[Heaven's Night]

HRT is not "lethal" and herb stuff is not "less lethal" than HRT. Which kind of HRT did you take? Bioidentical estrogen taken transdermally or as injection does not elevate blood clotting factors more than any woman who has naturally high E levels. Orally taken it does as that passes through  liver metabolism and synthetic estrogens are frigging poison compared to the real stuff. Just saying because I don't like these HRT = dangerous af myths being repeated.

Btw, only thing that ever gave me possible DVT symptoms was high dose of PM, never conventional HRT.

It can't be easily stopped, I would go totally insane and my body would function totally wrong if I stopped HRT. But with BO, I think there's something very strange it does because even when on HRT, it does some kind of weird balancing thing that nothing else seems to do. I have no idea what exactly does it, but its very obvious. I noticed it right away back when I started and first few weeks were downright euphoric. I'm not planning on ever stopping taking it if I can, just go on much lower maintenance dose at some point.

The enigmatic point of no return keeps on being repeated again and again... I know something changed around three months in for me, as it everything started to work much faster and much better, similar to how every time I've went up with my dose, body changes have become more rapid. My dose progression was like this: 400mg --> 950mg --> 750mg --> 1000mg --> 1500mg. When I was on lower dose, my breast growth did slow down but not stop, but each time I've bumped it up, so has my growth wnt faster and it appears that the pace it happens on stays the same as long as I keep taking the same dose. 1500mg per day has been said to be the optimal dose and I tend to believe that, I don't know if going even higher would give even better growth but I wouldn't try overdoing this, or anything else either as balance in all things seems to be the key. Interestingly my breast growth just keeps on going and its mostly been quite stable, never gone to a total halt for a very long time now.

I think there is something to this weird stuff about BO. Too many things repeated many times before keep on matching for it to not be so.

[Epeters7507]

HRT is not "lethal" and herb stuff is not "less lethal" than HRT. Which kind of HRT did you take? Bioidentical estrogen taken transdermally or as injection does not elevate blood clotting factors more than any woman who has naturally high E levels. Orally taken it does as that passes through  liver metabolism and synthetic estrogens are frigging poison compared to the real stuff. Just saying because I don't like these HRT = dangerous af myths being repeated.

Btw, only thing that ever gave me possible DVT symptoms was high dose of PM, never conventional HRT.

It can't be easily stopped, I would go totally insane and my body would function totally wrong if I stopped HRT. But with BO, I think there's something very strange it does because even when on HRT, it does some kind of weird balancing thing that nothing else seems to do. I have no idea what exactly does it, but its very obvious. I noticed it right away back when I started and first few weeks were downright euphoric. I'm not planning on ever stopping taking it if I can, just go on much lower maintenance dose at some point.

The enigmatic point of no return keeps on being repeated again and again... I know something changed around three months in for me, as it everything started to work much faster and much better, similar to how every time I've went up with my dose, body changes have become more rapid. My dose progression was like this: 400mg --> 950mg --> 750mg --> 1000mg --> 1500mg. When I was on lower dose, my breast growth did slow down but not stop, but each time I've bumped it up, so has my growth wnt faster and it appears that the pace it happens on stays the same as long as I keep taking the same dose. 1500mg per day has been said to be the optimal dose and I tend to believe that, I don't know if going even higher would give even better growth but I wouldn't try overdoing this, or anything else either as balance in all things seems to be the key. Interestingly my breast growth just keeps on going and its mostly been quite stable, never gone to a total halt for a very long time now.

I think there is something to this weird stuff about BO. Too many things repeated many times before keep on matching for it to not be so.

Yes, the options today for HRT are much safer than they were 20 or 25 years ago. I was in 8 mg estradiol taken orally and spironolactone. 

I didn’t mean to offend anyone by my use of hyperbole, my point is that I have a history of a DVT and being on a program that can exacerbate the conditions is foolish.

Yes, anything, if abused is lethal. Just read about the fools on TikTok with their challenges. Sure…water can be lethal.

Also, I agree about balance. By itself or with an AA, I found that for me 2000mg is the sweet spot. Being off it now awhile, I’m itching to start back, but at a low dose, but I have a bad record of falling back into the regimen.

