[wee2er]

Been pondering this question which has driven me to do this post to gather thoughts from you lovely people on here, but unsure if it should be in the Male staying Male section but then decided it was better here as I posed myself the question.....

Always considered myself as male staying male, but am I really transgender/transitioning, possibly by stealth?

Since discovering girls at the age of 11, I've grown to love the female form and everything about them, including how they have a much wider choice of clothes. Even to the extent that I soon started wearing girls jeans & dungarees (long boring story but nowt to do with cross dressing) then through my teen years added leggings and a few girls t-shirts / jumpers etc.
The only remit I had was my mam's, God rest her soul, decree absolute that she would allow me to wear anything as long as I still looked like a boy. Which actually worked well with me as I had zero desire to look or be a girl.
Now in my mid-late 50s I'm still buying clothes using the same remit with generally a 75% womens / 25% mens split. However, when I sorted my wardrobe out a couple of months ago to swap my winter/summer stuff, I realised that over 90% of my clothes are from the women's section and probably has been for quite some time! 

Furthermore, over the years I now:
- added skirts, tops, jumpsuits, playsuits, etc but all very plain styles
- shave / epilate all body hair
- paint my nails, mostly blues, greys, browns, greens and the odd pink or red
- had my naval & nipples pierced
- added a face skincare routine - cleanse, moistures and treat but found womens products were best (mens tended to give me rashes/spots etc)
- on occasions simple makeup, concealer, foundation, mascara and the odd subtle lipstick, rouge and eyeliner/shadow
- have my eyebrow wax and always ask for thinned and defined female curved brows

All of which are more associated with being female!

And that's all before I started on my NBE journey!

Initially intrigue was 'can men really grow boobs witha few simple herbs?' - clearly yes they can  Intrigue turned into a desire to grow a pair of A/B breasts, but once I had the making a some small curves up top I realised my body proportions was all a kilter, so my goals changed to focussing more on all over body feminisation with ideally no more than nice feminine rounded B-cup breasts.
This has taken me through PM > HRT > HRT with BO and I fully intend to continue, health permitting. I'm loving all the changes that it all brings softer skin, out of this world orgasms, changing body shape to be more curves top and bottom, the chilled out mind, clarity of though and far better concentration levels and happier in myself.

So much so I've decided its time to get my bloods done so that I can understand where/how to tweak my regime to better achieve my goals.

When I look at all this, there does seem a lot of evidence tipping the balance to some form of transitioning!

In my mind, I'm still most definitely a man and want to stay that way, I continue to present male and thankfully have zero body dysmorphia, no gender issues, no desire to cross-dress or present as female, but yet there are lots of feminine associated traits that I indulge in.

This begs the question, that realistically only I can answer - 

Can I carve out a solution to have breasts with a more female shaped body, wear mostly womens clothes and do all the other feminine associated things I do and stay male, or have I socially transitioned by stealth ???

[tomi66]

Hi wee2er,
Thank you for sharing about your journey. You are absolutely correct, this is a question only you can answer.

I can relate to some of your story. I am a male and I am staying male. I have always liked girls clothing more than male clothing. I paint my toenails.

I must say for myself I also want to and do dress as a female, I like to feel feminine when I dress up and enjoy being called ma'am.

I think I like to walk that line between male and female. The only thing I have not had,besides breasts, is a more feminine body shape. As I have lost over 30 pounds in the past few months that shape is starting to fill in.

It sounds like you had a great mom who let you be you. I am sure my mom would have been the same but where I lived in the USA, it wasn't socially acceptable and it was difficult enough for me being half American Indian and half white growing up. I did have long hair though because that was part of my native cultue and when we were clothes shopping I would always get referred to as your "daughter" might like this.

[CM213]

Yes I think you can transition to an extent in stealth. But there will come a time will you will no longer look male but not quite female either. That's why facial surgery and top surgeries are usually the first one done before having any kind of bottom surgery. 

