27-06-2011, 09:36 AM
Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto
August 2 2007 at 4:38 AM Anon (no login)
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Can a combination of these two herbs be effective for NBE? What would a good dosage be? I have the 610mg bottle of Fennugreek, and the 450 mg of Saw Palmetto. What would be a safe regime? And how long before results started to appear? 9 mos or more?
Also if you come from a family of large chested women, does this help as the genes are in your favor?
Thanks
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Hello and welcome! August 2 2007, 7:15 AM
First of all, is this liquid extract or capsules?
I would add a third herb. Maybe red Clover.
I used fenugreek/fennel/saw palmetto earlier this year and had success with that but I would have taken red clover instead of fennel if I hadn't been allergic to clover. It is a lot more estrogenic than fennel you see. I don't think I needed the saw palmetto, but if you are a biological male or got lots of androgens you will need that too.
As you probably know, saw palmetto will lower your testosterone, fenugreek is both estrogenic and progesteronic and you need to add a third estrogenic item to that I think.
If these are capsules you've got, I'd suggest that you try 2 of each per day to start with, for about a week. Then you can ramp up the dose gradually. If you feel tingles in the breast area during this time, you should stop ramping up and stay on whatever dose you are taking at present because that is the level that's ideal for your growth.
You must never take more than 3600 mg/d of fenugreek.
You must never take more than 5000 mg/d of saw palmetto.
Some people respond to the herbs within a month while others take a lot longer, it's individual. Genetics might play a certain role for your success rate but I'm not an expert.
I hope some of the others here will respond to your post too so you get an idea of what people are taking in general.
Good luck!
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 2 2007, 7:36 AM
"You must never take more than 5000 mg/d of saw palmetto."
Uh oh.. I take a hell of a lot more than that.
What's the consequences?
_______________________________________
http://transhouston.com/members/blog/morticia
_______________________________________
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 2 2007, 8:43 AM
Yes, your age and body weight can determine how long it will take you to see results.
Currently I'm in my 40s and over 200 lbs :-( But I'm going down. So my weight has kind of slowed my progress.
On average, depending on how much and what you take, You can expect to experience some results within three months.
One thing to keep in mind is, that if a genetic female can see some results in a month, It will usually take males twice as long to get results.
I'm currently using PM 1500 mgs Daily with 3x 160 mgs.saw palmetto extract. 1x 1000mgs L- tyrosine ,1000mgs of lysine and 1500 mgs of L-arginine I also take 1x 500mgs.EPO.
Right now, I'm kind of tweaking my program around,Trying some new combinations.
I would suggest trying to use some of the stronger estrogenic herbs Like PM ,Redclover,fenugreek,But you need to control your androgens, so the saw palmetto is a good choice.
To get the right dosage is something you'll have to work on by starting low and working your way up until you find the correct amount that works for you. Your starting point should be what it says on your bottle.
I hope this helps.Besides that we're always here if you need more help.
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) To Morticia: August 2 2007, 7:36 PM
Saw Palmetto side effects:
cramping
nausea
vomiting
diarrhea
headache
stomach ulcer
liver damage
I guess you'll need to take Milk Thistle on a regular basis to protect your liver if you take very large amounts. Normal use shouldn't be harmful though.
Read more here:
http://www.nutritional-supplements-healt...fects.html
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Anon
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 4:07 AM
The Fenugreek says "Fenugreek Seed". It is in a capsule. The Saw Palmetto is SP Berry, Serenoa repens:fruit. What I have no idea what that means!!
But if I add Red Clover and just stay on really low dosages, would it just take a few months longer to grow? Or is it too low to have any effect?
And the big question... if I lower my testosterone levels to grow, and do grow over say, over the next 6 months.... then I stop the herbs, would my testosterone levels go back to normal? Would I be the same person from before? Or have I altered my body chemistry forever? Would I see breast growth before hip and other female growth??
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 5:57 AM
Hard to say.. Everyone is different.
