[EverJosie]

I wonder how do you go about combining the two? Mix up with some vodka theen? Lol

If you want the strongest anti-androgen combination go with reishi that inhibits DHT@80% and green tea extract (GTE/EGCG@45%) that inhibits DHT@98%....nothing else compares or competes. Backed by science. 

That's in herbal supplements form.

YOu could take both but stacking has no effect, a peer reviewed study came out showing that neither stacking or taking more of a dht supplement makes it more potent. Just take the max/ take what works for you. Just dont bother taking more or stacking. Saves you not only money but your liver will thank you.

[Lotus]

I wonder how do you go about combining the two? Mix up with some vodka theen? Lol

If you want the strongest anti-androgen combination go with reishi that inhibits DHT@80% and green tea extract (GTE/EGCG@45%) that inhibits DHT@98%....nothing else compares or competes. Backed by science. 

That's in herbal supplements form.

YOu could take both but stacking has no effect, a peer reviewed study came out showing that neither stacking or taking more of a dht supplement makes it more potent. Just take the max/ take what works for you. Just dont bother taking more or stacking. Saves you not only money but your liver will thank you.

Fair point, though most people here don't believe one supplement gets the job done based on there own personal experience, and i dont blame them because supplements are 100% guaranteed. Why not include the evidence?, and you're evidence on Saw Palmetto.

But if you noticed astaxanthin and Saw Palmetto are used together in the same study i provided, so i'm not buying the stacking claim here.

[Lotus]

 

 Analytical Accuracy and Reliability of Commonly Used Nutritional Supplements in Prostate Disease

• Andrew H. Feifer

, 

• Neil E. Fleshner

, and 

• Laurence Klotz

Abstract

Purpose:

We determine the analytical accuracy and reliability of commonly used nutritional supplements for prostate disease by comparing the amounts of active ingredients of several brands of vitamin E, vitamin D, selenium, lycopene and saw palmetto. We also compared the amounts of active compound in different lots of the same brand to determine the consistency of the manufacturing process.

Materials and Methods:

Samples purchased at pharmacies and specialty stores were sent for independent chemical analysis. The measured dose was compared to the stated dose on the product label. Analysis of variance was performed to test for significance in interlot reliability.

Results:

Vitamin E (7 samples) and selenium (5) were within a range of −41% to +57% and −19% to +23% of the stated dosage, respectively. All vitamin D brands (4 samples) were within 15% of the stated dose. Saw palmetto (6 samples) were within a range −97% to +140% of the stated dosages with 3 containing less than 20% of the stated dosages. Lycopene brands were between −38% and +143% of stated dosages. Among the reliability assays 1 of 3 brands of vitamin E, 1 of 2 brands of selenium and 1 of 2 brands of saw palmetto demonstrated statistical differences in interlot dosage (p <0.0055, approximate 20% to 25% differences in dose). The 1 assayed form of vitamin D was reliable between lots.

Conclusions:

Commonly used nutritional supplements for prostate disease vary widely in measured dose. Saw palmetto demonstrated tremendous variability with some samples containing virtually no active ingredients. In contrast, the more regulated substances we measured, such as vitamins and minerals, demonstrated less variation.
https://www.auajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1...%2964850-1

[Billie]

Hello I discovered a supplement of high T can grow breasts and estrogen. We see this in body builders. The testis can atrophy due to the T supplements so both T and E are high but Estrogen can win in time.

[EverJosie]

I wonder how do you go about combining the two? Mix up with some vodka theen? Lol

If you want the strongest anti-androgen combination go with reishi that inhibits DHT@80% and green tea extract (GTE/EGCG@45%) that inhibits DHT@98%....nothing else compares or competes. Backed by science. 

That's in herbal supplements form.

YOu could take both but stacking has no effect, a peer reviewed study came out showing that neither stacking or taking more of a dht supplement makes it more potent. Just take the max/ take what works for you. Just dont bother taking more or stacking. Saves you not only money but your liver will thank you.

Fair point, though most people here don't believe one supplement gets the job done based on there own personal experience, and i dont blame them because supplements are 100% guaranteed. Why not include the evidence?, and you're evidence on Saw Palmetto.

