Thank you Lotus on the 8pn info! I have been taking 8pn for close to 2 years now. I love it as a supplement.

Hi Lotus, thanks so much for the quick reply and additional info, especially for hops and skin application/permeation. I’m downshifting my program a bit, reducing my PM to 100mg 3x/day and 10mg hops 2x/day, while continuing RR 3x and WP 2x, along with 1-2 x spearmint tea. I’m curious to see if there is any impact on me by lowering T and enhancing aromatase with a lower herbal E dosage. 

My plan is to continue this level for 4-6 weeks, evaluate, and either continue with a small ramp of PM, or transition over to the E and PG creams.

So I don’t clutter this thread needlessly, I’ll post any results on my program page, but may well hit you up if I have any technical questions.

Cheers and GRATITUDE,
Lisa

Thank you Lotus on the 8pn info! I have been taking 8pn for close to 2 years now. I love it as a supplement.

Hi Kay, I'm glad I could help. Out of curiosity how much 8-pin do you regularly take?.

So I don’t clutter this thread needlessly, I’ll post any results on my program page, but may well hit you up if I have any technical questions.

Cheers and GRATITUDE,
Lisa

Hi Lisa, fire away babe, hopefully I'll have some answers to any question you may have. No worries about needless clutter in this thread, I'm taking steps to declutter things. I've edited 100 pages of over use of quotations. Everybody can help the forum be clutter free as explained by Eve (forum admin) here though. 
https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=30744&pid=219454#pid219454

Project X thread is by far the worst victim of this, with giant dissertations being displayed in triplicate.

Good point Aria, and it's unfortunate entire (ad nauseum) threads are quoted in the X☆thread. I always try to quote specific points in the X☆thread and throughout the BN universe. I learned the benefit of paragraph quoting from seeing other senior members' posts. I figured other members would catch on like I did...hopefully this thread can change this, thanks EVE.

L.

Thank you Lotus on the 8pn info! I have been taking 8pn for close to 2 years now. I love it as a supplement.

Hi Kay, I'm glad I could help. Out of curiosity how much 8-pin do you regularly take?.

Hi Lotus,

I take 2 8pn per day. One in morning and one before bedtime. I take the Swanson Estro8pn which is 10mg of hops extract. I think the 8pn content of that is a small percent. Their old bottle labels listed that percent and now the new ones don't. I also take Swanson XanthoForce at lunchtime which is xanthohumol  liated as 50mg of hops extract. Xanthohumol claims no estrogenic activity, but I think there can be some conversion in the digestive tract to 8pn. I take xanthohumol for its anti-cancer activity.

I am also take matcha, reishi, fish oil, msm, calcium, vit D and melatonin at bedtime. I read that melatonin can increase prolactin. I don't have that link handy but could find it anyone is interested.

My breast growth has been slow and that is perfectly fine with me.

Hi Lotus,
I vaguely remember in one of your posts on this thread you teased with Chondroitin! I’m taking a joint supplement, which, among other ingredients contains Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulfate A and C, Flaxseed Oil, and Quercetin, all which I’ve seen reference to. Needless to say the supplement is pretty heavy duty (for runners). Each daily packet has 8 tabs!

I’ve googled the site and thread for Chondroitin, but crickets, so wanted to check to see if you could expand on any info Chondroitin for NBE/feminization. Thanks!

Cheers,
Lisa

Hi Lotus,

I take 2 8pn per day. One in morning and one before bedtime. I take the Swanson Estro8pn which is 10mg of hops extract. I think the 8pn content of that is a small percent. Their old bottle labels listed that percent and now the new ones don't. I also take Swanson XanthoForce at lunchtime which is xanthohumol  liated as 50mg of hops extract. Xanthohumol claims no estrogenic activity, but I think there can be some conversion in the digestive tract to 8pn. I take xanthohumol for its anti-cancer activity.

I am also take matcha, reishi, fish oil, msm, calcium, vit D and melatonin at bedtime. I read that melatonin can increase prolactin. I don't have that link handy but could find it anyone is interested.

My breast growth has been slow and that is perfectly fine with me.

