[Manue]

I'm looking for advanced members to challenge my position about this problem. Any help is appreciated.

Here is my current situation, I have been on PM since October last year and began a feminization oriented program since December. Starting February 2022, my doctor prescribed me Finasteride 1.25mg. (See below for actual herbs program)

Before taking Finasteride my levels were the following :

Estradiol: 57 pmol/L
.Ref:
Hommes: <200
Femmes:
.folliculaire: 80 - 600
.mi-cycle: 180 - 1350
.lutéale : 150 - 950
.ménopause: <200

Testosterone total : 20,1 nmol/L
.Ref : 7 - 30

One month after taking Finasteride, those are my new levels :

Estradiol: <40 pmol/L
Testosterone total : 3 nmol/L

I received a call from my clinic pointing out to my low Estradiol and Testosterone to make a new appointment ASAP, so it's booked for Tuesday.

Symptoms wise, since taking Finasteride, I have been having increased chest pain and growth, overall skin softening, good energy, positive attitude, need for socialisation, increased eyelashes growth, I cry and laugh more easily and my focus is great. I haven't felt depressed at all and have been keeping myself busy with my schedule like never before.

This is what I would have expected from an Estrogen increase, not the opposite. My conclusion is that my blood tests don't pick up my estrogens from the herbs program and I believe my doctor is not gonna like it. But it works!

Seeing my T being so low, I believe there is obviously not enough FREE E anymore to source it. T has to go back to normal levels.

What I discussed with my doctor originally was to slowly bring down PM to 1000mg per day ultimately. I'm currently at 2000 - 2500mg per day.

My idea is that we should go blind to avoid drastic changes and not just swap PM for E, thus missing out on potential learning about PM. It's bad for science! Definitely Estrogens are not high enough because Testosterone is too low. My program probably converts all of the free Testosterone into Estrogen because of Finasteride? Introducing a low Estradiol prescription could potentially balance Testosterone back to a more normal level as a competing estrogen with PM while reducing PM down to 1.25g from 2.5g. That means another blood test in one month. I have to figure this out to be confident enough so my doc goes along with me. I feel like a mad scientist right now.

As soon as there is extra Estrogen, it's going to convert back into Testosterone, right? To me that sounds like the missing piece.

I would love people to help me figure this out before Tuesday. It should be good for the forum's records for people looking into deeper info.

Thanks to all!

My actual feminisation supplements program:

Natural Feminisation

Pumeraria Mirifica: 500mg x 4-5 (2-3 caps + powder every 4 hours.) (Targets E receptors, minor AA, pro-aromatase.)
Peony Root: 600mg (powder) (Estrogenic, blocks 5-αr and pro-aromatase)
MSM: 3 000mg (Powder) (STATs for prolactin pathway)
Reishi Complex (Life Extension): 625mg (Significantly reduces levels of 5-αr)

Fatty Acids

Krill Oil: 1000mg (Omega 3, phospholipids & astaxanthin)
Evening Primrose Oil: 1300mg (Omega 6)
Fish Oil: 1200mg (Omega 3)
MCT Oil: 1tbs (Sturated fat)

Vitamins & Proteins

Amino Acid Blend: 750mg x 2
CoQ10: 30mg
Vitamin C: 1000mg
Calcium+Vitamin D3: 600mg 1800UI x 2
Multivitamin
Melatonin 3mg: occasionally
Weight gainer powder: 35g (Fats, Whey and Casein proteins)

Creams

Progesterone Cream: Every other day following guidance
Estriol Cream: Every other day following guidance

Retiring upon depletion

Dandelion Root: 525mg (powder) (Liver cleanser and up-regulates estrogen receptors)
Alfalfa: 1950mg (Estrogenic and prevents hay fever)
L-Lysine: 552mg (powder) (Helps calcium absorption and may make DHT blockers more effective)
L-Arginine: 3000mg (Powder) (ED Therapy and potential to help with growth hormones.)

Planning to add

Milk Thistle

[Manue]

Instead of betting on Aromatase, Jamie pointed out to me that reducing Pro-Aromatase herbs should by itself free some Testosterone. So thinking about converting E to T is probably pointless at this stage.

Reducing PM should do just that, i.e. reducing Aromatase.

