[Siman234]

Question if I may ask, Lotus. I've been trying to search through threads on this forum for any mention of boron, since I've heard that can help with free E. Is there any research you've looked into or talked about in this thread? 400+ pages is a lot to look through.

[Mel87]

@Lotus

Hi, I couldn't help but notice Chocolate was mentioned o.o!!!!! but is there hope for us white chocolate lovers I can't stand bitter dark chocolate 

[Lotus]

Question if I may ask, Lotus. I've been trying to search through threads on this forum for any mention of boron, since I've heard that can help with free E. Is there any research you've looked into or talked about in this thread? 400+ pages is a lot to look through.

Hi Siman, no worries, here's what I have on Boron. Incidentally, at the bottom of every thread is a search function, simply insert your search term and "presto" ? you'll have every post that I've talked about that certain topic. Btw, there's other ways to improve free E2 percentage, like reducing daily carbohydrates and sugar intake (insulin). Make sure to get free E2 tested next week too. Concerning my own free E2 percentage, as the PA ( Physicians Assistant) at my doctors office told my free E2 was very good at 1.6%. Rarely is someone at 2% (the optimal level).

My latest test results came back as follows:

E2  386 pg/mL 
Free  E2 1.6%
TT  45 ng/dL 
DHT  41 ng/dL. ( reference range 12-65 ng/dL)
SHBG  131 nmol/
Progesterone  18 ng/mL
FSH  0.7 mIU/mL
LH  0.2 mIU/mL
3A-androstanediol glucuronide....298ng/dL  ref range 425-3230 ng/dL 

This is the backdoor androgen and the subsequent test leaking from progesterone to DHT. My level at 298 ng/dL is well below the reference range even using Dr. Powers Testosterone Atrophy cream @ .50mg (the stuff really works), though it raised my TT (total Testosterone and DHT), it restored girth and length, i use 1x per week for for the past 3 months alongside my hrt program. My purpose for using it is in preparation for bottom surgery. If you use this cream for the same purpose plan on either laser/electrolysis one year out prior to surgery and opt for Dr. Powers pain cream (25% lidocaine)or similar. I believe you need to be a Powers patient.

Great thread, recently starting taking Boron worried about heavy metals, and I do the liver detox every other month. So I added MSM and Boron. I think every other day for the standard low does Boron fine and how much and at what time to take MSM?..I saw this thread on the web, jumped back, did a search and found this thread, thanks again Lotus.
https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24268550 and
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1566640/

Hi happyboobs, 

I've seen boron dosages at between 3 mg to 20mg, as with any new supplement one needs to start slowly, (e.g. starting at 3mg and see how your body reacts to it). The study I linked on boron found results using 3mg. There's no RDA (recommended daily allowance), so proceed with caution. My thoughts on how to use boron for NBE is that if your T is above 100 ng/dL you'll need to take an anti-androgen to see an increase in E2. And if T is consistently below 50ng/dL maybe you supplement with a pro-aromatase, (my preference is Forskolin and or white peony.

• Two things from the study sticks out for me,
1) boron regulates the messenger RNA (mRNA) expression of a wide range of extracellular-matrix proteins

2) Boron doubles E2 expression in men and women, but it took 4 weeks. 

(also from the study)
In women on a low-magnesium diet, E2 almost doubled, increasing from an average of 21.1 pg/mL to 41.4 pg/mL. Testosterone more than doubled, rising from an average of 0.31 ng/mL to 0.83 ng/mL. Similar increases were seen in the women on an adequate-magnesium diet: E2 rose from an average of 15.5 pg/mL to 38.0 pg/mL, and testosterone increased from 0.38 ng/mL to 0.65 ng/mL. In 1997, Naghii et al21 published findings of a similar increase in serum levels of E2 in healthy males (n = 18) after 4 weeks of dietary supplementation with boron.

As far as when to supplement MSM (and how much) is taking it in the evening, preferably at bedtime, and 2-3 grams (that's 2,000mg to 3,000mg). And I'll explain further in the next post why supplementing at bedtime makes more sense for a growth phase to happen versus daytime phase supplementing hopefully tonight. 
@ spanky... I love to dance   
@ Valkyrie...you smart girl lol, be very careful with Fenugreek, it'll drop blood glucose fast, too fast in certain groups, meaning hypoglycemia, and very bad for diabetics. Also, if you have nut allergies you'd better stay away from fenugreek. 

As with any supplements, source organic when possible and clean ingredients, meaning non-gmo, no rice flour, no maltodextrin or dextrose, all of which spikes insulin. Spiking daytime insulin is bad for boobs imho... which I'll outline in the next post. Adding maltodextrin to Stevia makes no sense whatsoever to me, (stevia is a low-calorie sweetener that has antioxidant and antidiabetic properties. It reduces hunger and improves satiety, which is undone by adding maltodextrin, just saying lol). 