But if you noticed astaxanthin and Saw Palmetto are used together in the same study i provided, so i'm not buying the stacking claim here.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24067389/

Above is about the Saw Palmetto on fatty acid

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21954478/

Above is taking more than usual Saw Palmetto

I unfortunatley cant find the one where stacking (natural) DHT blocking supplents has no serum difference to Saw Palmetto. So for now my claim on stacking is disproven lol.

[tanysquirrel]

ok  i am trying to catch up with this thread (halfway through on another separate tab). 

ok while i muddle through the rest of the 80 something pages   i have a few questions regarding dht reduction and what i post below is what i am currently using (about a half a dropper full) :

reishi for dht reduction (how many times  a day? its liquid extract
White peony for aromatization (same thing, how many times a day its also liquid extract)
and SHOULD i also add green tea extract too? does two of the same contradict each other or compete?

For phyto estrogens, i am using Red clover and chinese licorice extract (both liquid). about half a dropper each.

Should i WAIT after taking the white peony and reishi? or can i mix the phyto estrogens extract along with it.  and take all sublingually at once? 

Sorry a lot of questions all bottled up in one post. 

Oh and btw, i know that grapefruit extract upregulates estrogen that is consumed in pill form do you think it would also work with phytoestrogens?  do you think it will upregulate aromatase as well? i couldnt find any info on that. 

In the mean time, back to reading up on this thread. 

Thanks for any reply (hopefully an in depth one).

[Teddy]

I wonder how do you go about combining the two? Mix up with some vodka theen? Lol

If you want the strongest anti-androgen combination go with reishi that inhibits DHT@80% and green tea extract (GTE/EGCG@45%) that inhibits DHT@98%....nothing else compares or competes. Backed by science. 

That's in herbal supplements form.

Regarding extracts, one has also note, that extraction methods, such as solvent used, make a big difference. For instance, Reishi can be extracted with either water or alcohol (or other ) solvent. And my understanding is that due to different solubility of the active ingredients the results will be very different.

Especially regarding RR, I have found from a study that the anti-androgenic effect is from triterpenoids (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16962782/). Those are according to some other sources mainly extracted by organic solvents such as alcohol, while water-based extraction doesn't provide much of them but mainly extracts polysaccharids (which have instead some interesting anti-carcinogenic properties)

[EverJosie]

ok  i am trying to catch up with this thread (halfway through on another separate tab). 

ok while i muddle through the rest of the 80 something pages   i have a few questions regarding dht reduction and what i post below is what i am currently using (about a half a dropper full) :

reishi for dht reduction (how many times  a day? its liquid extract
White peony for aromatization (same thing, how many times a day its also liquid extract)
and SHOULD i also add green tea extract too? does two of the same contradict each other or compete?

For phyto estrogens, i am using Red clover and chinese licorice extract (both liquid). about half a dropper each.

Should i WAIT after taking the white peony and reishi? or can i mix the phyto estrogens extract along with it.  and take all sublingually at once? 

Sorry a lot of questions all bottled up in one post. 

Oh and btw, i know that grapefruit extract upregulates estrogen that is consumed in pill form do you think it would also work with phytoestrogens?  do you think it will upregulate aromatase as well? i couldnt find any info on that. 

In the mean time, back to reading up on this thread. 

Thanks for any reply (hopefully an in depth one).

You shouldnt wait to start blocking and inhibiting DHT. DHT is gonna be your greatest roadblock. For reishi this article explains everything about reishi and its affect. https://perfecthairhealth.com/reishi-mus...hair-loss/ 

"The results were impressive (again). Reishi mushroom extract helped to significantly [i]lower[/i] the weight of the prostates. But interestingly, the lower dose – 1.5mg/kg – was most effective."

The quote above is straight from the article.


When it comes to phyto estrogens, its much more complicated, specifically when it comes down to Estrogen recptors and potency. There are 2 types of recepters; ERAlpha and ERBeta. ERAlpha is gonna be the one you focus on for primary feminine traits(curves, breasts, softer skin, ect) as aposed to ERBeta which has secondary effects. But dont neglect ERBeta, itll be very useful overall.

In my honest opinion, and from what ive done my research on, for ERAlpha, youll need a phyto estrogen that acts like Estradiol, the most potent estrogen, the one that give you the primary physical traits. For that, my honest opiton is taking hop supplements.