[Manue]

Pueraria mirifica Exerts Estrogenic Effects in the Mammary Gland and Uterus and Promotes Mammary Carcinogenesis in Donryu Rats

Trophic effects of estrogenic compounds on the mammary gland and uterus were previously suggested to be due to activation of signaling through estrogen receptors (ERs) ERα and ERβ [17]. It was reported that PM phytoestrogens at high doses could effectively outcompete 17 β-estradiol binding to ERα in MCF-7 cells [3].

the second group of coumestans comprises coumestrol, mirificoumestan, mirificoumestan glycol, and mirificoumestan hydrate; and the third features chromenes, such as miroestrol, deoxymiroestrol, and isomiroestrol [2]. All these substances are phytoestrogens with structures similar to that of 17 β-estradiol. Miroestrol, the phytoestrogen with the highest estrogenic activity among all those isolated from PM, is considered similar to estriol, which is considered the safest estrogen for humans [4,5,6,7]. Furthermore, PM has been reported to contain phytoestrogens like β-sitosterol, stigmasterol, campesterol, as well as the cytotoxic non-phytoestrogen spinasterol [3,8].

Good evening!

I'm probably alone in the world reading scientific articles on a Friday night but here we go.

Those points have probably been discussed in the Lotus' Project X thread. They provide the answers as to why it isn't picked up by a simple Estradiol test that is also suppressed by PM.

Those are my questions right now :

1. What good is Aromatase doing if Estradiol is being suppressed by the larger doses of PM?
   
2. Is it possible that my Testosterone was low because I took my 1st cycle of supplements as well as Finasteride 1 hour before my blood test?
   
3. Could a low dose PM bring mild benefits (Pro-Aromatase, AA) when taken alongside a dominant Estradiol?
   
4. Could Pro-Aromatase herbs like White Peony become irrelevant when taking larger doses of PM?
   

[Jamie-May]

So the problem is I'm not nearly as well studied on this stuff as lots of others here, but this is what I think about your questions.

1. It's very likely good to have Aromatase for T to E conversion even if little of it ends up binding to the receptors. I look at it like one of those, may as well have it rather than risk having more T kinda deals. That is unless your T is lower than you want it.

2. I do think your T could be low due to taking supplements and Fina so close before a test, but Fina I believe mostly has to do with DHT blocking. Either way though, maybe your T shouldn't of been as low as it was. The body is a strange vessel.

3. I don't know about this one. I wouldn't risk it without having others try to back it up one way or another. I believe if it was at all helpful it would need to be in a super low dose so as to avoid too much competition between the estrogen and phytoestrogen.

4. If this is something like monotherapy where you take a high dose of E without a blocker, you likely wouldn't need aromatase too badly for T to E conversion. I'm not sure if PM is strong enough on its own to accomplish such a thing on its own however, and if it was, you'd likely need to take a whole lot more than you should.

[Manue]

Thanks for chipping in Jamie. I really appreciate your input!

My idea about a low dose PM alongside Estradiol is based mostly on this passage from the article referenced up there :

Miroestrol, the phytoestrogen with the highest estrogenic activity among all those isolated from PM, is considered similar to estriol, which is considered the safest estrogen for humans [4,5,6,7].

The problem with PM is that it would be too costly to analyse our levels on it. That's my problem right now. Knowing it's potentially safer than Estradiol, taken at a dose that doesn't outcompete it would probably mean higher levels of estrogen at a safer effect. So long as Estradiol is not being suppressed, I believe it would have more benefits, just like for women taking PM at low dose. I also see here a better potential for breast growth where one could take the 8mg Estradiol coupled with PM at 1000mg. Of course this might be idealistic, but I love to think injections could be avoided in the long term.

I'm willing to go forward with that. That means blood tests, blood tests and more blood tests!

I believe I'm ready for appointment tomorrow. I just need her input on my low testosterone before making any decision as to where I'll be going with this.

[Manue]

Good evening everyone!

I'm back to report on the outcome of my appointment.

Here is the summary of what they told me. It's very short!