I'm 8 months into this now and I'm definitely feminine looking now. So much so that I'm sure I've passed the point of no return. My tits have reached a point that I don't see how it could be possible for them to just go away. Not without surgery. The rest of me, it's maybe possible but it would take some work to make my feminine features to go away. I don't think it would be easy to reverse what I've accomplished so far and with each day I get further and further away from the point of no return.
In other words, "I'm not the man I used to be.."
Be aware though, I started out on a low dose and had the delusion that I just wanted to grow some "secret boobies" and stop. HA! Yeah right..
Now I'm taking large doses of the stuff and I'm committed for life to this. I'll never stop taking my whore-moans.
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http://transhouston.com/members/blog/morticia
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 7:30 AM
Two capsules of each per day would be a good starting dose. I don't know how much of the red clover you need to take though.
If you take them for six months you might get dramatic results or very subtle results depending on your body so no one can really tell. However, should you stop taking the herbs after that, your body will start to raise its testosterone levels again gradually but the changes that have happened (breast growth mainly) will probably stay permanent.
You'd better think long and hard on this since it's somewhat irreversible.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 8:29 AM
Yes,after doing this for about 6 months, and you realize that this is not for you , you should quit. If you continue after the six months, it starts to become irreversible.
EG: Lets say if you have done this for a year or so and you have grown some breasts to a full A cup or a B cup,then you decide that this isn't for you, Well, then there isn't much you can do about it anymore.After you quit,Your breasts might deflate a bit but the growth will stay. Then the only option would be surgery.
The other thing to keep in mind is taking hormones for a longer period of time can be addictive. There are many who have taken hormones for a while,just to see what it was like,without any intention of transforming and ended up not quiting and going all the way.
My oppinion about the red clover is that,being a male, you need to take a minimum of a 1000mgs.a day and if you don't want to take more than that,You should combine it with another estrogenic herb.EG; fenugreek,fennel,hops or flax seed oil. There are several more you can choose from.
The Key is to find the right combination that works for you.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 8:44 AM
Oh, and it will make you sterile too....
Put a little something in the bank if you want to have kids in the future.
_______________________________________
http://transhouston.com/members/blog/morticia
_______________________________________
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Just to clarify August 3 2007, 9:29 AM
One thing I also like to mention Is that the info.I had posted is what one could expect on 'average'. Some males could respond quicker and some could respond alot slower.
So like Fennel Fairy said, It's hard to say.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 7:49 PM
There's a Tgirl on Susan's that has been trying for 7 years to grow boobs and she's flat as a board.
She's very frustrated because she tried herbals and now she's been on synthetic estrogens for 7 years and not a single bit of development. She's tried everything you can imagine, been to doctors, etc..
Nothing. Apparently there's something in her genes that preventing her from growing breasts.
Except for not having any boobies, she's otherwise very feminine looking, she's pretty darn good looking and passes really well.
We're all different. We all develop differently. Some do, some don't.
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Anon
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 4 2007, 4:59 AM
Nope... I wouldn't mind permanent breast changes and a little on the 'caboose'. Breasts have been part of my identity for a long time. However I would stop around a full A cup, or maybe a very small B. And some folks think I could use a little weight anyhow; it'll make the panties fit better. I just want to do this in the most healthy way possible if I decide.
I only wonder what it would feel like to have these wonderful objects swinging around as you move about? Morticia is getting up there in size, and Fennel has grown to a full and proud "C". That has to be an awesome feeling.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 4 2007, 8:17 AM
Well, mine aren't "swinging" yet but they jiggle a little.
It's nice. When I sit on the edge of the bed at night and I look down I see a female body, female legs and TITS..
It's nice......
I still don't hold a candle, much less a match to a genetic female and probably never will but shedding the male form and becoming more female is a very pleasant experience. I like this a lot. Nothing in my life has ever been more "right" than this. It just feels right. I want so bad to be completely female in every way possible but I know it's not going to happen. But I'm going to try like hell.
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Yes but... August 4 2007, 8:17 AM
My results don't count though, because I am a biological female to start with. I am surfing while you are rowing upstreams. It must be a hell of a lot easier for me to do this I reckon. Still, there are girls on these boards who were born female and still don't grow breasts whatever they try so yeah...
