[Siman234]

Hi, wanted to ask some stuff regarding progesterone cream.

I've been on estrogen injections for a couple of months now, and hrt for 2 years, and I'm finally trying to move progesterone into my plan. The issue is I'm doing it all diy, and I've been unable to source micronized progesterone to put under the tongue. (If anyone could point me in the direction of some, that'd be greatly appreciated.)
I'm aware of administering rectally, but I'd prefer not to for personal reasons, although it would work if needed.

Now as of right now, I have a lotion can that has 20mg progesterone from wild yams per pump, and I want to use this to get started on progesterone to capitalize off of a receptor reset that may start another period of growth.

However, I have absolutely no idea where the best place to put the cream on is, or what the best period to use with it is.
All the methods of doing it I've heard are as follows:

1. In rotating low-fat sites around the body, but never the breast
2. On the upper breast only
3. Everywhere on the breast except the aerola
4. Everywhere on the breast

And as for periods to use, I've heard:

1. 16 days on, 14 off (Monthly)
2. 6 days on, 1 day off (Weekly)
3. Continuous

And as for dosing, that seems to be one pump per day, but I've also heard of someone putting two 20mg pumps on both breasts (4 pumps total) per day. 


The main confusion comes from whether it's wise to put progesterone cream on your aerola. One piece of info says doing so can stunt overall breast growth, while another says it can promote growth regardless of the aerola and not impinge on the rest of the breast. https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=30982

Dosing is yet another question when applied directly to the chest due to the possible known risk in breast cancer from the (if I remember correctly) lymphatic system being unable to drain excess progesterone out.

However, applying to the breast seems like it would give more progesterone to the place that matters, the breast tissue. Does that mean an adequate cream dosage to the breast would result in the same level of progesterone in breast tissue as a natal woman?

I'm currently experimenting with slathering all over the breast, and doing one pump total per day. I'm observing my feelings, and also watching my breasts. 

Right now with this alone, I feel like I'm going through puberty again. I'm emotional and moody and tired and all over the place. Nipples do feel a bit more sensitive 24/7 and are a good bit bigger. My aerola are slightly bigger. My chest feels firmer and has a deeper soreness that feels less like before, which is to say a pinching feeling that quickly left, and more like a deep soreness and ache that will persist for a bit after I grab it and appear during the day.

Has anyone had experience using progesterone cream as their only progesterone source?

[Avign0n4090]

Hi, wanted to ask some stuff regarding progesterone cream.

I've been on estrogen injections for a couple of months now, and hrt for 2 years, and I'm finally trying to move progesterone into my plan. The issue is I'm doing it all diy, and I've been unable to source micronized progesterone to put under the tongue. (If anyone could point me in the direction of some, that'd be greatly appreciated.)
I'm aware of administering rectally, but I'd prefer not to for personal reasons, although it would work if needed.

Now as of right now, I have a lotion can that has 20mg progesterone from wild yams per pump, and I want to use this to get started on progesterone to capitalize off of a receptor reset that may start another period of growth.

However, I have absolutely no idea where the best place to put the cream on is, or what the best period to use with it is.
All the methods of doing it I've heard are as follows:

1. In rotating low-fat sites around the body, but never the breast
2. On the upper breast only
3. Everywhere on the breast except the aerola
4. Everywhere on the breast

And as for periods to use, I've heard:

1. 16 days on, 14 off (Monthly)
2. 6 days on, 1 day off (Weekly)
3. Continuous

And as for dosing, that seems to be one pump per day, but I've also heard of someone putting two 20mg pumps on both breasts (4 pumps total) per day. 


The main confusion comes from whether it's wise to put progesterone cream on your aerola. One piece of info says doing so can stunt overall breast growth, while another says it can promote growth regardless of the aerola and not impinge on the rest of the breast. https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=30982

Dosing is yet another question when applied directly to the chest due to the possible known risk in breast cancer from the (if I remember correctly) lymphatic system being unable to drain excess progesterone out.

However, applying to the breast seems like it would give more progesterone to the place that matters, the breast tissue. Does that mean an adequate cream dosage to the breast would result in the same level of progesterone in breast tissue as a natal woman?

