[Tania80]

Dear Lotus,

For family reasons, I left my program many months ago.

2 weeks ago I started again with that program that I have been maintaining until today (third week):

Daily doses:
1000 mg PM (Pipinrock brand)
10000mg Reishi (with 50% polyshacarides, Hivital brand)

I was thinking about starting to take MSM 2g, what do you think?

Thank you so much,
Tania

[notveryinteresting]

Thank you Lotus, you are an amazing person.
Love Danni x

[Beth14]

Lotus is a very special women. Has helped so many people.

[Toni68!]

So can I use Saw Palmetto as an AA and how big of dosage

[Tania80]

After two months taking 1 PM pill (1000mg each pill), I increased to 2 PM pills and added the MSM.

My actual program is:

  2000 mg MSM
  2000 mg PM (Pipinrock brand)
10000mg Reishi (with 50% polyshacarides)

So far I have not noticed physical changes in my body, except for softer and brighter skin.

How long do you think I should continue with 2g of PM?
When do you think I will start to notice changes?

[Karen Hart]

Tania,

I think that you are wasting time and money with that Piping Rock. Try to find another brand... one that is proven.
If you cannot find one, see if you can get Fenugreek, Fennel or Red Clover in your area. They work. 
Not as powerful as PM, but they work. 1500mg/day is a reasonable dose.

You should also add Progesterone Cream to your regimen. I don't know the availability of these products in Spain.

Good luck,

Karen 

[Teddy]

Indeed, many supplements are difficult to buy in EU, and Spain might be especially strict when importing something from outside of EU. 

I agree with Karen that Fenugreek is a good "Plan B" when finding good quality PM is too difficult, because Fenugrek is classified as food (not "herbal medicine"). Therefore you can buy it easily and to low cost from many sources. Red Clover is also likely easy to get. Fennel, too, because it is a spice plant used in Europe for centuries. However, I have no experience on those two, only what Lotus and many says, they have phytoestrogens.

I used FG in beginning, by taking FG powder and RR as powder (i.e. not pills/capsules), and got my breast development started. I simply mixed them in yogurt, added maybe a teaspoon of jam, and ate up the mix. Bit "funny" taste but not too bad.

You might want to try FG + RR. However, it is better to wait with progesterone cream (-which is another EU-restricted stuff!) until you are visibly budding. According to Lotus, PC shouldn't be started too early.

Hugs  
Teddy

[prostatenipple]

Indeed, many supplements are difficult to buy in EU, and Spain might be especially strict when importing something from outside of EU. 

I agree with Karen that Fenugreek is a good "Plan B" when finding good quality PM is too difficult, because Fenugrek is classified as food (not "herbal medicine"). Therefore you can buy it easily and to low cost from many sources. Red Clover is also likely easy to get. Fennel, too, because it is a spice plant used in Europe for centuries. However, I have no experience on those two, only what Lotus and many says, they have phytoestrogens.

I used FG in beginning, by taking FG powder and RR as powder (i.e. not pills/capsules), and got my breast development started. I simply mixed them in yogurt, added maybe a teaspoon of jam, and ate up the mix. Bit "funny" taste but not too bad.

You might want to try FG + RR. However, it is better to wait with progesterone cream (-which is another EU-restricted stuff!) until you are visibly budding. According to Lotus, PC shouldn't be started too early.

Hugs  
Teddy

Sorry to take-over this thread. When you say you used FG and RR as powder:
 1. how much of each did you take? (in teaspoons or mg)
 2. why not capsules of FG + RR? Is just the powder without the capsule easier to digest?

I have several brands of PM and I'm not convinced they are doing anything, but I have RR capsules and can get some seriously strong potent (16g per capsule) extracts of FG. You are tempting me towards the FG + RR route.

[Teddy]

Sorry to take-over this thread. When you say you used FG and RR as powder:
 1. how much of each did you take? (in teaspoons or mg)
 2. why not capsules of FG + RR? Is just the powder without the capsule easier to digest?

I have several brands of PM and I'm not convinced they are doing anything, but I have RR capsules and can get some seriously strong potent (16g per capsule) extracts of FG. You are tempting me towards the FG + RR route.

No problem, I want to help!

1. FG powder: I took to start with about 500-600mg /day (I have a scale with 1mg resolution). Then I used that to "calibrate" a measuring spoon so I don't need to use the scale every time. I increased little by little until about 3000 mg/day. And I have taken RR powder a heaped teaspoon / day. Not bothering to weigh it as it is less critical and well tolerated.

2. Capsules are more convenient, clearly. But FG powder is easy to buy and cheap, and even available in some grocery stores because it is a spice. Capsules cost quite much more. Also Reishi powder is easily available from Amazon and many other places in big moderate-priced bags. Again, capsules are more costly.