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 8 2007, 6:22 AM
Flax seed oil as Ive read in some places, is not useful for any hormone effects,the ground flax seed must be eaten.
However Ive also read that flax is a estrogen balancer because of its high levels of lignans.
It will either raise natural estrogen if its too low or it will utilize and promote incoming estrogens if that is needed.
It will also lower estrogen levels if they are too high.
This is what bothered me. If it uses T as a benchmark in the male body then flax will lower any estrogen it deems excessive.
Does this make sense?
Ive been wanting to do some more checking on this,but dont have time.
Yah,I take big amounts of SP and Fenu.,I alternate other herbs.
Ive been just starting licorice root in the largest safe doses I can do,and keeping watch on myself closely as to that.I know about the breaks for that.
I take alfalfa.Im trying to get hops to try.Im taking soy lecithin.
I take milk thistle all the time.I drink strong fennel and will try adding it into a topical.
My theory is to change around the herb sets at certain times so your body gets different groups of PhyEst's and doesnt get used to anything in particular to cause stall.
I liked Kudzu,its what i first started out on...and i had bought the last bottle the guy had and I need to find somewhere to get more.
It has four or five different isoflavones...PhyEst's.
Maybe thats what kicked off my fast growth spurt when i started.
Im wanting to do another test with it.
Its good for migranes also.And several of the isoflavones are anti-cancer in action also.
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Fennel
(no login) Davilee... August 8 2007, 7:29 AM
I agree with you there. Things that have a generally balancing effect on the hormonal system will not be a good choice for a person who is biologically male and trying to feminize their body. That's why I don't think Barley and Vitex is a good idea for TS girls. Same would apply on progesterone cream if used on a daily basis.
Your idea about alternating between different groups of phytoestrogens is a good idea. The only thing I'd like to add is that stronger PE's probably work most effectively if they aren't taken together with weaker ones.
Just as is the case with Pueraria Mirifica, any other weaker PE's will compete for the space on the estrogen receptors and thus make the PM less effective than it would be if it worked alone, I think this might be the case with the rest of the phytoestrogens too.
A strong phytoestrogen will be weakened if you take it with a weak one, but if several equally weak ones are taken together they might have a great effect. I suggest that when taking lignans, not to mix them with fenugreek liqorice or red clover. Maybe the best effect will be acheived by doing a period of soy products and lecithin, next period with red clover, liqorice and fenugreek, next other types of lignans etc...
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Anon
(no login) Need your help Fennel August 9 2007, 2:43 AM
Could you specify a percentage, or actual dosages of SP, Fennel/Red Clover, and Fennugreek to take? In other words...
3000 SP
2000 Fenugreek
1500 Red Clover/Fennel
Thanks!
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Fennel Fairy
(Login fennelfairy)
SENIOR MEMBER No August 9 2007, 7:04 AM
I don't know what doses you should take really. Perhaps someone else here knows.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) thanks Ms.Fennel..... August 9 2007, 5:56 PM
Uhm hey Anon.....are those Flat2Fem numbers?
I started out going by those.Id start with what she was suggesting.
She has done research on it....so no reason to really pick it apart.
Have you stated out at the lower stage and your going to boost,or have you already done that?
You know its a basic guideline.....and I know theres another boost level after that one you wrote.
I think that im around that set you gave,although Im not taking R.clover.
Im doing some other things.Just testing different ones in diff. combos.
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Anon
(no login) Sorry Davilee, and my Plan August 16 2007, 4:00 AM
I somehow missed this post and just noticed it.
No, those were just numbers I picked out of the air for people to see if the estimate is fine.
The good news is I just started on the long road today. I took 900mg SP, and 610 Fennugreek. I will pick up some Fennel this week, but just wanted to slowly introduce the bod to the herbs.
My Plan:
I am thinking about leveling off at 1800 SP, 1830 Fenugreek and maybe @1800 on Fennel. Does this sound good? Do I need more SP?? And perhaps I will take a week off every month and use just Milk Thistle?
(I am on Soy Lecithen and other soy products daily too). Everyone is so inspiring!
Cheers, to All!
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Davilee
(no login) Hey Anon! August 17 2007, 2:16 AM
OK...well,heres a guideline for ya.
first week...start with one herb,like fenugreek and take 1 cap three times a day and go a couple of days and add another herb and go a couple days and add another,Etc.
That way you can see if any of them cause you any negative reactions.
Go three weeks with the amounts of herbs at this level:
>Red Clover 1050-1125
>Fenugreek 1800-1860
>Saw Palmetto 3240-3600
>OPTIONAL:Fennel 2tsp of crushed seed,(or med. grind it in a small coffee grinder)per cup of water,2-3cups a day.
Continue with this for 1 Month,and watch how you do....pay attention to the sensations of your chest...does any tingling or aches or twinges continue through to the end of your first month or did the sensations go away at some time?.....
For the 2nd month you may want to boost your dosage only if the other dosage isnt having any affect...do this only if sure your not getting results from the other amounts.
If any Prog. is used,use only for 1 week out of the 2nd month and 1/2tsp twice a day(recommended dosage from a established program)
Use Prog. the same way for next months.
Heres another, Licorice.It is one of the four most potent sources of PhytoEST's.Among Soy,Red Clover,Hops.
-Contains Glabridin,Glabrene and 3-hydroxyglabrol and many other phytoestrogenic compounds.
-Glabridin is very similar to Estradiol,the main estrogen responsible for breast development
-It balances Est's,Stimulates prolactin and Blocks testosterone,prevents DHT formation from Test.
***Probably good to wait on this one until you have been in progress for awhile.Then add it in,or swap it in for another herb.
**Read the precautions dont take more than 2-3gr.a day and break at 6-7weeks.
**Can cause hypertension and headaches.
I will give you some info. on other herbs,if you like.
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anon
(no login) This is a good plan August 18 2007, 4:59 AM
Cheers, everyone!
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MBE
(Login mbe1) So many Phytoestrogens! August 18 2007, 5:02 PM
With so many phytoestrogens that are a part of everyone's diet: fennel, hops(beer), flax seeds, and fenugreek - we give licorice to our kids! it is a wonder that anyone stays flat chested!
Is Blessed Thistle the same as Milk Thistle?
______________
www.male-breast-enlargement.org
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Anon
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 19 2007, 4:00 AM
I know what you mean. The young women today all seem to have 'boy-hips' and large racks. They look so disproportional. I like women who have REAL 'hips', like an hourglass. It's the foods and chemicals they eat. And they also develop way earlier than they should.
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Cecilia
(Login Ceciliaptgirl) Licorice August 19 2007, 4:44 PM
As Davilee says:
There seems to be a lot going for Licorice. It also appears to be a pretty healthy thing to take all around. If you do not want to worry about hypertension take it as DGL. It is a lot more expensive, but a lot safer.
I just added it to my routine because I was having some upset stomach. The licorice three times a day has done wonders for that. In this case, I am looking forward to the estro-progesteronic effects as a side benefit.
Sincerely - and with love,
Ceciliaptgirl
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 19 2007, 6:34 PM
What pray tell is 'boy-hips' ??
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Anon
(no login) "What pray tell is 'boy-hips' ?" August 20 2007, 3:13 AM
Hahaha.. I'm sorry I just burst out laughing on that one; you're response hit me in a funny way. (i like reading your posts, if you can't tell) And it's a good question too. The best way to explain it is to give you the "visual"
Picture a beautiful feminine looking woman, with a jaw dropping perky chest 34C, or 34D. Her waist is around 26 and ...."Hips" 30, It essence her hips are underdeveloped. Is all the estrogen just going to their chest?? Where is that Donna Reed "hourglass" shape that we all grew up with?
With all the sources of estrogen out there in the foods we eat now, then why are their hips so narrow??
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 2:25 PM
Is it possible that all the over tight clothes that young girls wear might constrict thier devolopement? Especially while they're in thier growing stages. You see alot of young girls between 12 and 18 wearing these super tight fitting jeans that don't do anything for their figure, although they think they do.
Yesterday, I watched a program called "Vanity Insanity" and they were talking about corsets and how they can train the body to grow a certain way. There was one woman on the show,I think she may have been in her late 50s or Early 60s, anyways she had worn a corset for most of her life and she trained her body to have only a 15" waist. :-0
Just goes to show that young Chickies don't know how unattractive they're making themselves.:-)
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 7:44 PM
well hell, now I'll have to go buy me a corset.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 8:56 PM
He,he,he This transitioning is going to cause to remortage your house. :-D
Yeah, those corsets are expensive, Wow. The one girl that owns a shop that makes them, says that if someone were going to do this they would have to go through a few of them and they would need the reel ones not the ones you you get in the sex shops,walmart and places like that. You'd need the ones that are solid,with the hard plastic ribs in them,that could be laced up. They shouldn't be more than 2 sizes smaller than, that your of natural waist line,after a while you'd move on to a smaller one again and again. This one web site I was on that custom makes them, charge anywhere from 300 to 500 hundred dollars for them. Phew!
The actuall reason I watched the show was they had a segment on about TGs and the silicone injections and another part about a TG girl getting a foot reduction so she would look better in high heels. I didn't think it was possible, but yes, It can be done. Although it's a relatively new procedure, they can do it. This is quite the show,the things people wouln't do for looks.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 9:09 PM
what channel was that on? Was that on Expressvu?
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 9:32 PM
It was on TV Tropolis.I hope I spelled that right! anyways you get the Idea. It's on Sunday nights at 9:00 PM. The show is called Vanity Insanity. It might be on other channels too, I don't know. Maybe you can do a search on it. If you find that it might be on other channels, let me know. I wouldn't mind seeing it again.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 9:37 PM
OH! I get it on Rogers cable, It could be on Bell expressvue.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) HEY,HEY a change on licorice use times.... August 20 2007, 9:47 PM
I miswrote the rest period for licorice...It was supposed to be 7-10 DAYS not weeks... Sorry about that..
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Different suff..... August 20 2007, 10:13 PM
Hey MBE...sorry Ive been off a couple of days...
Yes,as a matter of fact there is some differences...it depends on where the info. is ...they actually seem to be very similar in actions....
Blessed thistle *seems* to be better as an galactagouge and its useful for female disorders..
Milk Thistle *seems* to be the better one for liver conditioning and actual liver cell healing.It also,is good for blood flow into the pelvis and into fibrous tissues,such as the breasts...
SO,its great for several reasons that all work together...first it cleans and detoxifies the liver ..SO ,then the liver can more efficiently process hormones..SO ,then the hormones get to the places they need to go better because the blood flow is better also.
It is an galactagogue also...supposed to work very well when paired with GoatsBeard, fennel, and Hops.
I havent tried that combo yet as i dont think that I was developed enough to utilize that effect.
Id like to know if any women had tried that though...
I may suggest it over yonder and see if someone would like to be a "guinea pig" and try that combo.....it probably only works well for lactating women.
Hey BluJay....Yah I was wanting to look into corsets,real ones not the play ones,..Id like to train my rib cage just a little narrower...I like my narrow waist but Id like it to be even more pronounced.....ya see?
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mbe
(Login mbe1) Thanks for the info Davilee August 21 2007, 8:31 AM
Thanks for clarifying the difference between blessed and milk thistle.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 21 2007, 8:53 AM
I will update when I can find more on their differences.
AND more on Blessed thistle's abilities.
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Lost Sheep
(no login) does MBE affect sperm? February 17 2008, 8:55 PM
hi all, just wanna clarify.I love to have boob, but is it effect my sperm? can i have a child? coz im only 25th this year and getting married soon
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Terilynn
(no login) Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto June 8 2008, 7:52 AM
I have been taking these hurbs along with wild yam
cream and P cream for about five months with great
results as far as my boobs growing but suffer some really
bad headaches. Is this normal?