Hops are not only shown to be the most potent phyto estrogen yet to activate ERAlpha but act like estradiol. It is 70 times less potent to 17-beta estradiol, but that trully doesnt matter if you take enough. I take hops as my primary from of estrogen. Currently taking 2.5 g of hops a day(2x 620mg 2 times a day). If you go down the hop supplement path, dont bother buying swansons 8-pn, buy a basic hop supplement, in the ranges of 500mg to 700mg. 

Hops become estrogenic due to the conversion process within the bacteria of the digestive tract. Making chemicals called 6-pn and 8-pn, also known as hopien. 

I made a post if you want to see the supplements i am taking. and sorry for the long post.

[Gabrielle]

ok  i am trying to catch up with this thread (halfway through on another separate tab). 

ok while i muddle through the rest of the 80 something pages   i have a few questions regarding dht reduction and what i post below is what i am currently using (about a half a dropper full) :

reishi for dht reduction (how many times  a day? its liquid extract
White peony for aromatization (same thing, how many times a day its also liquid extract)
and SHOULD i also add green tea extract too? does two of the same contradict each other or compete?

For phyto estrogens, i am using Red clover and chinese licorice extract (both liquid). about half a dropper each.

Should i WAIT after taking the white peony and reishi? or can i mix the phyto estrogens extract along with it.  and take all sublingually at once? 

Sorry a lot of questions all bottled up in one post. 

Oh and btw, i know that grapefruit extract upregulates estrogen that is consumed in pill form do you think it would also work with phytoestrogens?  do you think it will upregulate aromatase as well? i couldnt find any info on that. 

In the mean time, back to reading up on this thread. 

Thanks for any reply (hopefully an in depth one).

You shouldnt wait to start blocking and inhibiting DHT. DHT is gonna be your greatest roadblock. For reishi this article explains everything about reishi and its affect. https://perfecthairhealth.com/reishi-mus...hair-loss/ 

"The results were impressive (again). Reishi mushroom extract helped to significantly [i]lower[/i] the weight of the prostates. But interestingly, the lower dose – 1.5mg/kg – was most effective."

The quote above is straight from the article.


When it comes to phyto estrogens, its much more complicated, specifically when it comes down to Estrogen recptors and potency. There are 2 types of recepters; ERAlpha and ERBeta. ERAlpha is gonna be the one you focus on for primary feminine traits(curves, breasts, softer skin, ect) as aposed to ERBeta which has secondary effects. But dont neglect ERBeta, itll be very useful overall.

In my honest opinion, and from what ive done my research on, for ERAlpha, youll need a phyto estrogen that acts like Estradiol, the most potent estrogen, the one that give you the primary physical traits. For that, my honest opiton is taking hop supplements.

Hops are not only shown to be the most potent phyto estrogen yet to activate ERAlpha but act like estradiol. It is 70 times less potent to 17-beta estradiol, but that trully doesnt matter if you take enough. I take hops as my primary from of estrogen. Currently taking 2.5 g of hops a day(2x 620mg 2 times a day). If you go down the hop supplement path, dont bother buying swansons 8-pn, buy a basic hop supplement, in the ranges of 500mg to 700mg. 

Hops become estrogenic due to the conversion process within the bacteria of the digestive tract. Making chemicals called 6-pn and 8-pn, also known as hopien. 

I made a post if you want to see the supplements i am taking. and sorry for the long post.

we all know about hops. from the consumption of mans best friend, which results in moobs.

[Lotus]

ok i am trying to catch up with this thread (halfway through on another separate tab). 

ok while i muddle through the rest of the 80 something pages   i have a few questions regarding dht reduction and what i post below is what i am currently using (about a half a dropper full) :

reishi for dht reduction (how many times  a day? 

its liquid extract
White peony for aromatization (same thing, how many times a day its also liquid extract)


and SHOULD i also add green tea extract too? does two of the same contradict each other or compete?

Sorry a lot of questions all bottled up in one post. 

Hi TMS, someone asked me a similar question (to yours) and this was my response:

Pueraria Mirifica – Awesome for breast growth

Reishi-reishi mushrooms – Significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony – Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Th above is what I've been reading on this thread. My question is: Should one combine PM with both RM AND WP? Does WP & RM not do the same thing? Why take both in a HRT program? Or am I missing something?

