Just a quick question, been doing NBE for around 3 month's now, started with FG plus the usual supporting herbs before moving onto PM, starting to get some changes like the sore nipples and the odd ache, don't think I've budded just yet but there is what feels like a small lump/ bump just below the nipples, but anyways I digress.

Will be continuing with the PM for the foreseeable, but I still have a few herbs from my first few weeks into NBE, now my question is will adding FG( got a few bottles of this be a shame for it to go to waste) be counter productive or will it support the program as it's mainly a prolactin source? Finding mixed information on it as some have had good results taking both but some say FG lowers the effects of PM? So thought I'd ask the more experienced member's what they have found?

Just a quick question, been doing NBE for around 3 month's now, started with FG plus the usual supporting herbs before moving onto PM, starting to get some changes like the sore nipples and the odd ache, don't think I've budded just yet but there is what feels like a small lump/ bump just below the nipples, but anyways I digress.

Will be continuing with the PM for the foreseeable, but I still have a few herbs from my first few weeks into NBE, now my question is will adding FG( got a few bottles of this be a shame for it to go to waste) be counter productive or will it support the program as it's mainly a prolactin source? Finding mixed information on it as some have had good results taking both but some say FG lowers the effects of PM? So thought I'd ask the more experienced member's what they have found?

I'm asking the same question in the General Forum.  Did you ever get a response to your question?  Did you try combining PM and FG? any results?

Best regards,

Good question. I think there should be a new feed set up for interaction herbs as some herbs do cause issue. But this does not effect everyone.

Iam also thinking about PM as at present i take 2 x 610mg FG 3 x a day with a few other herbs to help my growth only been doing this 3 months and seen little progress hense the PM move but will it be safe with FG.

I got my most impressive results from using PM, FG and RR, am actually a little bit busty as you can see a bit. A few months ago I read that PM and FG are competing for the same receptors or something like that so cancel each other out so I dropped the FG.

Nothing much happing these last few months so am going to start taking both again and see if I feel differently.

I had definite growing pains before so will see if the combo works for me again.

 Hey there unknowntraveller and Chuck, I'm happy to clear things up. 

Pm and FG are estrogenic, FG can increase E2 levels (science attached), PM acts similarly to estradiol via miroestrol/deoxymiroestrol. FG and PM are competing for the same receptor and what ends happening is what's called over expressio which results in a disruption of normal estrogen signaling to the nucleus, meaning no breast growth. 

Hi Joey,

I don't think you should coalesce E2 and FG, meaning they both are competing for the same estrogen receptor. Here's some notes I made some years ago about how FG stimulates E2 (estradiol). Plus, one glaring no-no for me is that FG can lower SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) via in favor of T. SHBG transports hormones in the blood to various tissue receptors. SHBG is like a ying/yang scenario. Meaning (for example) when estradiol is high SHBG will be high (verified by a blood test, and thus T will be low). E2 will keep SHBG high, favoring breast growth.

IMHO, choose one or the other, and stick with it. Though don't forget the PC.

I posted this last year, take a look at the diagram in table 2, in specifically the increase in dhea, progesterone, FSH (follicle stimulating hormone...a pure aromatase imo) testosterone and prolactin, respectively. From the study I believe the bump in libido comes from DHEA (similar to maca), however, the way FG increases E2 (dramatically in month 2) comes from its aromatase capabilities (from multiple pathways I believe), but mostly from FSH.

Influence of a Specialized Trigonella foenum- graecum Seed Extract (Libifem), on Testosterone, Estradiol and Sexual Function in Healthy Menstruating Women, a Randomised Placebo Controlled Study
_________________________
The aim of the study was to evaluate the effect of Trigonellafoenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract on sex hormones and sexual function in healthy menstruating women who reported low sexual drive. This short term, single site, double blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study was conducted on 80 women, aged 20 to 49 years. Participants were randomized to either an oral dose of a standardized T. foenum-graecum seed extract (libifem) at a dose of 600 mg/day or placebo over two menstrual cycles. Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, progesterone, androstenedione, total and free testosterone, estradiol (E2), luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, sex hormone binding globulin and cholesterol were measured at baseline and 8 weeks. The individual aspects of sexual function were measured using the Derogatis interview for sexual functioning and female sexual function index self-administered questionnaires. Stress, fatigue and quality of the relationship with partners were also measured using the PSS (Perceived Stress Scale), MFI-20 (Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory) and DAS (Dyadic Adjustment Scale) quality of life measures, respectively. There was a significant increase in free testosterone and E2 in the active group as well as sexual desire and arousal compared with the placebo group. The results indicate that this extract of T. foenum-graecum may be a useful treatment for increasing sexual arousal and desire in women. Copyright © 2015 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Luis_Vitetta/publication/275354668_Influence_of_a_Specialized_Trigonella_foenum_graecum_Seed_Extract_Libifem_on_Testosterone_Estradiol_and_Sexual_Function_in_Healthy_Menstruating_Women_a_Randomised_Placebo_Controlled_Study/links/553ae3960cf2c415bb08fe6d/Influence-of-a-Specialized-Trigonella-foenum-graecum-Seed-Extract-Libifem-on-Testosterone-Estradiol-and-Sexual-Function-in-Healthy-Menstruating-Women-a-Randomised-Placebo-Controlled-Study.pdf

Well yeah, but judging from this study FG pretty much upregulates everything, see here: 

.
Administration of T. foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels. Estradiol stimulates vaginal lubrication and blood flow, affecting a woman’s capacity for sexual arousal and orgasm (Simon, 2011); this supports the significant positive change in sexual arousal observed. Whilst the mechanism of the increase in E2 levels is unclear from the current study, one possibility is due to increased aromatase activity that converts testosterone to E2.

my interpretation of how FG increases E2 is explained above.