We don't know what you're doing exactly, but your Testosterone is at the correct level according to your objectives. 3 nmol/L is at the ceiling of the female range. The rest of your blood test is also on target including your symptoms and development. Since you want to move to Estradiol, we have to see your level rise before going to maximum dose, so we're going to prescribe you 6mg for now and your next blood test is in 4 weeks. Make sure you time your phyto correctly so it doesn't block your Estradiol.

I'm really out of words about how I'm feeling right now. It's like I worked so hard to make things work and it's really working! All those hours reading the Project X thread and articles really paid back.

I just love to push the boundaries a little.

I'm going to update my personal plan on th 9th of April. I don't believe I have anything to show off but I think we can see some improvement.

I hope this short thread can add to the pool of info about PM. I'm going to keep it updated with the results about the mix of pharma and PM in particular.

I want to thank Lotus for her hard work and people that contributed to the lot of info about herbs.

God bless you all!

[Tania80]

Hello manue, congratulations for your results and your effort. I am very glad that you are happy and that your program is going from strength to strength.

I think that soon I will follow your same program. I only have a few doubts about the creams that are in your program:

Creams

Progesterone Cream: Every other day following guidance
Estriol Cream: Every other day following guidance

Can you provide me with those guidances you mention? I would also appreciate the brand and model of both creams.

And last question: Is USP estriol cream more effective than PM cream? I have to make a new cream purchase and I don't know which of the two to decide.


Thank you very much and kisses!

[Manue]

Hello Tania. I hope you're doing well!

Thank you for the kind message and for the trust.

I basically use the same approach with my endo as I do with my business clients. I guess work according to my experience and offer recommendations to optimize and I later take feedback to make adjustments.

My recommendation Tania is to not use my program and I'm worried about the headaches you had. I also don't know about your diet and you have to balance that 1st before putting in that list incrementally.

How is that going btw?

In my case, everytime I add something new, my body goes crazy the 1st few days but then adapts. My sugar comes mostly from honey and organic sources. I stopped drinking beer also. The MCT oil helps feeding your body while leaving the liver process differents things than bad fats and sugars. Sea baths also detoxify the body. It's all about balance so please please please be mindful of your body. I'm going for a health exam by the end of spring as well to make sure all is in check.

As for my creams, I take the less is more approach. At the moment, I'm using Smokey Mountain for both Progesterone and Estriol. One day is for the former, the next day is for the later. I delimited 6 zones (Inner thighs, belly, Inner arms and boobies) of soft skin and I rotate the creams everyday. Since I'm from Canada, I have to shop from resellers to get them and it can become expensive. In the future I'm moving to Biovea which is shipped worldwide.

If you want my input about Estriol vs PM Cream, I believe PM to win hands down. My issue with the PM cream though is that it's so expensive! Estriol then becomes a safe and cheap alternative for me.

You might prefer investing in the PM cream/atomizer rather than caps. Which might work better for you so it's personnal at that point.

Ive been experiencing more with sea baths lately and started adding between 500-750mg PM powder in the water. The result was an even softer and shiny skin overnight... I'm thinking of making a thread about the sea bath topic sooner or later as the transdermal approach might be of interest to people enjoying the topical way already.

Tea is great but I think relaxing in it is even better haha!

Kisses back!

[Tania80]

Hello Manue,

Thank you for your message!

My recommendation Tania is to not use my program and I'm worried about the headaches you had. I also don't know about your diet and you have to balance that 1st before putting in that list incrementally.
How is that going btw?

After the headaches, I did a week off and they went away completely. So there was something in my program that caused it.

So the next week I started with 500mg of PM at night, taking only the reishi in the morning. No problem, no pain.

The next, the first day I added 500mg PM in the morning with reishi, and again headaches in the morning. The second day, I only had reishi, and I had no headaches. Well, it can be two things: excess MP or the combination of MP+RR. So the third day I took only PM in the morning and Reishi at noon or evening. I had no headaches! So the problem was taking PM and reishi at the same time!

And for now I'm still like this, but headaches, separating both herbs. We cross our fingers!

As for my creams, I take the less is more approach. At the moment, I'm using Smokey Mountain for both Progesterone and Estriol. One day is for the former, the next day is for the later. I delimited 6 zones (Inner thighs, belly, Inner arms and boobies) of soft skin and I rotate the creams everyday. Since I'm from Canada, I have to shop from resellers to get them and it can become expensive. In the future I'm moving to Biovea which is shipped worldwide.