I'm currently experimenting with slathering all over the breast, and doing one pump total per day. I'm observing my feelings, and also watching my breasts. 

Right now with this alone, I feel like I'm going through puberty again. I'm emotional and moody and tired and all over the place. Nipples do feel a bit more sensitive 24/7 and are a good bit bigger. My aerola are slightly bigger. My chest feels firmer and has a deeper soreness that feels less like before, which is to say a pinching feeling that quickly left, and more like a deep soreness and ache that will persist for a bit after I grab it and appear during the day.

Has anyone had experience using progesterone cream as their only progesterone source?

Following, as I have these questions, and more!

I've gotten 200 mg/pump Progesterone cream from Otokonoko Pharmacy, and have tried using it daily as one pump over each entire breast for a few weeks, or as a single pump spread just on nipples/areaolas areas for a few weeks.  I am also taking 200 mg P rectally daily.

While my breasts have slightly been getting larger, not sure if either type of P cream application or the rectal dosage is doing anything, and am starting to believe that it's just my Monotherapy E (3.2 mg/week of subq EEn) doing anything.

While I have gotten fairly large nipples (that seem to normally be engorged lately), my areolas after 4 years on MTF HRT are still male-sized, and looking for something to get them to enlarge.

I've tried Royal Jelly some recently, and while it does make and keep my nipples hard and itchy...I'm kinda thinking it's not so much growth, as a reaction (allergic?) to the jelly, as I got some on my breast skin outside of the nipple/areola area, and it got a rash-looking area, so have stopped it for a few days and will restart and try it more later.

[Siman234]

Following, as I have these questions, and more!

I've gotten 200 mg/pump Progesterone cream from Otokonoko Pharmacy, and have tried using it daily as one pump over each entire breast for a few weeks, or as a single pump spread just on nipples/areaolas areas for a few weeks.  I am also taking 200 mg P rectally daily.

While my breasts have slightly been getting larger, not sure if either type of P cream application or the rectal dosage is doing anything, and am starting to believe that it's just my Monotherapy E (3.2 mg/week of subq EEn) doing anything.

While I have gotten fairly large nipples (that seem to normally be engorged lately), my areolas after 4 years on MTF HRT are still male-sized, and looking for something to get them to enlarge.

I've tried Royal Jelly some recently, and while it does make and keep my nipples hard and itchy...I'm kinda thinking it's not so much growth, as a reaction (allergic?) to the jelly, as I got some on my breast skin outside of the nipple/areola area, and it got a rash-looking area, so have stopped it for a few days and will restart and try it more later.

Good to know this may help more people than just me!
I'm not checked out on the progesterone science but to my knowledge, progesterone mainly functions as a way to increase side branching of the lobules that would increase overall breast volume outwards, instead of what estrogen does, which is promote growth forwards, projection.
I think the main concern with using more is reports about excess creams applied to the chest increasing cancer risk, but I admit I can't find any relevant studies about this.

[Lotus]

Hi Siman, 

Slathering Progesterone cream is using too much. An ⅛ to ¼ tsp is basically all you need per breast, plus you don't need to use it every day. In a 7 period you chose a 3 or 4 application period, and preferably applied at bedtime because progesterone has mild sedative quality, not like the oral pill has though. The wild yam you're using has diosgenin, which stimulates estradiol, you'll need USP micronized progesterone cream. As it stands the diosgenin is compromising your estrogen receptors in your breasts. 

It was pointed out by Lotus a while back that areolas actually do have progesterone receptors present

This is true, breast buds aka T.E.B's (terminal end buds) have estrogen and progesterone receptors located in their structure. TEB's are super important during all phases of breast growth but critical in the initial phase of breast growth. 

 Is it wise to put progesterone cream on your areola?

If you're just using a PC, use it for the breasts only, too much can be anti-estrogen. It's up to you whether you want to use PC on your areolas or not, I tried it and didn't like the change in color by using PC on my areolas (too light in color)

 However, applying to the breast seems like it would give more progesterone to the place that matters, the breast tissue. Does that mean an adequate cream dosage to the breast would result in the same level of progesterone in breast tissue as a natal woman?

