[VenusJunas]

Hi everyone,

I'm a biological male, Genderfluid, I usually weigh around 120lbs & am 5'10"
I'm new to this but here are my goals/wants:

• I want to minimize the effects on my male functions/parts (as best as I can)
  
• I want to (for now) get to at least a large A cup, at most medium B cup
  
• I want to learn more about the all the substances that can go into this, what they do, their possible effects, and how to take them
  

I have read some other threads, both on this forum and others, including a couple of Lotus' threads, but I'm still petty confused on effects & dosages.

If I end up losing an inch, or even have less body hair I don't mind (in fact, less body hair would honestly be a plus)

Thanks in advance
Venus (Ian)

[VenusJunas]

Amendment to above;

I've known about being Genderfluid since 2020(roughly mid-late), when I actually learned about the Genderfluid identity term(?) I think I said that right XD

But that said, I've wanted, in a least some way, to be female since I was in like, 3rd or 4th grade. And it's carried with me since & be very prominent within the past 2 years and of course this year. Although I have, I've also loved having my male parts/being male just the same, hence why I had mentioned what I did in the post.

Just wanted to get that out there ^^

[Happyme]

Hi Venus.
welcome.

Most of the breast is fat, and at 120/5'10 i dont think there is much fat on your body.
Depending on how old you are, growing breasts and having male function is difficult to impossible.
So your progress will be very very slow.

to spare your boy parts, you can try massage and Noogleberry, but you need some fat.

Bobbi

[Zhuzhu]

Hi everyone,

I'm a biological male, Genderfluid, I usually weigh around 120lbs & am 5'10"
I'm new to this but here are my goals/wants:

• I want to minimize the effects on my male functions/parts (as best as I can)
  
• I want to (for now) get to at least a large A cup, at most medium B cup
  
• I want to learn more about the all the substances that can go into this, what they do, their possible effects, and how to take them
  

I have read some other threads, both on this forum and others, including a couple of Lotus' threads, but I'm still petty confused on effects & dosages.

If I end up losing an inch, or even have less body hair I don't mind (in fact, less body hair would honestly be a plus)

Thanks in advance
Venus (Ian)

I find I become more attracted to males since I started this journey but as shy as I am i kept it to myself.  But I am more of an objective observer.  If you lose functionality of your penis you may want to talk to a doctor for a cialis perscription. The generic one is cheap but helps me.

[Demon Lord Etna]

Hello,  Sestra Venus.

I'm happy to hear you have taken steps on your journey to feminize. 

The best advice I can give is to consult your doctor.  Natural best enhancement involves a very slow process of slowing neutralizing your masculine hormones (testosterone) and replace them with effeminate hormones (estrogen).  You are basically trying to undo boy puberty and start over as a girl instead; something your body is not going to want to cooperate with.   Any time you want to make that drastic of a change, you should consult with a trained medical professional in order to avoid serious risks. 

That being said, this is an incredibly slow process, particularly if you're trying to do it with herbs.   As HappyMe said, maintaining male functionality without medical intervention may be quite difficult.  Again, you have to undo puberty.  All humans have mammary glands, but testosterone, which is why male function functions, hinders development of breasts.   It's not what your body is designed to do on its own.   It's not impossible (Iwas straining B-cups, almost C, when my wife and I conceived our youngest child), but it is rare.   You will suffer some loss of your ability to attain and maintain an erection.  It's just something that is going to happen if you try to feminize naturally.

A big point to remember is that none of what you read here will be medical fact.   It is almost all anecdotal.  There aren't a lot of prolonged studies on men deliberately trying to grow female breasts.  You are going to go through a lot of trial and error.  You'll add one thing, stop another, increase or decrease something else.   You have to tweak your regimen to suit your exact needs.  Some have great success with fenugreek or saw palmetto.   Others need to go straight to something much stronger before they feel any change. 

My last recommendation for now is that you need to feel.  Once you start to feel better about yourself and your body, consider cutting back or stopping.  Once you start growing, there is no turning back without surgery.   You can't ungrow breasts.  Only do as much as you need to find the person you want to be.

[Lotus]

Hi Venus, 

Here's some encouraging nbe news based on science…and not anecdotal as others would have you believe, all the relevant science is posted in the X-thread. But good lord, after reading demon lord's assessment of nbe that would any new person looking for information run for the hills, NBE doesn't have to be difficult or impossible if you have the right information at your disposal. I get the fact of setting realistic expectations, but to say it's all anecdotal (repeatedly) is misplaced. 

