.  There was no difference in the aerolae or nipples. I had no other side effects other than what might have been an increased libido.  

Currently I am back on 2 mg of estradiol a day along with the saw palmetto and "prostate health" capsules to help lower DHT.

I will probably go back on the fenugreek after 6 months on the estradiol.

Any suggestions for faster or better results? More growth of the aereolae?

Thanks! 
Joey


Seiya Wrote:  [/url]
Could you please apprise us about the dosage of fennel, spearmint, and flaxseeds consumed by you along with fenugreek seeds6g/60 kg/day)?

Also, please suggest how to cycle the intake of fenugreek seeds to achieve feminization-tyoe body fat.    


Thanks so much for sharing for this study! I've had accelerated breast growth with fenugreek (6g/60kg/day) so far in combination with fennel, spearmint and flaxseed (I'm doing an experiment with commonly found grocery store items) and was experimenting with smaller doses to find the minimum dosage and was wondering why my libido was flaring up so much. Now I see it's not a good idea to use such a low dose!


It's important to be aware when herbs can have biphasic or even triphasic effects, having completely different or opposite effects in small, medium and large doses or when mixed with other herbs. The endocrine system and our metabolism is quite complex!


A study done on male and female rabbits found that replacing 30% of their food intake with fenugreek lowered testosterone by 60% in the males at three months and increased progesterone by 110% in the females at 20 days in the experiment.[1] Another experiment on female rats given 900mg/kg/day exerted strong progestogenic activity on the vagina,[2] roughly a 9g/60kg/day human equivalent dose. Another study on male mice found fenugreek at 610 mg/kg/day increased estradiol levels by 40%, lowered testosterone by 20% and increased prolactin by 20%,[3] which is roughly a 3g/60kg/day human equivalent dose.


To me this seems to suggest fenugreek's effects are coming from stimulating hormone production somehow, which results in elevated levels of progesterone in higher doses that is converting testosterone into estradiol, since progesterone stimulates prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) production,[4] which stimulates aromatase.[5] This lead me to think it could be acting on 3β-HSD activity that converts pregnenolone to progesterone and androstenediol into testosterone, which I then found a study that showed fenugreek does exactly that to enhance hormone production by upregulating 3β-HSD activity and HMG-CoA reductase activity (that aids in the production of cholesterol, a precursor to pregnenolone), at least in male diabetic rats which almost returned to normal hormone levels with 50mg of hydroalcoholic extract/kg/day.[6] (Note: although fenugreek may upregulate HMG-CoA reductase activity, it actually lowers cholesterol,[9][10] possibly by metabolizing it into pregnenolone via upregulating P450scc but I haven't confirmed this yet. I'll research into this more sometime.)


Progesterone is important for areolae and breast growth, as it also indirectly stimulates epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) from PGE2 potently stimulating production of amphiregulin,[5] which stimulates EGFR and also activates COX-2 and produces even more PGE2 in a positive feedback loop.[5][7] People with breast hypertrophy often present with extremely large areolae from EGF stimuation. The vitamin D receptor inhibits this feedback loop,[8] but this pathway is not the only one involved in breast growth.


However, progesterone is also well-known to be an estrogen receptor alpha (ER-a) antagonist and it may inhibit full feminization of the rest of the body when there are elevated levels of testosterone. Anecdotally, from my own experience seeing people who take fenugreek without cycling in combination with pueraria mirifica, they develop large areolae and beautiful breasts but not as much feminization in their body fat as those not taking fenugreek, which perplexed me for sometime until I learned about progesterone's ER-a antagonism. Women only have elevated progesterone levels for two weeks of their cycle, so fenugreek should probably be cycled every two weeks and taken in a dosage of at least 3g/60kg/day to maximize breast growth and feminization. And when women get pregnant their progesterone and estradiol levels significantly rise for nine months to mature and complete the breasts, something also to keep in mind.


Also fenugreek might not be as effective on people who have diabetes or reduced gonad function from age, ill health or interactions with other herbs. They may need to take more with precaution of possible interactions and adverse effects such as hypoglycemia or hypocholesterolemia. Fenugreek has many protective effects and health benefits on the body but dosages should not exceed 21g/60kg/day in healthy adults.[9]


tl;dr if fenugreek is making you feel frisky, up your dose or discontinue, and remember to cycle on-off every two weeks!