Good question, in the male breast there's more progesterone receptors than androgen receptors, but....progesterone is a precursor of androgens so what does that tell you Sounds like you're on the fence on oral P4 (progesterone). Personally, I don't know if I saw that much of a difference between the pill or the cream...and that includes taking the pill orally or rectally, or taking a dual version of P4 (oral/rectal) simultaneously, but that's me, everyone's different.

MSM helps to restore what progesterone destroys during its protein metabolism. MSM also stimulates GH (growth hormone)

There's a difference between USP progesterone and wild yam progesterone. USP progesterone is bioidentical (as in made by humans) as opposed to wild yam made in a lab. WY isn't progestative, apologies. Though in the absence of using estradiol it helps with aveolargenesis (ductal growth).
___________________________________________

Here's some research I put together based on science literature. Progesterone suppresses activation and crosstalk between PR (progesterone receptor) and prolactin/Stat5 signaling to inhibit milk protein gene expression. These changes are reflected in reduced activation of JAK2 and PAK1, resulting in downregulation of pSTAT5.

However, MSM stimulates the activation of the Jak2/STAT5 signaling pathway to help secrete milk protein. MSM also stimulates  GH (growth hormone) induced activation of Jak2/STAT5b and prolactin production.

Why is this important?, progesterone downregulates the Jak2/STAT5 pathway that inhibits milk proteins and affect terminal end buds (TEB's which are the branch like structures that fill out breasts) growth and alveologenesis. Taking MSM helps to restore what progesterone destroys during its protein metabolism. We also learned progesterone is catabolic to protein expression in breast tissue. Now we can address this catabolism (breakdown of proteins) by adding amino acids to the mix...possibly tyrosine and proline to strengthen the protein loss. Or possibly consuming more protein in our diet.
______________________________________________
Regulation of the JAK2-STAT5 Pathway by Signaling Molecules in the Mammary Gland
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33282878/
Scribble promotes alveologenesis in the pregnant mammary gland for milk productionScribble promotes alveologenesis in the pregnant mammary gland for milk production
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32213656/
Prolactin regulates ZNT2 expression through the JAK2/STAT5 signaling pathway in mammary cells
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19494234/
Jak2 Is an Essential Tyrosine Kinase Involved in Pregnancy-Mediated Development of Mammary Secretory Epithelium
https://academic.oup.com/mend/article/16...ogin=false

[Avign0n4090]

Thanks, Lotus...

I guess I'm confused about where/how to get creams with USP Progesterone vs. the bio-identical, micronized version using yams?  I know I searched in past for capsules (100 or 200 mg) that were NOT made from yams, and never could find anything, and have read that the P made from Yams is bio-identical to human progesterone?

Thanks!

[Siman234]

Ok this is all interesting...

Slathering Progesterone cream is using too much. An ⅛ to ¼ tsp is basically all you need per breast, plus you don't need to use it every day. In a 7 period you chose a 3 or 4 application period, and preferably applied at bedtime because progesterone has mild sedative quality, not like the oral pill has though. The wild yam you're using has diosgenin, which stimulates estradiol, you'll need USP micronized progesterone cream. As it stands the diosgenin is compromising your estrogen receptors in your breasts.

This is actually good to know because it means one can will last far longer. The note about needing to look for USP is also very important. Wasn't sure about the difference.

If you're just using a PC, use it for the breasts only, too much can be anti-estrogen. It's up to you whether you want to use PC on your areolas or not, I tried it and didn't like the change in color by using PC on my areolas (too light in color)

Does this mean too much cream elsewhere on the body can be anti-estrogenic around the whole body? Either way, good to know putting it on the areola is an option. I'll have to experiment with it. It seems to have made my nipples larger, so it may be worth trying more.