• Picture an androgen signal sent in circulation by the pituitary/hypothalamus axis and makes its way into circulation (blood supply, or other routes…testes). Eventually locating an androgen receptor, when it does it'll cross over cell membranes and into the cytoplasm...now if the androgen molecule doesn't see a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor it'll naturally want to synthesize to DHT before it makes its way into the nucleus, and once inside the mitochondria the deed is done, DHT won. 
  

So, why is this important? I'll tell you why  …changing the path of androgens inside the androgen receptor changes the ratio of androgens to estrogens via aromatase. And this way we improve our success of breast growth.

So what's the magic ratio?, in normal males the ratio is roughly 85% T to 15% E. If you're a numbers person (like me) you'll see how it makes sense using an anti androgen that inhibits DHT by at least 90%, but, as you progress through nbe/hrt this number comes down and reverses that male T ratio to one of which is favorable for breast growth. For instance, you've nukes your junk to oblivion and now the ratio is more like 85% estradiol to 15% testosterone. But...say we want sexual function and still want to feminize, okay, than that ratio will look like this:

45% T
55% E2

Considering that anything below 50ng/dL testosterone reference range for transwomen (per WPATH SOC8) is considered chemical castration, but still, folks below this still range have sex (with some help). Even post-op orchi patients have sex (with some help) and are able to climax, speaking from experience as I am one of those. 

If you're over your bmi chances are you have stored estrogen in your fat cells, if you're under your bmi you won't have any estrogen to draw from. So, whatever estrogen or fat you'll need for breast growth will need to be used immediately. If it's nbe it'll have to be PM, and PM will automatically add 15 to 20% triglyceride to your metabolism, so factor that in. Starting slow at 500mg is wise, though I'm extremely concerned about weight and bone mineralization right off the bat. Having less body hair indicate you have too much? meaning an androgen issue?, so any additional information would be helpful, e.g. recent lab tests

Greetings,

I posted this study in 2015 to show the importance of having progesterone in your program. The takeaway here is that without progesterone while taking estradiol and anti-androgen breasts don't mature. Meaning the alveoli, breast ducts and breast buds don't develop to tanner stage 5 potential.

In another study an assay of human male hormone receptors in breast tissue found the following (and this in regards to each being equal to 100%, not the total of the three being @ 100%, follow?).

Breasts
Estrogen receptors @ 94%
Progesterone receptors @ 93%
Androgen receptors @ 57%

So, in human male testes we have the following productions:

Testes
Testosterone @ 85%
Estradiol @ 15%

Anti-androgens inhibit T/DHT between 30-90%. When T is lowered to 50ng/dL and below it is considered chemical castration.

So this is how my thinking goes:

Use progesterone cream to reduce T/DHT in breast tissue.

And in the testes reduce that testosterone from 85% to 5 to 10% using an effective anti-androgen that inhibits @ 80%.

Simple, right?. I believe one could tweak these numbers to how they wish to proceed. Meaning some don't want breast development while others do. We just massage these numbers to create a small imbalance favoring feminization but no breast development, I would do that by just using progesterone cream on the breast...no PM (or estradiol) and an anti-androgen titrated to 45-50% or flip the script geared towards breast growth, and titrate even more for the full feminization.

How's all this for anecdotal  

[Mishelle]

Hello,  Sestra Venus.

I'm happy to hear you have taken steps on your journey to feminize. 

The best advice I can give is to consult your doctor.  Natural best enhancement involves a very slow process of slowing neutralizing your masculine hormones (testosterone) and replace them with effeminate hormones (estrogen).  You are basically trying to undo boy puberty and start over as a girl instead; something your body is not going to want to cooperate with.   Any time you want to make that drastic of a change, you should consult with a trained medical professional in order to avoid serious risks. 

That being said, this is an incredibly slow process, particularly if you're trying to do it with herbs.   As HappyMe said, maintaining male functionality without medical intervention may be quite difficult.  Again, you have to undo puberty.  All humans have mammary glands, but testosterone, which is why male function functions, hinders development of breasts.   It's not what your body is designed to do on its own.   It's not impossible (Iwas straining B-cups, almost C, when my wife and I conceived our youngest child), but it is rare.   You will suffer some loss of your ability to attain and maintain an erection.  It's just something that is going to happen if you try to feminize naturally.