PM is a tricky matter, because I haven't yet seen on EU market any extract-based product which works, and EU rules for importing supplements are so strict and weird. I have been buying my real and working PM directly from Ainterol.eu. However, they send it from Thailand, and customs handling is a pain in the butt, costing some fees and taking time. However, I have managed to import the powder to Sweden with explanation "for use as an ingredient to home made cosmetics". Capsules can't be explained easily as a cosmetics' ingredient! 

Also, note that PM powder doesn't have any strong or unpleasant taste, and it goes down therefore easily with nearly anything. I'm mixing it with yogurt.

I hope this answers your questions.
Hugs ,
Teddy

[Lotus]

Thanks Karen and Teddy for your posts. Looks like I owe an apology (sorry) to Tania for missing her questions. I don't see anyone mentioning finding a PM supplier that states their product to be “Standardized”.

With any supplement it's best to source it as being "standardized" meaning the manufacturer states the product is verified to contain x amount of said product.

To my knowledge (or recollection) ainterol standardized their capsules back in the day (2013) when I used ainterol PM, I don't see it advertised anymore except in powder form. But no PM manufacturer states the deoxymiroestrol or miroestrol content of its product. Those two are the main constituents that closely mimics estradiol.

Pm and FG are estrogenic, FG can increase E2 levels (science attached), PM acts similarly to estradiol via miroestrol/deoxymiroestrol. FG and PM are competing for the same receptor and what ends up happening is what's called over-expression which results in a disruption of normal estrogen signaling to the nucleus, meaning no breast growth. 

I don't think you should coalesce E2 and FG, meaning they both are competing for the same estrogen receptor. Here's some notes I made some years ago about how FG stimulates E2 (estradiol). Plus, one glaring no-no for me is that FG can lower SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) via in favor of T. SHBG transports hormones in the blood to various tissue receptors. SHBG is like a ying/yang scenario. Meaning (for example) when estradiol is high SHBG will be high (verified by a blood test, and thus T will be low). E2 will keep SHBG high, favoring breast growth.

IMHO, choose one or the other, and stick with it. Though don't forget the PC.

I posted this last year, take a look at the diagram in table 2, specifically the increase in dhea, progesterone, FSH (follicle stimulating hormone...a pure aromatase imo) testosterone and prolactin, respectively. From the study I believe the bump in libido comes from DHEA (similar to maca), however, the way FG increases E2 (dramatically in month 2) comes from its aromatase capabilities (from multiple pathways I believe), but mostly from FSH.

Influence of a Specialized Trigonella foenum- graecum Seed Extract (Libifem), on Testosterone, Estradiol and Sexual Function in Healthy Menstruating Women, a Randomized Placebo Controlled Study
_________________________
The aim of the study was to evaluate the effect of Trigonella Foenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract on sex hormones and sexual function in healthy menstruating women who reported low sexual drive. This short term, single site, double blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study was conducted on 80 women, aged 20 to 49 years. Participants were randomized to either an oral dose of a standardized T. foenum-graecum seed extract (libifem) at a dose of 600 mg/day or placebo over two menstrual cycles. Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, progesterone, androstenedione, total and free testosterone, estradiol (E2), luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, sex hormone binding globulin and cholesterol were measured at baseline and 8 weeks. The individual aspects of sexual function were measured using the Derogatis interview for sexual functioning and female sexual function index self-administered questionnaires. Stress, fatigue and quality of the relationship with partners were also measured using the PSS (Perceived Stress Scale), MFI-20 (Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory) and DAS (Dyadic Adjustment Scale) quality of life measures, respectively. There was a significant increase in free testosterone and E2 in the active group as well as sexual desire and arousal compared with the placebo group. The results indicate that this extract of T. foenum-graecum may be a useful treatment for increasing sexual arousal and desire in women. Copyright © 2015 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Lui...-Study.pdf

(Well yeah, but judging from this study FG pretty much upregulates everything, see here

Administration of T. foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels. Estradiol stimulates vaginal lubrication and blood flow, affecting a woman’s capacity for sexual arousal and orgasm (Simon, 2011); this supports the significant positive change in sexual arousal observed. Whilst the mechanism of the increase in E2 levels is unclear from the current study, one possibility is due to increased aromatase activity that converts testosterone to E2.

My interpretation of how FG increases E2 is explained above.

I now understand how highly organized molecules function inside the mitochondrial matrix, for instance: ATP (which stands for Adenosine Triphosphate) is the Energy Currency for Cells, but before I get into the science (which blows my mind) I must admit ignorance in my early NBE programs.....yup!, I didn't know any better back then    but here I am now better prepared/informed and ready take on the science of NBE/hrt. 

Btw, only using 600 mg of fenugreek (with 50% saponins) works just fine:
Fenugreek increases estradiol
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=26172

Part of the reason (which I now believe) what makes fenugreek useful for NBE is how it works in stomach acid...the saponins (emulsifiers) in FG is a mechanism for boosting estradiol in stomach acid.