Hi Kay, thank you for the information. Good to see you have matcha, reishi, fish oil, msm, calcium and vit D in your program. I'm attach information (apologies for the long post) on melatonin and other scientific research on 8-pin. From the studies linked below is this quote of isoxanthohumol being pro-estrogen:

Isoxanthohumol is considered a pro-estrogen due to its ability to be converted to 8-PN by intestinal bacteria in vivo (Possemiers et al., 2005).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331647380_Positive_allosteric_modulation_of_native_and_recombinant_GABAA_receptors_by_hops_prenylflavonoids

8-Prenylnaringenin from hop (Humulus lupulus L.) – a panacea for menopause?

Estrogenic activities of hops are due to one of the most potent phytoestrogen known to date: 8-prenylnaringenin (161) Keiler et al. 2013). Its estrogenic potential was confirmed by several in vitro and in vivo studies (Milligan et al. 1999;Zierau et al. 2002;Possemiers et al. 2005;Overk et al. 2008). This prenylated flavanone shows a strong binding affinity for estrogen receptors, in particular ERa, with an EC 50 equal to 1.5 lg/L or 4.4 nM.

Isoxanthohumol is considered a pro-estrogen due to its ability to be converted to 8-PN by intestinal bacteria in vivo (Possemiers et al., 2005).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324966768_8-Prenylnaringenin_from_hop_Humulus_lupulus_L_-_a_panacea_for_menopause

Positive allosteric modulation of native and recombinant GABAA receptors by hops prenylflavonoids


* In addition to its wide range of bioactivity, it exhibits neuroactive properties as a sedative and sleeping aid

*hops flavonoids in modulating the GABAergic activity and assessed their selectivity to GABAA receptors subtypes.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331647380_Positive_allosteric_modulation_of_native_and_recombinant_GABAA_receptors_by_hops_prenylflavonoids

Effects of 8-prenylnaringenin on the hypothalamo-pituitary-uterine axis in rats after 3-month treatment

Both doses of E2 and the high dose of 8PN suppressed serum LH and FSH, and stimulated serum prolactin levels, uterine weight, and progesterone receptor, insulin-like growth factor I and complement protein C3 mRNA transcripts. 

*anterior pituitary were reduced under both E2 doses and the high 8PN dose. The mRNA concentrations of the LHalpha and -beta subunits in the pituitary were suppressed by E2 and 8PN. 

In regard to melatonin, you wrote: “melatonin it puts you in REM sleep throughout the course of the night. And in so doing your T will rise during the REM stage. In this example it's called nocturnal erections, another example is seen in morning wood.”  But doesn’t this, then, contradict not wanting our T-levels to rise?  I get that it inhibits somatostatin but at the expense of raising T?  If I took a T-blocker with it would that help offset the rise in T from melatonin?  Plus, you said that taking MSM at night is more beneficial.  Why is that?  Is it to open the pathways by morning when I start taking E? 

Some literature mentions a slight T increase, though in younger men. In other research melatonin has no impact on T. 

You could alternately supplement with an anti-androgen at night, or even a pro-aromatase. 

MSM at night helps with GH and prolactin secretion via stat5 pathway, which involves the growth of alveolar glands in breast tissue. Ultimately, melatonin stimulates prolactin too. The study below is a rat study example on how to inhibit T.


Melatonin inhibits testosterone secretion by acting at the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal axis in the rat.

Our results suggest that melatonin inhibits testosterone secretion by acting at hypothalamo-pituitary axis. There is a functional relationship and feedback regulation between the pineal gland and the testes.
https://europepmc.org/article/med/11455362
––———————

Lotus, I’m curious about your research of Melatonin in relation to Somatostatin. You mention that 3mg is enough to stop Somatostatin. I apologize if you’ve already covered this, but can I take a higher dose of Melatonin and still achieve the same results? Ever since I switched to a lower dose, I’m having the hardest time falling asleep at night. Maybe I just have too much on my mind, but it’s getting old. Thx

Hi stevenator,

Melatonin usage is different for all people, some are more/or less sensitive to it, and that's due part to certain genes and how you metabolize medications, in other words, find out what dosage works for you.
I've seen research on alternative treatments for insomnia, this linked study below is one example of how certain vitamins can be used w/melatonin to treat insomnia.

Magnesium 
Vitamin B complex (B6 and B12 alternately if you can't do B complex)
Melatonin 
Vitamin D (not mentioned, I'm adding it though)

I believe insomnia is tied to gut health, or at least improving it. I'm following something called Deuterium, and how depleting said deuterium (in your bodies) can help improve sleep, metabolic function, help fight cancer, improve gut health and other ailments...literally fascinating stuff. Hopefully I'll have something to share on it real soon.