A big point to remember is that none of what you read here will be medical fact.   It is almost all anecdotal.  There aren't a lot of prolonged studies on men deliberately trying to grow female breasts.  You are going to go through a lot of trial and error.  You'll add one thing, stop another, increase or decrease something else.   You have to tweak your regimen to suit your exact needs.  Some have great success with fenugreek or saw palmetto.   Others need to go straight to something much stronger before they feel any change. 

My last recommendation for now is that you need to feel.  Once you start to feel better about yourself and your body, consider cutting back or stopping.  Once you start growing, there is no turning back without surgery.   You can't ungrow breasts.  Only do as much as you need to find the person you want to be.

Hi Venus, 

Here's some encouraging nbe news based on science…and not anecdotal as others would have you believe, all the relevant science is posted in the X-thread. But good lord, after reading demon lord's assessment of nbe that would any new person looking for information run for the hills, NBE doesn't have to be difficult or impossible if you have the right information at your disposal. I get the fact of setting realistic expectations, but to say it's all anecdotal (repeatedly) is misplaced. 

• Picture an androgen signal sent in circulation by the pituitary/hypothalamus axis and makes its way into circulation (blood supply, or other routes…testes). Eventually locating an androgen receptor, when it does it'll cross over cell membranes and into the cytoplasm...now if the androgen molecule doesn't see a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor it'll naturally want to synthesize to DHT before it makes its way into the nucleus, and once inside the mitochondria the deed is done, DHT won. 
  

So, why is this important? I'll tell you why  …changing the path of androgens inside the androgen receptor changes the ratio of androgens to estrogens via aromatase. And this way we improve our success of breast growth.

So what's the magic ratio?, in normal males the ratio is roughly 85% T to 15% E. If you're a numbers person (like me) you'll see how it makes sense using an anti androgen that inhibits DHT by at least 90%, but, as you progress through nbe/hrt this number comes down and reverses that male T ratio to one of which is favorable for breast growth. For instance, you've nukes your junk to oblivion and now the ratio is more like 85% estradiol to 15% testosterone. But...say we want sexual function and still want to feminize, okay, than that ratio will look like this:

45% T
55% E2

Considering that anything below 50ng/dL testosterone reference range for transwomen (per WPATH SOC8) is considered chemical castration, but still, folks below this still range have sex (with some help). Even post-op orchi patients have sex (with some help) and are able to climax, speaking from experience as I am one of those. 

If you're over your bmi chances are you have stored estrogen in your fat cells, if you're under your bmi you won't have any estrogen to draw from. So, whatever estrogen or fat you'll need for breast growth will need to be used immediately. If it's nbe it'll have to be PM, and PM will automatically add 15 to 20% triglyceride to your metabolism, so factor that in. Starting slow at 500mg is wise, though I'm extremely concerned about weight and bone mineralization right off the bat. Having less body hair indicate you have too much? meaning an androgen issue?, so any additional information would be helpful, e.g. recent lab tests

Greetings,

I posted this study in 2015 to show the importance of having progesterone in your program. The takeaway here is that without progesterone while taking estradiol and anti-androgen breasts don't mature. Meaning the alveoli, breast ducts and breast buds don't develop to tanner stage 5 potential.

In another study an assay of human male hormone receptors in breast tissue found the following (and this in regards to each being equal to 100%, not the total of the three being @ 100%, follow?).

Breasts
Estrogen receptors @ 94%
Progesterone receptors @ 93%
Androgen receptors @ 57%

So, in human male testes we have the following productions:

Testes
Testosterone @ 85%
Estradiol @ 15%

Anti-androgens inhibit T/DHT between 30-90%. When T is lowered to 50ng/dL and below it is considered chemical castration.

So this is how my thinking goes:

Use progesterone cream to reduce T/DHT in breast tissue.

And in the testes reduce that testosterone from 85% to 5 to 10% using an effective anti-androgen that inhibits @ 80%.

Simple, right?. I believe one could tweak these numbers to how they wish to proceed. Meaning some don't want breast development while others do. We just massage these numbers to create a small imbalance favoring feminization but no breast development, I would do that by just using progesterone cream on the breast...no PM (or estradiol) and an anti-androgen titrated to 45-50% or flip the script geared towards breast growth, and titrate even more for the full feminization.

How's all this for anecdotal  

Hi Lotus, your knowledge astounds me, and I sort of got the gist of your post. I would love to grow female breasts,or ones that could pass as female. I am a newbie who has dabbled in NBE, had medical issues, don't know what really caused the issues, but I am not going to let it set me back for what I want to do and desire. I do have some restrictions at the moment as to what I can and can't do but I'm taking steps to address these issues.
My question is I am taking MSM 3gm per day, Reishi 2 per day, Hops 2 per day, will start progesterone cream when it arrives, I noogle 3-4 times 1hr(using water,no blisters,even pressure, very relaxing and good results) also massage regularly and use supple nips . Also take Calcium,D3,Vitamin C and Protein powder, eat a reasonably healthy diet.
In your opinion will this help me to increase estrogen, promote budding and breast growth, I am 66 and I'm pretty sure my T levels are low but find out today for sure from my GP. Cheers
Mishelle

[Lotus]

Hi Lotus, your knowledge astounds me, and I sort of got the gist of your post. I would love to grow female breasts,or ones that could pass as female. I am a newbie who has dabbled in NBE, had medical issues, don't know what really caused the issues, but I am not going to let it set me back for what I want to do and desire. I do have some restrictions at the moment as to what I can and can't do but I'm taking steps to address these issues. 
My question is I am taking MSM 3gm per day, Reishi 2 per day, Hops 2 per day, will start progesterone cream when it arrives, I noogle 3-4 times 1hr(using water,no blisters,even pressure, very relaxing and good results) also massage regularly and use supple nips . Also take Calcium,D3,Vitamin C and Protein powder, eat a reasonably healthy diet. 
In your opinion will this help me to increase estrogen, promote budding and breast growth, I am 66 and I'm pretty sure my T levels are low but find out today for sure from my GP. Cheers
Mishelle

Hi Michelle, thank you. 

Okay thanks for the background, do you have a program page started? That's a big help to have so people can track your progress. That's a lot of noogling how is the hops working? I gave it a go and it didn't work, the science is amazing but it doesn't live up to the hype in my experience. Fenugreek on the other hand might be a better choice for you, and from a health standpoint it lowers blood sugars, helps lowers insulin levels (diabetes) and raises estradiol too. All in all a better profile for NBE. 

I look forward to seeing you, L 

[Mishelle]

Hi Lotus, your knowledge astounds me, and I sort of got the gist of your post. I would love to grow female breasts,or ones that could pass as female. I am a newbie who has dabbled in NBE, had medical issues, don't know what really caused the issues, but I am not going to let it set me back for what I want to do and desire. I do have some restrictions at the moment as to what I can and can't do but I'm taking steps to address these issues. 
My question is I am taking MSM 3gm per day, Reishi 2 per day, Hops 2 per day, will start progesterone cream when it arrives, I noogle 3-4 times 1hr(using water,no blisters,even pressure, very relaxing and good results) also massage regularly and use supple nips . Also take Calcium,D3,Vitamin C and Protein powder, eat a reasonably healthy diet. 
In your opinion will this help me to increase estrogen, promote budding and breast growth, I am 66 and I'm pretty sure my T levels are low but find out today for sure from my GP. Cheers
Mishelle

Hi Michelle, thank you. 

Okay thanks for the background, do you have a program page started? That's a big help to have so people can track your progress. That's a lot of noogling how is the hops working? I gave it a go and it didn't work, the science is amazing but it doesn't live up to the hype in my experience. Fenugreek on the other hand might be a better choice for you, and from a health standpoint it lowers blood sugars, helps lowers insulin levels (diabetes) and raises estradiol too. All in all a better profile for NBE. 

I look forward to seeing you, L 

Hi Lotus, thanks for the reply it's greatly appreciated. I probably should have put 3-4 times a week for Noogling, it sort of reads daily,I wish as much as I enjoy it and the results just don't have the spare time.
In regards to Hops I didn't notice much (better in Beer but I no longer drink) , the Reishi and MSM were good, had a few tingling sensations in the nipples, a little bit sensitive.Unfortunately I've had to suspend those ,Doctors orders, could be a bleed risk as I'm on Blood thinners for a DVT , getting old is horrible all this unwanted shit that happens. Still have to have my Testosterone levels done, they didn't do them.
I don't think I can take Fenugreek because of the bleed risk. But thank you for the suggestion.
I would like to meet someone in a similar situation as mine regarding taking Herbals, I love Vitamins, herbals and it's so frustrating not being able to take them.
I may be limited  to Noogling, massage, and a good estrogen diet.
I haven't set up a Program page yet but I will.
Thank you very much Mishelle

[Gabrielle]

I think a couple of you ladies who help others on here. Should really consider if you are in the right jobs. As your clearly doing the impossible of what the mainstream says you can do.
I think you should be working at a gender clinic. As your knowledge. Is second to none