Both are similar, however...there's significant differences. From the research I've covered, Reishi Inhibits type I & II 5ar....and WP binds androgen receptors. When I took Reishi I could 4-5 days without needing a shave. Now, on HRT I need a shave within 2 days...and that's with my T and free T being non-existent, so go figure. 

WP needs to be standardized to contain a minimum of 10% Paeoniflorin (solaray has one i believe). Total glucosides of peony (TGP), contains more than 15 components, BUT Paeoniflorin is the most abundant ingredient and NEEDS to be 90% of the total glucosides. 

There's about a gazillion scientific papers on WP and its benefits. I've posted most of what I think is beneficial for NBE here (at BN). In the BN search engine, insert Lotus into the username and check the box for posts (not threads) and you find what I've shared. 

Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO. 

"Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO."

Thank you! I get it. This stuff is very complicated but I'll take both WP & RM on your recommendation.    

Bev

Thanks for any reply (hopefully an in depth one).

The dosage for White Peony that worked for me was 2 grams, make sure you get the highest standardized WP possible.

Reishi- in its own right does feminize, and has an aromatase study, I'd have to find it though. As far as dosage i take mine as tea. Which for me is ¼ teaspoons with my coffee in the morning. In liquid extract or pill form just follow the manufacturer's suggested dosage. 

Honestly though, I'd stick with GTE and reishi. If you want something "NEW and Extraordinary" though pm me and you'll be among a select few I'm sharing it with that blows the door off any known pro-aromatase. 

Someone shared the WP content of Swanson's brand a while back (my apologies to the OP I don't remember who though). White peony (standardized) should bump aromatase 2-3 fold (based on scientific literature) a 30% increase, for myself that means an increase of 60-80 pg/mL blood estradiol, though everybody is different. I believe Life Extension sells a standardized capsule but Swanson full spectrum isn't standardized. I believe it's not standardized (lol, I have a bottle sitting on the shelf too). Here's a few things about WP, or where I think the rubber needs to meet the road, or more to the point finding a suitable WP supplement that contains two compounds: 6'-O-galloyl  and pentagalloylglucose, they bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT. Let's let science solve this puzzle of what WP does for NBE.....which I think we just did. The dose could be less than I calculated earlier if these compounds and the main glycoside 3'-O-galloyl paeoniflorin are present would be estimated at 1 gram. 

Additionally, testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio is also reduced (significantly) by paeoniflorin (white peony). 

In ovaries WP promotes aromatase, (I believe in the breasts too), inhibits DHT in sebum, inhibits prostate cancer cells, (which means it inhibits C17 @ CYP17 P450 enzyme, a strong anti-androgen. The lab dosage was 2 grams (I'll have to double check). Roots contain the highest bioactives.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Androgen modulators from the roots of Paeonia (paeoniae radix) grown and processed in nara prefecture, Japan.
Washida K1, Itoh Y, Iwashita T, Nomoto K.
Abstract
The monoterpene glycoside, 3'-O-galloyl paeoniflorin (1), and four known compounds, 6'-O-galloyl  (2), pentagalloylglucose (3), 6'-O-benzoyl paeoniflorin (4) and 6'-O-galloyl paeoniflorin (5), were isolated from the roots of Paeonia  that had been grown and processed in Nara prefecture, Japan, as androgen modulators. Their structures were elucidated based on spectroscopic analysis. Compounds 2 and 3 showed strong androgen receptor (AR) binding activity (IC(50) values 33.7 and 4.1 microg/ml, respectively), 1, 4 and 5 showed weak activity (20, 31 and 12% at 120 microg/ml, respectively). However, paeoniflorin (6) and albiflorin (7), the structures of which are related to 1, 2, 4 and 5, showed no activity. These results suggested that both the structure of albiflorin and the galloyl moiety are important for 2 to show strong AR binding activity. Furthermore, compounds 1-5 inhibited growth of an androgen-dependent LNCaP-FGC (prostate cancer cell line), and were indicated to be AR antagonists. Compounds 2 and 3 might be candidates as safe, natural anti-androgens.

Testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio was lowered significantly by paeoniflorin, and two compounds, 6'-O-galloyl  and pentagalloylglucose bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT.