[tanysquirrel]

ok i am trying to catch up with this thread (halfway through on another separate tab). 

ok while i muddle through the rest of the 80 something pages   i have a few questions regarding dht reduction and what i post below is what i am currently using (about a half a dropper full) :

reishi for dht reduction (how many times  a day? 

its liquid extract
White peony for aromatization (same thing, how many times a day its also liquid extract)


and SHOULD i also add green tea extract too? does two of the same contradict each other or compete?

Sorry a lot of questions all bottled up in one post. 

Hi TMS, someone asked me a similar question (to yours) and this was my response:

Pueraria Mirifica – Awesome for breast growth

Reishi-reishi mushrooms – Significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony – Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Th above is what I've been reading on this thread. My question is: Should one combine PM with both RM AND WP? Does WP & RM not do the same thing? Why take both in a HRT program? Or am I missing something?

Both are similar, however...there's significant differences. From the research I've covered, Reishi Inhibits type I & II 5ar....and WP binds androgen receptors. When I took Reishi I could 4-5 days without needing a shave. Now, on HRT I need a shave within 2 days...and that's with my T and free T being non-existent, so go figure. 

WP needs to be standardized to contain a minimum of 10% Paeoniflorin (solaray has one i believe). Total glucosides of peony (TGP), contains more than 15 components, BUT Paeoniflorin is the most abundant ingredient and NEEDS to be 90% of the total glucosides. 

There's about a gazillion scientific papers on WP and its benefits. I've posted most of what I think is beneficial for NBE here (at BN). In the BN search engine, insert Lotus into the username and check the box for posts (not threads) and you find what I've shared. 

Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO. 

"Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO."

Thank you! I get it. This stuff is very complicated but I'll take both WP & RM on your recommendation.    

Bev

Thanks for any reply (hopefully an in depth one).

The dosage for White Peony that worked for me was 2 grams, make sure you get the highest standardized WP possible.

Reishi- in its own right does feminize, and has an aromatase study, I'd have to find it though. As far as dosage i take mine as tea. Which for me is ¼ teaspoons with my coffee in the morning. In liquid extract or pill form just follow the manufacturer's suggested dosage. 

Honestly though, I'd stick with GTE and reishi. If you want something "NEW and Extraordinary" though pm me and you'll be among a select few I'm sharing it with that blows the door off any known pro-aromatase. 

Someone shared the WP content of Swanson's brand a while back (my apologies to the OP I don't remember who though). White peony (standardized) should bump aromatase 2-3 fold (based on scientific literature) a 30% increase, for myself that means an increase of 60-80 pg/mL blood estradiol, though everybody is different. I believe Life Extension sells a standardized capsule but Swanson full spectrum isn't standardized. I believe it's not standardized (lol, I have a bottle sitting on the shelf too). Here's a few things about WP, or where I think the rubber needs to meet the road, or more to the point finding a suitable WP supplement that contains two compounds: 6'-O-galloyl  and pentagalloylglucose, they bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT. Let's let science solve this puzzle of what WP does for NBE.....which I think we just did. The dose could be less than I calculated earlier if these compounds and the main glycoside 3'-O-galloyl paeoniflorin are present would be estimated at 1 gram. 

Additionally, testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio is also reduced (significantly) by paeoniflorin (white peony). 

In ovaries WP promotes aromatase, (I believe in the breasts too), inhibits DHT in sebum, inhibits prostate cancer cells, (which means it inhibits C17 @ CYP17 P450 enzyme, a strong anti-androgen. The lab dosage was 2 grams (I'll have to double check). Roots contain the highest bioactives.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Androgen modulators from the roots of Paeonia (paeoniae radix) grown and processed in nara prefecture, Japan.
Washida K1, Itoh Y, Iwashita T, Nomoto K.
Abstract
The monoterpene glycoside, 3'-O-galloyl paeoniflorin (1), and four known compounds, 6'-O-galloyl  (2), pentagalloylglucose (3), 6'-O-benzoyl paeoniflorin (4) and 6'-O-galloyl paeoniflorin (5), were isolated from the roots of Paeonia  that had been grown and processed in Nara prefecture, Japan, as androgen modulators. Their structures were elucidated based on spectroscopic analysis. Compounds 2 and 3 showed strong androgen receptor (AR) binding activity (IC(50) values 33.7 and 4.1 microg/ml, respectively), 1, 4 and 5 showed weak activity (20, 31 and 12% at 120 microg/ml, respectively). However, paeoniflorin (6) and albiflorin (7), the structures of which are related to 1, 2, 4 and 5, showed no activity. These results suggested that both the structure of albiflorin and the galloyl moiety are important for 2 to show strong AR binding activity. Furthermore, compounds 1-5 inhibited growth of an androgen-dependent LNCaP-FGC (prostate cancer cell line), and were indicated to be AR antagonists. Compounds 2 and 3 might be candidates as safe, natural anti-androgens.

Testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio was lowered significantly by paeoniflorin, and two compounds, 6'-O-galloyl  and pentagalloylglucose bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT.

 Ty!

[Lotus]

we all know about hops. from the consumption of mans best friend, which results in moobs.

I made a post if you want to see the supplements i am taking. and sorry for the long post.

Here's some research i put together on hops 
https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17436&pid=219638#pid219638

Hi Marcy, 

From the studies I've seen, HOPS is 70 times more potent for ER-b (estrogen receptor beta) over estradiol and 20,000 times less potent at ER-a (estrogen receptor alpha) over estradiol. If I didn't mention already, HOPS upregulates progesterone receptor mRNA (signaling)..a ten-fold increase in PR gene upregulation. Besides stimulating IGF-1 HOPs enhances thermogenesis in BAT (brown adipose tissue, aka " fat " ), which means counteracting increases body fat......I know right, I'm thinking beer means beer belly imo, didn't make sense, but here's the study. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26098641/

FWIW I don't think HOPS will comprise HRT, for me I'd take it at night time for the IGF-1 stimulation and promotion of PR (progesterone receptor).  

Hop and red clover extracts, as well as 8-PN upregulated progesterone receptor (PR) mRNA in the Ishikawa cell line. In the MCF-7 cell line, PR mRNA was significantly upregulated by the extracts, biochanin A, genistein, 8-PN, and IX. The two extracts had EC50 values of 1.1 and 1.9 μg/mL, respectively, in the alkaline phosphatase induction assay. Based on these data, hops and red clover could be attractive for development as herbal dietary supplements to alleviate menopause-associated symptoms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...s14948.pdf

Plus other HOPS info
https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17436&pid=219638#pid219638

[EverJosie]

we all know about hops. from the consumption of mans best friend, which results in moobs.

I made a post if you want to see the supplements i am taking. and sorry for the long post.

Here's some research i put together on hops 
https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17436&pid=219638#pid219638

Hi Marcy, 

From the studies I've seen, HOPS is 70 times more potent for ER-b (estrogen receptor beta) over estradiol and 20,000 times less potent at ER-a (estrogen receptor alpha) over estradiol. If I didn't mention already, HOPS upregulates progesterone receptor mRNA (signaling)..a ten-fold increase in PR gene upregulation. Besides stimulating IGF-1 HOPs enhances thermogenesis in BAT (brown adipose tissue, aka " fat " ), which means counteracting increases body fat......I know right, I'm thinking beer means beer belly imo, didn't make sense, but here's the study. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26098641/

FWIW I don't think HOPS will comprise HRT, for me I'd take it at night time for the IGF-1 stimulation and promotion of PR (progesterone receptor).  

Hop and red clover extracts, as well as 8-PN upregulated progesterone receptor (PR) mRNA in the Ishikawa cell line. In the MCF-7 cell line, PR mRNA was significantly upregulated by the extracts, biochanin A, genistein, 8-PN, and IX. The two extracts had EC50 values of 1.1 and 1.9 μg/mL, respectively, in the alkaline phosphatase induction assay. Based on these data, hops and red clover could be attractive for development as herbal dietary supplements to alleviate menopause-associated symptoms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...s14948.pdf

Plus other HOPS info
https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17436&pid=219638#pid219638

Everything said about hops is wrong. Hops activate and prefer ERalpha more than ERbeta. Hopien, the phyto-estrogen that acts like Estradiol, is 70 times less potent than 17-beta Estradiol. Hops like to attach to ERalpha WAY more than ERbeta. This is why I do my own research when I read stuff from here.

https://www.herbalgram.org/resources/her...view44569/

"Milligan and his team isolated and characterized '8PN as the major estrogenic substance in hops and one of the most potent known plant estrogens.' Subsequent research has demonstrated that 8PN mimics the action of 17beta-estradiol. 8PN has 10-20,000-fold less potency than estradiol for ERbeta. However, it has a much greater affinity for the ERalpha receptor, where it is only 70-fold less potent than estradiol. When racemic 8PN is separated and assayed, there is 'no significant difference in ER binding potency between the 2R and 2S forms."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1815392/

"The red clover extract preferentially bound to the ERβ receptor nine-times greater than to ERα. The hop extract had nearly a two-fold preference for ERα compared with ERβ. Since all of these studies were carried out using cell-based assays with ERα positive cell lines, it is important to note that the hop and red clover extracts had equivalent ERα activity."

[Lotus]

There's no mistake, it's just worded differently: 

Schaefer et al., reported that 8-PN  has a higher affinity for ERα, where it is 70 times weaker than estradiol for ERβ, reported as 20,000 times weaker than estradiol
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7570471/

Stating everything said about hops is wrong...now you're throwing shade on the science. The red clover statement is inconsequential.

Not to burst your bubble but genistein can cause cancer. 
Genistein induces breast cancer-associated aromatase and stimulates estrogen-dependent tumor cell growth in in vitro breast cancer model
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21854827/

[tanysquirrel]

Yay! u conquered reading this mammoth thread! (only took a few days).

[Lotus]

Yay! u conquered reading this mammoth thread! (only took a few days).

Hear Ye Hear Ye! ...Be it known our beloved "Squirrel" (aka-Tanya Marie Squirrel) made history by reading this boring thread....in just a few days congrats 

[Gabrielle]

I wonder how do you go about combining the two? Mix up with some vodka theen? Lol

If you want the strongest anti-androgen combination go with reishi that inhibits DHT@80% and green tea extract (GTE/EGCG@45%) that inhibits DHT@98%....nothing else compares or competes. Backed by science. 

That's in herbal supplements form.

YOu could take both but stacking has no effect, a peer reviewed study came out showing that neither stacking or taking more of a dht supplement makes it more potent. Just take the max/ take what works for you. Just dont bother taking more or stacking. Saves you not only money but your liver will thank you.

Confusing information 
Here about the combination

[KittKat]

hey hi!

A question for all the researcher, science-y types.
If Reishi is a strong anti-androgen because of the polyphenols (beta-glucens & triterpenes) would Turkey Tail mushrooms be a viable alternative?

From this manufacturer, they appear to have more beta-glucens.
Organic Reishi
Turkey Tail

Thank you kindly,

[Lotus]

hey hi!

A question for all the researcher, science-y types.
If Reishi is a strong anti-androgen because of the polyphenols (beta-glucens & triterpenes) would Turkey Tail mushrooms be a viable alternative?

From this manufacturer, they appear to have more beta-glucens.
Organic Reishi
Turkey Tail

Thank you kindly,

Hi KittKat, I actually updated the Reishi in my program to include the RealMushroom because it includes the high Beta-D-Glucans and triterpenoids...which is rare to have listed on its label. I didn't find research results on Turkey Tail inhibiting DHT, it does help fight cancer though which is a good sign of its strength (from its polysaccharides). 

Hi MarianneBequette, I'd suggest this program over red clover or any other starter program to be quite honest. This program get results, i developed it after years of trying different products & programs. I've also found new discoveries to add to this program backed by science benefiting breast growth and overall health that I'll be updating soon. 