@troublewithnibbles, I'm very intrigued by your question in the anti-androgens thread (can't wait till I can answer that one), I can't remember ever being asked that, what a great question though.

Some more informations about Boron:

Boron affects the metabolism of steroid hormones, and especially of sex hormones. It increases low testosterone levels in men and oestrogen levels in menopausal women. It also has a role in converting vitamin D to its active form, thus increasing calcium uptake and deposition into bone and teeth rather than causing soft tissue to calcify. Also other beneficial effects have been reported such as improvement of heart problems, vision, psoriasis, balance, memory and cognition.

The German cancer researcher Dr Paul-Gerhard Seeger has shown that cancer commonly starts with the deterioration of cell membranes. As boron is essential for cell membranes and boron deficiency widespread, this may be an important cause for the initiation of tumor growth. Boron compounds have anti-tumour properties and are "potent anti-osteoporotic, anti-inflammatory, hypolipemic, anticoagulant and anti-neoplastic agents" 

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/borax.htm

- Boron was shown to have reduced the incidence of prostate cancer development by 64%

- Non Toxic: Doses up to 18mg of boron daily appear to be safe for adults even if taken for prolonged periods of time.

- Helps in production of estrogen. Boron might improve the production of estrogen in menopausal women, bringing back their sex drive within a few days of treatment. Boron increases the level of natural sex hormones in the body, thereby reducing the need for Hormone replacement therapy.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gyso...ggAmo/edit

Great find Peggy, the daily multi-vitamin I take lists 150 mcg. of Boron. The google link has some pretty interesting uses for boron, (sleep aid, pain and detox I didn't know).
 
Thanks

[Lotus]

Hi Mel, 

Great to chat with you again, that bitterness is called " Theobromine " and despite its annoying aftertaste it does have its purpose…even for breast enlargement. You'll find Theobromine in coffee, tea, dark chocolate and trace amounts in white chocolate. I'm attaching a wiki link that describes additional benefits. But the one benefit for nbe from theobromine comes from the fact it inhibits PDE (phosphodiesterase). Anytime you inhibit PDE inside the cytoplasm magical things happen ? for our nbe purpose it aids in breast growth. 
 
Quote
The cyclic nucleotide phosphodiesterases comprise a group of enzymes that degrade the phosphodiester bond in the second messenger molecules cAMP and cGMP. They regulate the localization, duration, and amplitude of cyclic nucleotide signaling within subcellular domains. PDEs are therefore important regulators of signal transduction mediated by these second messenger molecules. 
End science quote. 

Imo, if PDE's aren't inhibited in the cytoplasm then estrogen metabolism becomes increasingly inefficient, lol a conversion for another day. ?

PDE4-Mediated cAMP Signaling 
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29385021/
Phosphodiesterase
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphodiesterase

Btw Mel, I love both: white chocolate and dark chocolate

[Mel87]

Oh this is very interesting, being a asthma suffer for awhile and reading how this works, the benefits go on and on wow! So I know some of my issue I brought some of Montezuma's Absolute Black, its a British Brand of Chocolate and one of the few places that you can get 100% Black from yes.... its that amount of Dark Chocolate but gosh is it bitter. So I'm guessing I can still get the same benefits if I got a 70% or so instead just to take the edge off 

Thank you for finding this for me it was a really cool read! 

[Heaven's Night]

Oh this is very interesting, being a asthma suffer for awhile and reading how this works, the benefits go on and on wow! So I know some of my issue I brought some of Montezuma's Absolute Black, its a British Brand of Chocolate and one of the few places that you can get 100% Black from yes.... its that amount of Dark Chocolate but gosh is it bitter. So I'm guessing I can still get the same benefits if I got a 70% or so instead just to take the edge off 

Thank you for finding this for me it was a really cool read! 

I know a brand which is 75% I think and it has mint in it which smooths out the bitterness really nicely. For me its not an issue as I love all kinds of bitter tastes so much. HRT has made that even more apparent, don't ask how, I just work here.

I was surprised to notice the mention about coffee.

[Gabrielle]

Oh this is very interesting, being a asthma suffer for awhile and reading how this works, the benefits go on and on wow! So I know some of my issue I brought some of Montezuma's Absolute Black, its a British Brand of Chocolate and one of the few places that you can get 100% Black from yes.... its that amount of Dark Chocolate but gosh is it bitter. So I'm guessing I can still get the same benefits if I got a 70% or so instead just to take the edge off 

Thank you for finding this for me it was a really cool read! 