Seems like most people get to a point where their body is starting to look more feminine (or breast growth, hips butt etc.) but facial features and prob muscle mass keep them from passing completely. Which is why facial surgery is usually the first thing done, or done in conjunction with something else at the same time. 

Once on HRT again it's all on your body and genetics as to how long you can stay in guy mode till you can't pass anymore as a guy. 

I'd looking into other forums which I'll post here for you which may have more information.

https://www.susans.org/index.php

Susans is a great place for support abd asking questions and getting real advice from people who have been there and done that. Who have already transitioned.

https://secondtypewoman.info/index.htm

The second one is a bite dated (2001) but still helpful and has a lot of information.

[OOO]

I’m just going with my wife’s theory.

We’ll deal with it when it happens.

[Csquared]

Can I carve out a solution to have breasts with a more female shaped body, wear mostly womens clothes and do all the other feminine associated things I do and stay male, or have I socially transitioned by stealth ???

I wouldn't call that stealth.....maybe subconsciously you've been transitioning based on your admiration of the female form.  That turned into an appreciation for the way clothes fit YOUR feminized shape and the way your hormones make you feel add to the gender appeal of being feminine.  Many of us have been "in transition" long before we even realized it.  For context.....  I do my own nails, no body hair, same piercings as you, makeup, etc... all many years BEFORE starting HRT and admitting I was trans.  Still not sure if I will stay male, but it doesn't feel like I will much longer.  Since you've been able to exercise and express your self over many years, there might be a correlation with having NO dysphoric traits associated with feminine expressions.  (I've learned alot about this stuff trying to explain my own feelings)  In many ways, you might have transitioned more than some but never really labeled it as such.  Just my 2 cents, but would love to talk some more!

[Stevenator_]

I’m just going with my wife’s theory.

We’ll deal with it when it happens.

Ditto .... Until then I'll take another dose of 17b/P4 and love the effects they bring!

[wee2er]

Thanks for the replies, most interesting

Tomi66 - A big well done to you for losing 30+pounds, that takes some doing, but as you have seen, loads of benefits including health and fem filling out. My Mam was a brill thank you, in reality, the clothes she allowed me to wear were really just girls versions of the boys, she actually admitted to me that she liked how they fitted better and liked how she could choose from a wider range of colours.
LOL, my younger brother had longish hair when he was young and he had the same happen to him, we ribbed him so much that eventually he had a short back and sides LOL
Interesting that you relate to some of my experiences, and the one major difference I see is that you like to dress and feel feminine, whereas if I put something on and I feel or  look feminine I take it off / don't buy it.
Whilst on HRT I have had times were I've wanted to wear earrings, (both ears were pierced when I was 19), so I put either my plain silver studs or small hoops in, but guaranteed to take them out after five or ten minutes as I think they look too fem.
Over the years and whilst on HRT I've ended up with three dresses, a plain blue midi, a stripped rugby and sweatshirt style, but each time I try them on again I usually end up taking them off soon after as I look/feel to feminine. So for me I've accepted that dresses are just too fem for my style.

CM213 - thanks for the links, I've looked through the susans site before and never found anything that resonates with me, but I'll dig more into both sites.
However, I think I'm a bit of an outlier male staying male, enjoying the changes HRT brings.
I agree with you regarding facial surgery etc, as that would be the logical step for transitioning, but I'd never have surgery facial as I have zero desire to transition. Maybe that will change in time, but at the moment I really cannot see that happening.
Personally, I feel that I could be on HRT long term and still pass as male, OK maybe a bit of an odd looking male. I know we cant pick and chose what HRT does for us, but I'm not after huge breast & hips just a decent fem shape, so once I'm there or thereabouts I'll back off HRT and go on a maintenance program. Which is all fine with me.

Caylee - Fantastic and good luck, you clearly have a gem of a wife.