BO does something really weird. It calms, perhaps a bit of euphoria, but when I’m off it, cranky, moody, headaches, and a feeling of being off balance. 

For me it was about 3 to 4 months in that things seemed to change for me. Maybe that’s a line for some where BO begins to take hold and take control. Fully? Probably not, but a starting point? A point where going back gets more difficult to more forward you go? 

I don’t know…I just know my own experience and can only speak on that.

[Heaven's Night]

Oh if you have history with DVT showing up easy, then better be extra careful with anything that boosts clotting factors. Afaik HRT taken the best way avoiding liver metabolism give few % rise to it which closely corresponds to typical cis female clotting risk. Its been a while I read about this so I might be forgetting details.

I haven't had any issues since starting HRT and especially after quitting smokes. Today exactly 13 months without btw. On my first labs I had hemoglobin too high, not alarmingly high but high enough that a doctor friend of mine said to pay attention to that. I should get it checked again soon because I have naturally thick blood and possible tendency for blood clots especially if I mess up life style. (My father has been on blood thinning meds several times due to this.) High +2000mg dose of PM gave me DVT symptoms which was both painful and scary, taking time off helped back then.

For me some kind of big shift happened around three months in, I have read people mention three months, six months, even a full year, but that's when things kinda took an upward turn. I wish there was more science on BO because its so strange. Some very grey area stuff like what makes it work for some while others don't get much benefits and what does the mystical "point of no return" happen. There are so many anecdotes on this and people swearing up and down on it that it would be worth investigation. What ever does is, I love the stuff, its been a massive game changer for me.

[Epeters7507]

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This is my theory on BO, for what it’s worth…HRT and Herbal therapies add product to one’s body to create a change by suppressing some hormones while boosting others.

BO is entirely different. As it falls into the category of glandular, I believe it changes the body to produce the hormones to produce the changes. 

So, if one stops HRT or herbal, the influx of hormones stops, so the changes stop.

BO on the other hand changes the body and it’s response, so, remove the BO, the changes, don’t reverse…I believe, so one becomes more in tune with cis gendered females, chemically anyway.

[Heaven's Night]

Btw, this is very close to the theory Melissa had about this... (Mel has been not around here for a while now unfortunately.) She was wondering about BO doing some kind of "reprogramming" of cells, changing sensitivity or the "sex setting" to female somehow. She explained it really well and I keep forgetting the details, I can't express it the way she did. It seems logical, and I think she did mention some mouse study done on some of this stuff where there were such findings, I should ask her if she still has the link to that as its very peculiar and the only thing I know to actually talk about this as there's very little science done on bovine ovary... Or other glandulars either.

[Karen Hart]

Before I took BO, I had read warnings from two or three different sources that said there was a point-of-no-return with BO.
Unfortunately, they said that it would take perhaps six months to get to that point, so I thought that I had room to experiment.

The reality, for me, was that it only took three days to (seemingly) flip the switch... not six months.
WARNING... it can happen way before 6 months. You are playing with fire... and maybe that's what you want!

It has been eight months since the beginning, with no additional BO... but the growing continues. 
However, I do take 5mg Finasteride per day and I do drink soy milk daily (~8oz).
BTW, I did not track my temperature or drink protein shakes or use any other commonly recommended supportive supplements.

Sperm production went up a little bit at month 6-7 but is now down to a couple of drops.
Erections are possible but they don't last long.
My little butt is growing too. I started with none. I have a long way to go in that department.

Would I do it again? I don't know. I was definitely not expecting this.
I'm okay with what I have now but if it continues, I may be sorry.

[Heaven's Night]

This could totally be a disaster for a cis guy. For myself on the other hand, if something is reprogramming my bodys OS to run of permanently female BIOS, I'm totally fine with that. But then again, my body is strange as nature made it, having all this stuff push me further into curvy and feminine is super nice. Bovine ovary just is a weird one, how come its so amazing and even too much so to some while others benefit very little or nothing at all happens on it?

I wish I knew if I have went past the no return threshold, by the time on it I have obviously as I'm now sixteen months in and have stocked for another six months without plans to stop any time soon. What I know for sure is that it has balanced my hormones somehow that conventional E + PG hormone replacement can not do. Melissa said the exact same, just feeling right soon after starting and that there is some chracteristic that typical HRT does not.