I know a brand which is 75% I think and it has mint in it which smooths out the bitterness really nicely. For me its not an issue as I love all kinds of bitter tastes so much. HRT has made that even more apparent, don't ask how, I just work here.

I was surprised to notice the mention about coffee.

Even guiness?lol

[Lotus]

Tbh, it's a sticky mess but worth the effort for enhanced areolas. It's called " Royal Jelly "...I find applying RJ to areolas benefits the size and shape of areolas...also breasts if one is willing to manage the mess. Application is sticky (did I mention that already, lol) use a food grade plastic wrap per area and let it sit overnight...in the morning nearly all the RJ is absorbed, shower and see results either immediately or throughout the day. This may/or may not work for everyone, it is pollen after all...don't use Royal Jelly if you're allergic to bee stings and bee pollen. 


J Med Food. 2012 Jun;15(6):568-75. doi: 10.1089/jmf.2011.1888. Epub 2012 Apr 2.
Royal jelly increases collagen production in rat skin after ovariectomy.

Park HM1, Cho MH, Cho Y, Kim SY.
Author information
Abstract
Royal jelly (RJ) is a honey bee product that contains proteins, carbohydrates, fats, free amino acids, vitamins, and minerals. RJ has been reported to have antitumor, antibacterial, and wound-healing activities. We previously reported that RJ enhanced the migration of human dermal fibroblasts and altered the levels of cholesterol and sphinganine in an in vitro wound-healing model in addition to regulating skin photoaging following exposure to ultraviolet-B radiation. We established an animal model of skin aging in the context of estrogen deficiency and assessed the antiaging effects of RJ on skin. To establish an in vivo model of skin aging, bilateral ovariectomies were performed in 12-week-old virgin female Sprague-Dawley rats. Induction of osteoporosis was confirmed through two-dimensional images of the trabecular bone in the left femoral necks using microcomputed tomography. The protective effects of RJ ovariectomy-induced skin aging were examined by determining the protein expression of type I procollagen and matrix metalloproteinase (MMP)-1. The collagen content and epidermal thickness of skin tissue were measured by staining techniques. There was a significant difference in weight between sham-operated and ovariectomized groups. Food efficiency ratio did not differ significantly among the groups. The level of procollagen type I protein was increased in the dorsal skin of ovariectomized rats fed with a dietary supplement containing 1% RJ extract, but the level of MMP-1 was not altered. In particular, the amount of collagen recovered was close to the normal level. RJ may protect against skin aging by enhancing collagen production in rats with ovariectomy-induced estrogen deficiency.
PMID: 22468645 PMCID: PMC3359633 DOI: 10.1089/jmf.2011.1888
[Indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article


Bioactive compounds and health-promoting properties of royal jelly: A review
http://medicata.lt/wp-content/uploads/20...review.pdf


Fatty acids derived from royal jelly are modulators of estrogen receptor functions.
Moutsatsou P1, Papoutsi Z, Kassi E, Heldring N, Zhao C, Tsiapara A, Melliou E, Chrousos GP, Chinou I, Karshikoff A, Nilsson L, Dahlman-Wright K.
Author information

Abstract
Royal jelly (RJ) excreted by honeybees and used as a nutritional and medicinal agent has estrogen-like effects, yet the compounds mediating these effects remain unidentified. The possible effects of three RJ fatty acids (FAs) (10-hydroxy-2-decenoic-10H2DA, 3,10-dihydroxydecanoic-3,10DDA, sebacic acid-SA) on estrogen signaling was investigated in various cellular systems. In MCF-7 cells, FAs, in absence of estradiol (E(2)), modulated the estrogen receptor (ER) recruitment to the pS2 promoter and pS2 mRNA levels via only ERβ but not ERα, while in presence of E(2) FAs modulated both ERβ and ERα. Moreover, in presence of FAs, the E(2)-induced recruitment of the EAB1 co-activator peptide to ERα is masked and the E(2)-induced estrogen response element (ERE)-mediated transactivation is inhibited. In HeLa cells, in absence of E(2), FAs inhibited the ERE-mediated transactivation by ERβ but not ERα, while in presence of E(2), FAs inhibited ERE-activity by both ERβ and ERα. Molecular modeling revealed favorable binding of FAs to ERα at the co-activator-binding site, while binding assays showed that FAs did not bind to the ligand-binding pocket of ERα or ERβ. In KS483 osteoblasts, FAs, like E(2), induced mineralization via an ER-dependent way. Our data propose a possible molecular mechanism for the estrogenic activities of RJ's components which, although structurally entirely different from E(2), mediate estrogen signaling, at least in part, by modulating the recruitment of ERα, ERβ and co-activators to target genes.