I now understand how highly organized molecules function inside the mitochondrial matrix, for instance: ATP (which stands for Adenosine Triphosphate) is the Energy Currency for Cells, but before I get into the science (which blows my mind) I must admit ignorance in my early NBE programs.....yup!, I didn't know any better back then    but here I am now better prepared/informed and ready take on the science of NBE/hrt. 

Btw, only using 600 mg of fenugreek (with 50% saponins) works just fine:
Fenugreek increases estradiol
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=26172

Part of the reason (which I now believe) what makes fenugreek useful for NBE is how it works in stomach acid...the saponins (emulsifiers) in FG is a mechanism for boosting estradiol in stomach acid, I'll follow up on that later though. 
 

Thanks you Lotus for the great reply that really helps!  I'll avoid the FG.  Are there any supplements that do work with PM, that I should be trying, SP, RR etc?

My situation is a little bit different.  I had a pituitary tumor that knocked out my T production, so after surgery I've been on T replacement therapy, so between the initial low T due to the Pituitary tumor, then the T replacement therapy I developed some breast growth with a currently high T number.  Earlier this year I started taking PM and I've gotten some additional breast growth which I'd like to continue as much as possible.

Best regards,

ChuckM

If it were me I'd opt for RR and something along the lines of a pro-aromatase, though I'd have to get back to you on the aromatase. Have you tested your testosterone lately?

If it were me I'd opt for RR and something along the lines of a pro-aromatase, though I'd have to get back to you on the aromatase. Have you tested your testosterone lately?

Yes, about a month ago.  I don't have the exact number, but I believe it was around 1000.

Best regards,

Hey again Chuck,

So there's this phenomenon in the body known as supraphysiological response, and I mention this as I'm about to explain this scenario to you. Let's say you stop the T replacement for 20-30 days, your body is going to notice the reduction in T and will retaliate wanting to produce more T, but it can't keep up. All of the sudden " WHAM " and it produces this supraphysiological amount of testosterone response to make up for the loss of T…and guess what? it gets converted to aromatase via what's called cAMP (cyclic adenosine monophosphate) which is a second messenger involved in a sig nal transduction cascade, in other words it's a powerful pro-aromatase made naturally in the body...and its free.   So, in this scenario all you need is PM. Theoretically you could try two week on T and two weeks off...or shorter intervals. 

Has your doctor discussed bone demineralization and testosterone therapy, or calcium and vitamin D supplementation? Lastly, you might want to have a conversation with him/her about your desire for breast growth. 

A supra-physiological dose of testosterone cypionate will undoubtedly synthesize to the aromatase enzyme in men with low T...in other words, the excess T provided by the injection is dumped to aromatase instead of being converted to DHT. This is what happens when NBE/hrt is started too (known as a surge)...though it drops off between 30-60 days. 


Per/wiki: supraphysiological

(medicine) Of or relating to a dose of a medicine that is larger than that of an equivalent hormone or other compound normally present in the body
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/supraphysiological

A few things about FG, taken in large quantities it will drop your blood sugar fast. There was a guy on the lady's forum recommending women take 50,000mg of fenugreek, which is utter nonsense even for an adult male. A good friend of mine followed his advice of taking the ghastly amount of FG and passed out & woke up in the hospital with a fair amount of stitches in her chin. This reminds of when someone says you need to take 16 capsules of BO, or 3,000mg to 4,000mg of PM, where did this information come from?, nobody knows. I fell victim to it too. The study from post #5 above list's 600mg of FG proved effective in raising estradiol in women. Granted, it'll need a dose adjustment for males, but certainly not 50,000mg. 

Thanks Lotus for another extremely helpful response.

Interesting thought about cycling the T replacement.  Would I also cycle the PM, or just continue on a regular schedule?

Coincidentally I have an appointment with my doc on Tuesday to talk about calcium and bone supplements.  No plans to discuss my interest in my breast growth, I have zero interest in transitioning or developing any other female body characteristics,

though depending on how I'm dressed, or if he needs to examine me I'm sure he'd notice my larger breasts.

Prior to developing some gynecomastia due to my pituitary tumor and subsequent T replacement therapy, I had no interest in having breasts.  But now I love having them and would like to do everything I reasonably can to maximize their growth and full potential.  I'm really excited that I recently got to the point where I can no longer wear a polo or light shirt around family or friends without a tight T-shirt or camisole under it for a little compression.  Hopefully in time there'll be no hiding them from anyone.  I'm not fat, I go to the gym on a pretty regular basis and am reasonably fit, so my breasts can't be confused with fat man moobs.

Best regards,