References

1. [/url]Evaluation of the potential antifertility effect of fenugreek seeds in male and female rabbits.
   
   
   
2. Fenugreek seeds estrogenic activity in ovariectomized female rats.
   
   
   
3. Reproductive, cytological and biochemical toxicity of fenugreek in male Swiss albino mice.
   
   
   
4. Effects of sex hormones on production of prostaglandin E2 by human peripheral monocytes.
   
   
   
5. The prostaglandin E2 receptor EP2 is required for cyclooxygenase 2–mediated mammary hyperplasia.
   
   
   
6. Potential protective effect on key steroidogenesis and metabolic enzymes and sperm abnormalities by fenugreek steroids in testis and epididymis of surviving diabetic rats.
   
   
   
7. Cyclooxygenase-2 transactivates the epidermal growth factor receptor through specific E-prostanoid receptors and Tumor Necrosis Factor-α converting enzyme.
   
   
   
8. Vitamin D and the mammary gland: a review on its role in normal development and breast cancer.
   
   
   
9. Fenugreek Uses, Benefits & Dosage.
   
   
   
10. Steroid saponins from fenugreek seeds: Extraction, purification, and pharmacological investigation on feeding behavior and plasma cholesterol.
    

[*]There are much useful information on this website.
I  share a new research about fenugreek:
Effect of fenugreek extract supplement on testosterone levels in male: A meta‐analysis of clinical trials


Different types of glycosides extract of fenugreek have shown androgenic and anabolic effect in male. The aim of the study was to evaluate the effect of fenugreek extract on total testosterone levels in male. Medline via PubMed, Scopus databases, Cochrane Library, Web of Science, and Google Scholar were searched up to November 2018 for randomized clinical trials comparing intake of fenugreek extract with control group. Data on change in serum total testosterone were pooled using random‐effects models. A total of four trials were included. Fenugreek extract has a significant effect on total serum testosterone. Results from clinical trials suggest that fenugreek extract supplement has an effect on serum total testosterone levels in male. 
" In comparison with placebo group, the mean total testosterone levels in the subjects receiving fenugreek extract was higher (WMD = 0.85 95% CI [0.10, 1.60]; p = .026; Figure 2)."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339204558_Effect_of_fenugreek_extract_supplement_on_testosterone_levels_in_male_A_meta-analysis_of_clinical_trials
It might be not a good idea for NBE and AA users
______________________________________



Awesome! 

S2 


Fenugreek definitely makes breasts bigger...even if temporarily. 

The fenugreek used in studies that show increased testosterone are extracts geared for that purpose (check out Testofen for the prime example of this, and the heavily marketing hyped Nugenix which leverages Testofen - which honestly, one could just buy Testofen under the Swanson label and save a lot of money).   

Guys that take Testofen and the like for the purported free testosterone gains are some places (forums like this, but the subject is weight lifting and testosterone increase) advised to also take something like Stinging Nettle extract to avoid man boobs (although I'm sure there are plenty that are unaware that this is even a potential side effect).

Taking Testofen vs regular fenugreek is not quite the same experience.

I use fenugreek liquid extracts topically from time to time and get none of the testosterone signs that I did using Testofen in the past.

Another potent leveraging of fenugreek (for breast enlargement) is said to be eating just sprouted fenugreek seeds (which is easy enough to do - I'
ve grown them in my kitchen). I just found liquid fenugreek extracts easiest to use.
_____________________________________


I just ordered more FG Tea. I Luv the stuff. 

[*]
I just placed an order for Fenugreek work 50% Saponins. I’ve been out of it for a while, but I’m looking to increase my prolactin levels. Saponins are good stuff, outlined in the Project-X thread by Lotus.

[*]
[*]

This is the closest to a "Fenugreek Use" thread that I can find so I will post my experience with FG here.
Hopefully I will get some responses since most people use PM.
I stopped the BO I was using a couple of weeks ago due to blood pressure issues (maybe?). I continued using FG oil on my chest for a few weeks. Part of the time I used the oil undiluted and part of the time I used it diluted (1:3 with olive oil) (Artizen Fenugreek Essential Oil (100% Pure & Natural - Undiluted) Therapeutic Grade; Amazon).
I noticed a couple of days ago that some parts of my skin felt different; smooth and silky. I also noticed that I may have had some penis shrinkage (diameter mostly). This was somewhat unexpected. I am also having some real difficultly reaching ejaculation. On the positive side, I have developed a lot of nipple sensitivity, which is great. However, I have no increased breast development or changes in waist or hips. I have been taking measurements and pictures and nothing is changing. Also, no feelings or thinking changes that I can pinpoint.
Anyway, the soft skin is nice.
Anyone else have FG experiences?
TG

[*][*]

[*]I don't have the scientific knowledge or gift to understand all of the above, but I can tell you my experience with fenugreek.

It was suggested to me by a guy on another site who has huge breasts and said that he did it with sole use of fenugreek over 10 years.

I used 2 610 mg capsules, 3 times a day for a little over  a year and a half.  With this I used a single dose of about 1100mg daily of saw palmetto, and 1 tablespoon of flax seed oil in a morning protein shake. 

In that time, my breasts became fuller, adding close to an inch to my bust.  There was no difference in the aerolae or nipples. I had no other side effects other than what might have been an increased libido.  

Currently I am back on 2 mg of estradiol a day along with the saw palmetto and "prostate health" capsules to help lower DHT.

I will probably go back on the fenugreek after 6 months on the estradiol.

Any suggestions for faster or better results? More growth of the aereolae?

Thanks! 
Joey


Seiya Wrote:  
Could you please apprise us about the dosage of fennel, spearmint, and flaxseeds consumed by you along with fenugreek seeds6g/60 kg/day)?

Also, please suggest how to cycle the intake of fenugreek seeds to achieve feminization-tyoe body fat.    


Thanks so much for sharing for this study! I've had accelerated breast growth with fenugreek (6g/60kg/day) so far in combination with fennel, spearmint and flaxseed (I'm doing an experiment with commonly found grocery store items) and was experimenting with smaller doses to find the minimum dosage and was wondering why my libido was flaring up so much. Now I see it's not a good idea to use such a low dose!


It's important to be aware when herbs can have biphasic or even triphasic effects, having completely different or opposite effects in small, medium and large doses or when mixed with other herbs. The endocrine system and our metabolism is quite complex!


A study done on male and female rabbits found that replacing 30% of their food intake with fenugreek lowered testosterone by 60% in the males at three months and increased progesterone by 110% in the females at 20 days in the experiment.[1] Another experiment on female rats given 900mg/kg/day exerted strong progestogenic activity on the vagina,[2] roughly a 9g/60kg/day human equivalent dose. Another study on male mice found fenugreek at 610 mg/kg/day increased estradiol levels by 40%, lowered testosterone by 20% and increased prolactin by 20%,[3] which is roughly a 3g/60kg/day human equivalent dose.


To me this seems to suggest fenugreek's effects are coming from stimulating hormone production somehow, which results in elevated levels of progesterone in higher doses that is converting testosterone into estradiol, since progesterone stimulates prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) production,[4] which stimulates aromatase.[5] This lead me to think it could be acting on 3β-HSD activity that converts pregnenolone to progesterone and androstenediol into testosterone, which I then found a study that showed fenugreek does exactly that to enhance hormone production by upregulating 3β-HSD activity and HMG-CoA reductase activity (that aids in the production of cholesterol, a precursor to pregnenolone), at least in male diabetic rats which almost returned to normal hormone levels with 50mg of hydroalcoholic extract/kg/day.[6] (Note: although fenugreek may upregulate HMG-CoA reductase activity, it actually lowers cholesterol,[9][10] possibly by metabolizing it into pregnenolone via upregulating P450scc but I haven't confirmed this yet. I'll research into this more sometime.)


Progesterone is important for areolae and breast growth, as it also indirectly stimulates epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) from PGE2 potently stimulating production of amphiregulin,[5] which stimulates EGFR and also activates COX-2 and produces even more PGE2 in a positive feedback loop.[5][7] People with breast hypertrophy often present with extremely large areolae from EGF stimuation. The vitamin D receptor inhibits this feedback loop,[8] but this pathway is not the only one involved in breast growth.


However, progesterone is also well-known to be an estrogen receptor alpha (ER-a) antagonist and it may inhibit full feminization of the rest of the body when there are elevated levels of testosterone. Anecdotally, from my own experience seeing people who take fenugreek without cycling in combination with pueraria mirifica, they develop large areolae and beautiful breasts but not as much feminization in their body fat as those not taking fenugreek, which perplexed me for sometime until I learned about progesterone's ER-a antagonism. Women only have elevated progesterone levels for two weeks of their cycle, so fenugreek should probably be cycled every two weeks and taken in a dosage of at least 3g/60kg/day to maximize breast growth and feminization. And when women get pregnant their progesterone and estradiol levels significantly rise for nine months to mature and complete the breasts, something also to keep in mind.


Also fenugreek might not be as effective on people who have diabetes or reduced gonad function from age, ill health or interactions with other herbs. They may need to take more with precaution of possible interactions and adverse effects such as hypoglycemia or hypocholesterolemia. Fenugreek has many protective effects and health benefits on the body but dosages should not exceed 21g/60kg/day in healthy adults.[9]


tl;dr if fenugreek is making you feel frisky, up your dose or discontinue, and remember to cycle on-off every two weeks!


References

4. [/url]Evaluation of the potential antifertility effect of fenugreek seeds in male and female rabbits.
   
   
   
5. [url=https://content.sciendo.com/downloadpdf/journals/cipms/32/3/article-p138.pdf]Fenugreek seeds estrogenic activity in ovariectomized female rats.
   
   
   
6. Reproductive, cytological and biochemical toxicity of fenugreek in male Swiss albino mice.
   
   
   
7. Effects of sex hormones on production of prostaglandin E2 by human peripheral monocytes.
   
   
   
8. The prostaglandin E2 receptor EP2 is required for cyclooxygenase 2–mediated mammary hyperplasia.
   
   
   
9. Potential protective effect on key steroidogenesis and metabolic enzymes and sperm abnormalities by fenugreek steroids in testis and epididymis of surviving diabetic rats.
   
   
   
10. Cyclooxygenase-2 transactivates the epidermal growth factor receptor through specific E-prostanoid receptors and Tumor Necrosis Factor-α converting enzyme.
    
    
    
11. Vitamin D and the mammary gland: a review on its role in normal development and breast cancer.
    
    
    
12. Fenugreek Uses, Benefits & Dosage.
    
    
    
13. Steroid saponins from fenugreek seeds: Extraction, purification, and pharmacological investigation on feeding behavior and plasma cholesterol.
    

[*][*]

[*]There are much useful information on this website.
I  share a new research about fenugreek:
Effect of fenugreek extract supplement on testosterone levels in male: A meta‐analysis of clinical trials


Different types of glycosides extract of fenugreek have shown androgenic and anabolic effect in male. The aim of the study was to evaluate the effect of fenugreek extract on total testosterone levels in male. Medline via PubMed, Scopus databases, Cochrane Library, Web of Science, and Google Scholar were searched up to November 2018 for randomized clinical trials comparing intake of fenugreek extract with control group. Data on change in serum total testosterone were pooled using random‐effects models. A total of four trials were included. Fenugreek extract has a significant effect on total serum testosterone. Results from clinical trials suggest that fenugreek extract supplement has an effect on serum total testosterone levels in male. 
" In comparison with placebo group, the mean total testosterone levels in the subjects receiving fenugreek extract was higher (WMD = 0.85 95% CI [0.10, 1.60]; p = .026; Figure 2)."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339204558_Effect_of_fenugreek_extract_supplement_on_testosterone_levels_in_male_A_meta-analysis_of_clinical_trials
It might be not a good idea for NBE and AA users
______________________________________



Awesome! 

S2 


Fenugreek definitely makes breasts bigger...even if temporarily. 

The fenugreek used in studies that show increased testosterone are extracts geared for that purpose (check out Testofen for the prime example of this, and the heavily marketing hyped Nugenix which leverages Testofen - which honestly, one could just buy Testofen under the Swanson label and save a lot of money).   

Guys that take Testofen and the like for the purported free testosterone gains are some places (forums like this, but the subject is weight lifting and testosterone increase) advised to also take something like Stinging Nettle extract to avoid man boobs (although I'm sure there are plenty that are unaware that this is even a potential side effect).

Taking Testofen vs regular fenugreek is not quite the same experience.

I use fenugreek liquid extracts topically from time to time and get none of the testosterone signs that I did using Testofen in the past.

Another potent leveraging of fenugreek (for breast enlargement) is said to be eating just sprouted fenugreek seeds (which is easy enough to do - I'
ve grown them in my kitchen). I just found liquid fenugreek extracts easiest to use.
_____________________________________


I just ordered more FG Tea. I Luv the stuff. 

[*][*]

[*]
I just placed an order for Fenugreek work 50% Saponins. I’ve been out of it for a while, but I’m looking to increase my prolactin levels. Saponins are good stuff, outlined in the Project-X thread by Lotus.

[*][*][*]



[*]

This is the closest to a "Fenugreek Use" thread that I can find so I will post my experience with FG here.
Hopefully I will get some responses since most people use PM.
I stopped the BO I was using a couple of weeks ago due to blood pressure issues (maybe?). I continued using FG oil on my chest for a few weeks. Part of the time I used the oil undiluted and part of the time I used it diluted (1:3 with olive oil) (Artizen Fenugreek Essential Oil (100% Pure & Natural - Undiluted) Therapeutic Grade; Amazon).
I noticed a couple of days ago that some parts of my skin felt different; smooth and silky. I also noticed that I may have had some penis shrinkage (diameter mostly). This was somewhat unexpected. I am also having some real difficultly reaching ejaculation. On the positive side, I have developed a lot of nipple sensitivity, which is great. However, I have no increased breast development or changes in waist or hips. I have been taking measurements and pictures and nothing is changing. Also, no feelings or thinking changes that I can pinpoint.
Anyway, the soft skin is nice.
Anyone else have FG experiences?
TG

[*][*][*]


[*]


I’ve taken FG before, but Lotus doesn’t recommend it when taking PM

[*][*][*]


[*]

[*][*][*][*]

Re: I’ve taken FG before, but Lotus doesn’t recommend it when taking PM

It can be taxing on the system to take too much of anything all at once. That being said, fenugreek topically can be a nice boon (sans liver).

[thegirl1951]

Its been a few days since last post and my experience may be useful for others (?).  My chest area is feeling some tightness that was not there before.  Interesting feeling; similar to when I was taking a few pill of BO. 

 No increase in chest/body dimensions. 

With my age (old guy), I have had ED for years.  Last night was good; got a nice result from the little blue pill and popped pretty quickly.  So, I guess my functions have not degraded from the FG oil.

One of my major objectives taking FG is nipple orgasm.  From what I have read on this and other resources, the feeling from this is pretty darn good. LOL

[Romanyapi]

I recently started taking some regular Fenugreek capsules, 500mg from Now Foods.  I take just 1 or 2 a day.

So far i do get the maple smell, which i think is fine.

I am looking to just obtain some nipple and breast sensitivity and hopefully enhance my libido.  I want to avoid any shrinkage!

I also take Tribulus daily for Testosterone enhancement, most days i also take Horny Goat Weed, Lemon Balm.

Anyone any experience with this combination's effects?

[2fakenames]

I recently started taking some regular Fenugreek capsules, 500mg from Now Foods.  I take just 1 or 2 a day.

So far i do get the maple smell, which i think is fine.

I am looking to just obtain some nipple and breast sensitivity and hopefully enhance my libido.  I want to avoid any shrinkage!

I also take Tribulus daily for Testosterone enhancement, most days i also take Horny Goat Weed, Lemon Balm.

Anyone any experience with this combination's effects?

I don't have experience with your specific combo, but I've used Fenugreek off an on and I need to take 2-3g to get increased nipple sensitivity and it typically only lasts for the first 2 weeks. I've never gone to higher doses and usually stop after that, give it a month or so and when I go back to it, the sensitivity comes back extremely quick, like 48 hours or so. I get swelling and a very heavy feeling chest while on it that is a lot of fun for a minor bounce. All of my results have been temporary, except for a small amount of nipple growth. My libido is up during that time, but I think that is all due to the excitement.