Continuing the research, there's a strategy in using vitamin D3 and calcium (and actual relatable science) together in the Lotus NBE program, along with MSM that's been thought out very carefully that I'll share asap. But this first, vitamin D3 actually increases IGF-1, so as we worry about not getting enough IGF-1 for breast growth you've been getting if you've followed my plan…or taking 5,000iu to 7,000iu of vitamin D3 per day. Which is perfectly safe limits to take within these amounts.
Vitamin D increases circulating IGF1 in adults: potential implication for the treatment of GH deficiency
Pietro Ameri et al. Eur J Endocrinol. 2013
Abstract
Objectives: Previous studies suggested that vitamin D modulates circulating IGF1. We investigated this effect in adults and its clinical relevance in the management of GH deficiency (GHD).
Design and methods: IGF1 levels were prospectively measured before and after 12 weeks of treatment with oral vitamin D3 (5000 or 7000 IU/week) vs no intervention in 39 subjects 61.9±7.9 years old. The frequency of IGF1 values ≥50th age- and sex-specific percentile in relation to vitamin D status, as determined by the concentration of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D), was retrospectively assessed in 69 GHD patients (57.4±16.6 years) on stable hormone replacement and with 25(OH)D and IGF1 concurrently measured.
Results: Treatment with 5000 and 7000 IU vitamin D3/week significantly raised 25(OH)D by 12.7±8.4 and 13.1±6.5 ng/ml respectively (both P<0.001 vs baseline). In the 7000 IU group, IGF1 levels also significantly increased by 31.3±36.7 ng/ml (P=0.01). Neither 25(OH)D nor IGF1 significantly varied in controls. IGF1 was ≥50th percentile more frequently in GHD patients with 25(OH)D levels ≥15 than <15 ng/ml(65.9 vs 40.0%, P<0.05). Logistic regression with adjustment for recombinant human GH (rhGH) dose, vitamin D supplements, gender, use of thyroid hormones, corticosteroids or estrogen/testosterone, and season revealed a significant positive association between ≥15 ng/ml 25(OH)D and IGF 1 ≥50th percentile (OR 4.4, 95% CI 1.0-18.8, P<0.05). A significant negative correlation between 25(OH)D concentrations and rhGH dose was found after correcting for age and IGF1 (β -0.042, P<0.01), but not after further adjusting for sex, thyroid, adrenal or gonadal replacement, and season (β -0.037, P=0.06).
Conclusions: Vitamin D increases circulating IGF1 in adults. As a result, a better vitamin D status may ease the achievement of normal IGF1 values in GHD.
Vitamin D regulates IGF1 concentrations in the liver, the main source of circulating IGF1

Pueraria mirifica @ 500-1500pm (daily)
Progesterone cream-⅛ teaspoon per breast (3-4 times per week)
MSM 1-3g per day. antioxidant, taking msm facilitates a pro-breast growth pathway called STAT5, it's a protein synthesizer, Meaning it helps raise growth hormone.
Vitamin D3 & Calcium, helps with breast growing. If you take Calcium you need V-D3 to become more biologically active. Source vitamin D3 with organic olive oil. 
Melatonin (dosage varies per person), taking this is going after REM and Deep sleep stages (@ body healing), and other things. 
Reishi extract-follow manufacturers dosing guidelines, the higher the polysaccharides the stronger anti-androgen. Like this one below, it's organic and 30% polysaccharides.
Another option for Reishi mushrooms is this brand below, it contains lists >25% Beta-glucans, >4% Triterpenes...you can't find another reishi supplement at a reasonable cost as this one does. Both triterpenoids and Beta-D-Glucans (polysaccharides) are the anti-cancer, anti-androgens, longevity things in a reishi supplement you want. 
https://shop.realmushrooms.com/products/...m-capsules
Technically, MSM stimulates the stat5 pathway which facilitates phosphorylation and the nuclear translocation and DNA binding...in other words it helps with breast growth. MSM also stimulates prolactin and enhances GH (growth hormone)lol. 

[Nadi]

Question for the specialists here, especially Lotus:

Since I keep getting stomach and bowel problems from taking too much herbs, especially RR, I have now made myself a topical tincture. I have cut up a few RR tablets and mixed the contents with a skin cream and I now apply this to my testicles and penis to get at least a little anti-androgenic effect.

What do you think? Does it make sense and can it have any effect or is it a waste of time?