Royal jelly has estrogenic effects in vitro and in vivo.
Mishima S1, Suzuki KM, Isohama Y, Kuratsu N, Araki Y, Inoue M, Miyata T.

Author information
Abstract
Royal jelly (RJ) from honeybees (Apis mellifera) is traditionally thought to improve menopausal symptoms. The potential estrogenic activities of RJ were investigated using various approaches. RJ competed for binding of 17beta-estradiol to the human estrogen receptor alpha and beta but its affinities were weak compared with diethylstilbestrol and phytoestrogens. The reporter gene expression assays suggested that 0.1-1 mg/ml RJ activated estrogen receptors, leading to enhanced transcription of a reporter gene through an estrogen-responsive element. 1 mg/ml RJ stimulated the mRNA expression of estrogen-responsive pS2 and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) by increasing gene transcription in MCF-7 cells. Treatment with RJ at concentrations ranging from 0.5 to 1 mg/ml enhanced MCF-7 cell proliferation, but concomitant treatment with 1 microM tamoxifen blocked this effect. In vivo studies using ovariectomized rats showed that 17beta-estradiol (20 mg/kg, s.c.) treatment restored VEGF expression in both uterus and brain, whereas RJ (1 g/kg, s.c.) restored it in uterus but not in brain. These findings provide evidence that RJ has estrogenic activities through interaction with estrogen receptors followed by endogenous gene expressions.
PMID: 15946813  DOI: 10.1016/j.jep.2005.04.012


Effect of royal jelly ingestion for six months on healthy volunteers.

Morita H1, Ikeda T, Kajita K, Fujioka K, Mori I, Okada H, Uno Y, Ishizuka T.

Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Royal jelly is a widely ingested supplement for health, but its effects on humans are not well known. The objective was to evaluate the effects of long-term royal jelly ingestion on humans.
METHODS:
We conducted a randomized placebo-controlled, double-blind trial. A total of 61 healthy volunteers aged 42-83 years were enrolled and were randomly divided into a royal jelly group (n = 31) and a control group (n = 30). Three thousand mg of royal jelly (RJ) or a placebo in 100 ml liquid/day were ingested for 6 months. The primary outcomes were changes in anthropometric measurements and biochemical indexes from baseline to 6 months after intervention.
RESULTS:
Thirty subjects in the RJ group and 26 in the control group were included in the analysis of endpoints. In an adjusted mean change of the variables from the baseline, significant differences between the two groups could be found in red blood cell counts (+0.16x10⁶/μL for the RJ group vs. -0.01x10⁶/μL for the control group, P = 0.0134), hematocrit (+0.9% vs. -0.8%, P = 0.0251), log (fasting plasma glucose) (+0.01 ± 0.01 log mg/dL vs. +0.05 ± 0.01 log mg/dL, P = 0.0297), log (insulinogenic index) (+0.25 vs. -0.13, P = 0.0319), log dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) (+0.08 log μg/dL vs. +0.20 log μg/dL, P = 0.0483), log testosterone (T) (+0.12 ± 0.04 log ng/mL vs. -0.02 ± 0.05 log ng/mL, P = 0.0416), log T/DHEA-S ratio (+0.05 ± 0.05 vs. -0.23 ± 0.59, P = 0.0015), and in one of the SF-36 subscale scores, mental health (MH) (+4 vs. -7, P = 0.0276).
CONCLUSIONS:
Six-month ingestion of RJ in humans improved erythropoiesis, glucose tolerance and mental health. Acceleration of conversion from DHEA-S to T by RJ may have been observed among these favorable effects.

[Mel87]

Hiya Lotus,

I've been thinking about RJ for awhile now but I'm a Type 2 diabetic in deep remission to the point my hba1c test results are pristine and not even showing diabetic symptoms in eye exams either. But RJ is a fickle beast that's been bugging me especially with wondering if glucose can bypass the skin barrier, I found raw sugar can't but if the skin is hurt or damaged, (aka noogle) or the skin is exfoliated with a method that can cause abrasions it can also.

This lead to me wondering if it would be safe for me to use, as if glucose bypasses the nipple barrier or breast tissue is it possible this could lead to nerve damage long term? I did some research about hyperglycemia causing further damage to the epidermal integrity that leads to ulcers and amputation as an well known issue with long term high glucose levels which would be scary to have happen in breast tissue....

Would it be better for a diabetic to ingest this as it has improved benefits for glucose tolerance. Though I also suffer with hayfever I wonder if this is safe for me to try 

[Stevenator_]

I actually came here to post this very question. I’m glad that Mel was able to cover these points much better than I. Great question, Mel!