[tomi66]

Hi everyone, 
Great conversation on BO. 
Before I started I read as much as I could about it, and like you all said there is very little science but enough to show that it changes chemistry in the hypothalamus, I believe. BO converts T to E quite effectively. 
Copied from one of the reports I read "These higher levels of estrogen will then trick the brain into thinking that enough testosterone is being produced, further slowing the natural production of Testosterone.  This happens when estrogen saturates testosterone receptors in the hypothalamus region of the brain. The saturated hypothalamus stops sending out hormone to the pituitary to stimulate secretions of luteinizing hormone that the gonads require to produce testosterone."

It is also reported that this change becomes permanent after extended use, 3 to 9 months, but as some have stated in this thread, a few days or weeks did it for them.

The report also said that body temp should be around 98.5 +/- to work effectively and quality protein drinks help th BO metabolize. 

All that said, I am at year now on BO/PG supplements with a combined blend 2000 mg a day, half evening and half before bed with a protein shake. I also supplement wit L tyrosine, DHEA, selenium K2/D3, milk thistle and my regular multi vitamin, calcium citrate and glucosamine, I am getting old sore joints, lol.

I started low and worked my way up and was on the high dose about 6 months. Saturday I will start a slow decrease until I am off of it. I thought it might be hard to stop, and you all confirmed that. But if like the report states and you all have stated, the changes are permanent then there should be no need to continue and it would just be my addiction kicking in telling me I need it , btw, I am a recovering alcoholic for many many years so I understand the addiction to a substance. 

I am not up on today's terminologies on gender, I represent my self as a man at work and with most friends and family, however at home it's girl clothes all the time, although I haven't worn men's underwear for more than 10 years, maybe longer. I have always had a feminine side since I was a boy.

So after reading everything on herbal supplements and BO, I decided for the BO, knowing that it may or may not work and may or may not be permanent, if it works and is permanent great, if not well that would have been ok too. I am hopeful that I continue to take on a more feminine shape, my but is fuller and more rounded, my thighs are a little wider, my upper waist is thinner and my breasts went from man boobs to more look like feminine breasts, my nipples only grew slightly and are almost always erect and a slight growth in areolas, probably closer to a girl starting puberty, lol! Starting bust size 41 in band 48 in bust, now 41 band 52 bust, or 40F to 40 GG UK. 

I'll let you all know how it goes while I lower my dose and come off of it. I really hope it will be permanent, it makes dressing up more fun, I am not just a boy in a dress.   

[Karen Hart]

ONE YEAR UPDATE

It has been a year now since I took only 3 doses of BO, over 3 days. 
The dramatic loss of erectile ability and dramatically reduced ejaculate, scared me.
Have not taken any since.

Promised to check in for an update and this is it.
Biggest difference... butt size. I feel like I'm sitting on a cushion now.
Breasts... growing slowly but I want them to stop. BTW, did not get any change in areolas or nipples. Same as ever.

I have lost a lot of strength. Things feel twice as heavy now and I have trouble opening jars.
One day, I was carrying a heavy box. I thought to myself... this must weigh at least 30 pounds.
When I put it on a scale, it was 15 pounds.

I have been taking 5mg Finasteride and consuming approximately 8 oz of soy milk daily, for years.
Wanting my breasts to stop growing, a month ago, I stopped consuming soy milk completely and reduced my Finasteride to half, 2.5mg
This is helping. There has been some improvement in erections and sperm production. Sperm has changed from totally clear to somewhat cloudy.

It will take months before I know if my breasts have stopped growing.

Happy New Year!

Karen

[tomi66]

Hi Karen,
Thanks for the update. I am on my last month of high dose BO. It took a me a month or so for my libido to get knocked back. I never got to clear ejaculate, so with any luck it will only take a couple months for my libido to kick back in. Who knows though, it affects everyone a little different, I have been following a thread where at least one person has an increased libido since starting, go figure.

I have gotten wider areolas, not huge but an increase and also larger and more erect nipples, again not huge but I like the results.

Have a great New Year