The Effects of Magnesium – Melatonin - Vit B Complex Supplementation in Treatment of Insomnia

study group was treated with Magnesium-melatonin-vitamin B complex (one dose contains 175 mg liposomal magnesium oxide, 10 mg Vit B6, 16 μg vit B12, melatonin 1 mg, Extrafolate-S 600 μg) once a day 1 hour before sleep, during the 3 months. 

Our findings indicate that 3 months of the Magnesium- melatonin-vitamin B complex supplementation has a beneficial effect in the treatment of insomnia regardless of cause.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6910806/

Don't use magnesium oxide (unless you're constipated). Opt for magnesium glycinate or magnesium L-Threonate...it's more expensive (yes), but better absorption, check out the research on both and judge for yourself.

Hey Lotus,

My hormone levels are Testosterone 26 ng/ dL, and Estrogen 150 pg/dL. These are fairly acceptable levels on their own. I got this far on 4 mg oral estradiol and pretty much nothing else. Assuming these hormone levels stay constant if i do nothing, what should i next add to my regimen (of essentially just E right now) to aid breast growth?

-Aria

P.S. do you recommend a source for ginseng and/or cayenne for that tincture you thought of?

Hi Lotus,
I vaguely remember in one of your posts on this thread you teased with Chondroitin! taking a joint supplement, which, among other ingredients contains Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulfate A and C, Flaxseed Oil, and Quercetin, all which I’ve seen reference to. Needless to say the supplement is pretty heavy duty (for runners). Each daily packet has 8 tabs!

I’ve googled the site and thread for Chondroitin, but crickets, so wanted to check to see if you could expand on any info Chondroitin for NBE/feminization. Thanks!

Hi Lisa, I can't find anything that suggests Chondroitin can feminize. The following is all I have on Chondroitin. MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) on the other hand is a better fit for NBE, as such there's a ton of articles about MSM in this thread. Though I would enter Methylsulfonylmethane in the search terms as it doesn't recognize 3 letter searches. Hope this helps.

Larana, this is what I meant:, also I'm using this as an example:

Ageless Foundation Laboratories, UltraFlex Gold, Advanced Triple Action, 90 Tablets
http://www.iherb.com/Ageless-Foundation-Laboratories-UltraFlex-Gold-Advanced-Triple-Action-90-Tablets/44841

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 3 Tablets
Servings per Container: 3 Amount Per Serving %DV
Vitamin D 1000 IU 250%
Glucosamine Sulfate 1500 mg †
Triple Action Joint Support Blend
Kolla2 (Collagen Type II, Chondroitin, Hyaluronic Acid, Glucosamine), Methyl-Sulfonyl-Methane (MSM) 350 mg †
Univestin
Chinese Skullcap (Scutellaria baicalensis) root extract, Acacia catechu heartwood extract, Maltodextrin 250 mg †

† Daily Value (DV) not established

Btw, Chinese Skullcap is used as an anti-androgen 

Hey Lotus,

My hormone levels are Testosterone 26 ng/ dL, and Estrogen 150 pg/dL. These are fairly acceptable levels on their own. I got this far on 4 mg oral estradiol and pretty much nothing else. Assuming these hormone levels stay constant if i do nothing, what should i next add to my regimen (of essentially just E right now) to aid breast growth?

-Aria

P.S. do you recommend a source for ginseng and/or cayenne for that tincture you thought of?

Hi Aria, 

That's impressive lab results only using 4mg of estradiol. You're testosterone levels are in the chemical castration zone. The estrogen needs a little bump, 200 pg/mL is standard to which feminization is more likely...however, everyone is different to estradiol exposure. Some transwoman have these threshold numbers in line with expectations and never reach tanner III or above...it can be very depressing. I've had good results when I combine progesterone with estradiol  simultaneously when taken orally. There's existing research out there that discovered co-admistration of certain oral steroid hormone upregulates their synthesis by 400%. But...I'm getting ahead of self, lol. Ask you're doctor to add progesterone to your program. Are you taking low dose aspirin?, discuss that with them too. 

Sometimes estradiol fails to activate its receptor, and there's a reason for that and it's technical, I will follow-up later today with the explanation as it's late and I'm tired.