If you want my input about Estriol vs PM Cream, I believe PM to win hands down. My issue with the PM cream though is that it's so expensive! Estriol then becomes a safe and cheap alternative for me.

You might prefer investing in the PM cream/atomizer rather than caps. Which might work better for you so it's personnal at that point.

I buy the pills and creams from Biovea and I am very happy with that company.

I can't compare Biovea pills with Ainterol as I haven't bought there, but I think Biovea being a well-known company gives me some confidence. The only thing is that it is more expensive than Ainterol since Biovea pills are 250mg (half of Ainterol), which means spending more money. Although from time to time Biovea does many offers, like now that they are doing a 20% discount on all their products.

Biovea creams are also very good, they have a good touch and smell! I have bought the 2 creams: PM cream and Progesterone USP.

For that reason I asked you about the effectiveness of Estriol USP cream, because Biovea's is also cheaper than PM cream. Also, I think if I'm taking the PM pills, it doesn't make much sense for me to put the PM cream on, right?
On the other hand, I have been reading that the creams with the name "USP" are the closest to the synthetic ones, so perhaps the Estriol USP cream is more effective than the PM cream in terms of feminizing the body.

What do you think about it?

Ive been experiencing more with sea baths lately and started adding between 500-750mg PM powder in the water. The result was an even softer and shiny skin overnight... I'm thinking of making a thread about the sea bath topic sooner or later as the transdermal approach might be of interest to people enjoying the topical way already.

Oh, yes, please! I am interested to know! 

[Manue]

So the next week I started with 500mg of PM at night, taking only the reishi in the morning. No problem, no pain.

May I ask what is your brand of Reishi?

I believe it is possible to have reactions to fillers or caps so even if they are taken apart it's going to get tricky when you reach higher dosage as you want to take as many small doses of PM as possible. I was taking 500mg every 4 hours so it would be hard to take Reishi outside of that. That's something to keep in mind if you want to take the Fem Body path.

For that reason I asked you about the effectiveness of Estriol USP cream, because Biovea's is also cheaper than PM cream. Also, I think if I'm taking the PM pills, it doesn't make much sense for me to put the PM cream on, right?
On the other hand, I have been reading that the creams with the name "USP" are the closest to the synthetic ones, so perhaps the Estriol USP cream is more effective than the PM cream in terms of feminizing the body.

You might be correct to consider the Estriol cream. Maybe in your case you could use it just like I do as being the safest cream and consider the PM cream a plus until you figure out for the bad reactions issue. It can still be temporary so I would keep experiencing with matching both. Maybe even try a different brand of PM/Reishi and see what happens... As I understand you really want to feminize so you have to take enough Phytoestrogen so they become dominant in your body. That's where your PM Cream comes at play for now as Estriol Cream won't do that.

At some point, you'll go through a "switch", I don't know if there is a specific term for that. I'm 34, 173cm, fast metabolizm, low BMI and 145 pounds. The switch happened at 2000 - 2500mg per day after 3 weeks on this dose following a slow increase from 500mg per day over 4 months. My Doctor believes Finasteride had nothing to do with the low Testosterone that resulted from that "switch". On the contrary, Finasteride makes higher Testosterone possible. So it's probably the effect of the synergy within the whole program and my diet/habits.

I would have loved to keep on that path but as we are dealing with "banished" science, not being able to measure my Phytoestrogen levels on the spot in my State is disheartening. So I'm back to 500mg PM before bed along Estradiol until my next blood test. As I'm going to progress on my path towards becoming a Naturopath, I'll probably end up walking in private labs from my area in the future to discuss the possibilities of having a test available for anybody wanting to measure their phytoestrogen being more present in our diet. It's also a possible factor in breast cancer for women and ED/Gyne issues for men... Streamlining natural feminization for AMAB people using that test would be nice too.

Don't hesitate if you have further questions related to this because it's definitely on topic with this thread. Again, as far as breast growth and curves are concerned, I don't think I have anything to show off from my own physical changes. Though, I love my baby skin.  I consider myself very early in my transition and having my levels on target tells me it's going to happen sooner rather than later and I would love to help people on the same path to reach those levels.

Have a nice one Tania.