Good question, in the male breast there's more progesterone receptors than androgen receptors, but....progesterone is a precursor of androgens so what does that tell you Sounds like you're on the fence on oral P4 (progesterone). Personally, I don't know if I saw that much of a difference between the pill or the cream...and that includes taking the pill orally or rectally, or taking a dual version of P4 (oral/rectal) simultaneously, but that's me, everyone's different.

I'm not opposed to oral progesterone, I'm opposed to rectal progesterone for personal health reasons. Interesting to know cream had about the same effect for you...



MSM helps to restore what progesterone destroys during its protein metabolism. MSM also stimulates GH (growth hormone)

Taking MSM helps to restore what progesterone destroys during its protein metabolism. We also learned progesterone is catabolic to protein expression in breast tissue. Now we can address this catabolism (breakdown of proteins) by adding amino acids to the mix...possibly tyrosine and proline to strengthen the protein loss. Or possibly consuming more protein in our diet.

Interesting to note how progesterone affects protein. I've been adding protein to my diet for health anyways, so that should help with this.


Well, I guess I'll go look for a USP Progesterone Cream and go from there. Thanks for all the feedback! I'll try smaller doses of USP Progesterone Cream to the breast 4 days a week and go from there. I'll maybe try oral progesterone next year, but we'll see.

[Siman234]

Thanks, Lotus...

I guess I'm confused about where/how to get creams with USP Progesterone vs. the bio-identical, micronized version using yams?  I know I searched in past for capsules (100 or 200 mg) that were NOT made from yams, and never could find anything, and have read that the P made from Yams is bio-identical to human progesterone?

Thanks!

This is a good question because there's a few products I've seen around claiming different things.

This says "USP derived from Soy."

This one I have says "Progesterone Micronized USP from Wild Yams."

And this one just says "Micronized USP Progesterone"... and, oh, it's Smoky Mountain Naturals. Lotus, haven't you recommended this brand in the past?
Did some old searches. It seems to be. Is this what you'd recommend for a bio-identical progesterone cream?
They seem to have a second progesterone cream different from this clearly labelled as Wild Yams, so maybe this is what we're after.

[Avign0n4090]

Thanks, Lotus...

I guess I'm confused about where/how to get creams with USP Progesterone vs. the bio-identical, micronized version using yams?  I know I searched in past for capsules (100 or 200 mg) that were NOT made from yams, and never could find anything, and have read that the P made from Yams is bio-identical to human progesterone?

Thanks!

This is a good question because there's a few products I've seen around claiming different things.

This says "USP derived from Soy."

This one I have says "Progesterone Micronized USP from Wild Yams."

And this one just says "Micronized USP Progesterone"... and, oh, it's Smoky Mountain Naturals. Lotus, haven't you recommended this brand in the past?
Did some old searches. It seems to be. Is this what you'd recommend for a bio-identical progesterone cream?
They seem to have a second progesterone cream different from this clearly labelled as Wild Yams, so maybe this is what we're after.

From what I understand from searching and reading various things...

Most USP Progesterone started out as yams, and were processed to get the pure, bio-identical, micronized Progesterone out of them for use in other things.  However, there are some supplements that are using a component of yams, which evidently has some or is similar to USP Progesterone, just unprocessed, and those supplements are not nearly as strong as the ones containing USP Progesterone.  This is probably adding confusion as I think it all, or at least much of it, starts as yams--USP Progesterone is never going to be made from any human components.

[Siman234]

From what I understand from searching and reading various things...

Most USP Progesterone started out as yams, and were processed to get the pure, bio-identical, micronized Progesterone out of them for use in other things.  However, there are some supplements that are using a component of yams, which evidently has some or is similar to USP Progesterone, just unprocessed, and those supplements are not nearly as strong as the ones containing USP Progesterone.  This is probably adding confusion as I think it all, or at least much of it, starts as yams--USP Progesterone is never going to be made from any human components.

It seems like a mess, but for now, I'll just order the Smoky Mountain stuff since they have two progesterone cream products, one clearly labelled as Wild Yam and the other not, and because Lotus has recommended it for the past few years it seems.

[Lotus]

Apologies, I was unavailable yesterday. So it looks like Smokey Mountain changed their formulations, and not for better, what a shame.