Csquared- Very interesting take on my situation thanks. 
Once I discovered girls, I was hooked, oh what a fool I am LOL but yes the attraction at 11 was not shape wise as at that age there is little difference, so it was more about the wider choice of style they had. I had a half sized wardrobe with a couple of jeans, jumpers, school stuff and my Sunday best in whereas my then (1st GF!) had two wardrobes full of jeans, skirts, jumpsuits, dungarees, etc, etc. It was seeing her turn up in completely different outfits each day that prompted me to question, 'why do boys not have more choice of clothes?'   
Thankfully my Mam understood and agreed so bought girls clothes that were just subtly different from the boys stuff - one trend was girls jeans had a thin red pinstripe sewn into the outside seam, boys jeans never had that! Lots of girls t-shirts were cap sleeved instead of the usual short sleeves on boys T's. Both subtle variation and both of which my Man bought me. The two major outside the norms were dungarees and jumpsuit she bought me, the only boy dungarees were for toddlers, and jumpsuits or rather boilersuits were all mens sized, so what I wore was clearly from the girls side, but always very plain and simple styled, therefore fitting her decree absolute that I had to look like a boy.
I agree I think I've anesthetised myself in certain ways, wearing clothes from the women section, painting my nails etc, However, I do always revert back to not wanting to be feminine, so clothes are still plain and practical (pockets  ) nail polish nothing to bright, etc.
I'll do a follow up post about body shape etc as there's more to think on that.
Maybe I have transitioned, but not in the usual sense?

Stevenator - love that, actually that's just reminded me I need to slap some oestrogel on LOL

[wee2er]

Just following on from Csquared thinking about body dysphoria 

The only body issues I have had is when I hit my mid-thirties when I started putting on a few pounds on my belly, the fat didnt bother me, it was how my scar looked. Back when I was 6-wks old they had to slice me open to sort out a life threatening problem, thankfully all sorted just leaving what has now become a 4" scar. This never bothered me as a kid or adult so always had no qualms whipping my top off when too warm.   

But since the fat moved in and no matter how much I lose weight, my scar has developed ugly lumps around the stiches and scar tissue, so much so that I really don't like people seeing it. Which on a side note, is actually what led me to wearing one piece water polo swimsuits when I went to the beach / swimming baths.

Thankfully, other than my scar I have zero issues with my body at all, or do I? Once I had some curves developing on top, I realised my body proportions looked odd - curves on top with straight down hips, just didn't seem to fit right with me! So came to the decision I needed some curves below to match / even out my body shape - in other words a female shape.

As I'm an engineer, all this NBE has been based on research and logical decisions, and thankfully I can see the greys between the black and whites. So after my usual review and research phase, I decided the logical route would be HRT and latterly adding BO as the vehicles to achieve my goals.

To me this isn't dysphoria, it's the same methodology that I have applied all my life, 
- Home - buying the right house to renovate
- Work - developing precision machinery, systems, processes etc
- Health- best exercise / diet etc for my health conditions
- NBE - male staying male or to transition - the best regime to achieve a fem shape with B-cup breasts
 
For me everything is based on research, logical thinking and analysis on how best to achieve something, or am I wrong / blinkering / limiting myself?

[Shirazmn]

Hi Wee2er

If you really need to put a label on it, "transition" is a period between two states. You transition from A to B when you know what B is, so if you don't know what your end goal is then it's harder to call it a transition. I feel like seconding Caylee's "We'll deal with it when it happens" phylosophy. You seem to have an accepting environment around yourself, so you may not have to set a "point B" at all.
I really do see gender as a spectrum and I see nothing wrong with males growing boobs or wearing more comfy clothing that better fit their body shape. You sound more "non binary" to me than "trans", not having dysphoria allows you to be more flexible with your expectations and, as far as I understand, not having to hide your body reduces the process of having to fully transition to be able to fully express yourself.

[OOO]

Shirazmn

Thanks for your insight on transition.  I had never thought about the A and B scenario.  Logical thinking!  So I’m not as lost as I feel.

I know without a doubt what my B is. Now I will deal with the roadblocks when they happen.

Thanks!
Caylee