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Headaches June 8 2008, 9:41 AM
Fenugreek can cause headaches. It also lowers the blood sugar and that causes headaches for certain, so make sure your blood sugar is on a good balanced level all through the day by eating regular meals and have a few snacks during the day. Good slow carbs, not sugary stuff.
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terilynn
(no login) Thank you for the info June 9 2008, 4:23 AM
I appriciate the information. Everyone on here is so great.
another question though. I have been on these hurbs 5 months with some very nice improvement in my breast size but I don't think I have any buds yet? When can I expect that to happen?
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michael
(no login) saw palmetto & fenugreek November 30 2010, 2:33 AM
I am a biological male at 44 years old. I decided I wanted to enhance my breasts when my wife started to play with them during sex. I started taking milk thistle 3 times a day for 2 days then I started saw palmetto 3 times a day with the milk thistle. That went for 2 days and now I added feenugreek 3 times a day. I took my time adding each herb so I could make sure I did not have an alergic reaction to them. I have been massaging my breasts at least 2 times a day when I shower. I am wearing a 40B bra during the day with my wifes blessing to go along with my satin panties. I almost fill it out because I used to be very over weight. I have went from 300 lbs to 223 this year and have noticed my chest. I hope I can enhance and build on what I have. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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michael
(Login mknese) follow up December 27 2010, 4:41 AM
Well after over a month I have run out of herbs. All I have left is a few milk thistle caps. Once they arw gone I plan on ordering some MP from online. I have a little growth. I wear a 40B bra during the day but do not fill it. The bra keeps my nipples from poking through my shirts. They are over sensitive and rubbing a shirt starts to hurt after a while.
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sandra
(no login) feugreek February 3 2011, 1:09 PM
Hi !,
i'm using fenugreek only as saw palmetto interfeers with my blood coagulation medicine...
i use a spoon of 6gr of powder p/day for 1 month, but no results yet...
should i take more ?
greetz
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Monte
(Login monte98) New to this... but really excited about growing May 29 2011, 8:34 AM
Hi to everyone,
I am 40, Male, starting my treatment with herbs, I am currently taking 2400 mg of fenugreek, 1800 saw palmetto and 1200 red clover. I started my treatment about a week ago, I have been doing massages without cream, pushups, exercises in general to stimulate growth. I have felt the ticklish sensation after exercising, maybe it is just the exercise. I want to get sensitivity, maybe reach a cup A, small B. So far I have not had side effects, I am going to keep my dosis at this level for a month, and seen how I feel after that, I was thinking about increasing my dosis for another month if I feel right and after that maybe change one of my herbs for another one... by your experience would you attempt something like that or you guys rather stay on the same for a 6 months then change after seeing changes? I have read about lots of exercises that can be done to stimulate breast growth, one of them been weights and pushups, has anyone tried that?
Thanks for the valuable advice, I wish everyone success with their growings.. I hope to hear your answers...
cheers
Monte
August 2 2007 at 4:38 AM Anon (no login)
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Can a combination of these two herbs be effective for NBE? What would a good dosage be? I have the 610mg bottle of Fennugreek, and the 450 mg of Saw Palmetto. What would be a safe regime? And how long before results started to appear? 9 mos or more?
Also if you come from a family of large chested women, does this help as the genes are in your favor?
Thanks
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Hello and welcome! August 2 2007, 7:15 AM
First of all, is this liquid extract or capsules?
I would add a third herb. Maybe red Clover.
I used fenugreek/fennel/saw palmetto earlier this year and had success with that but I would have taken red clover instead of fennel if I hadn't been allergic to clover. It is a lot more estrogenic than fennel you see. I don't think I needed the saw palmetto, but if you are a biological male or got lots of androgens you will need that too.
As you probably know, saw palmetto will lower your testosterone, fenugreek is both estrogenic and progesteronic and you need to add a third estrogenic item to that I think.
If these are capsules you've got, I'd suggest that you try 2 of each per day to start with, for about a week. Then you can ramp up the dose gradually. If you feel tingles in the breast area during this time, you should stop ramping up and stay on whatever dose you are taking at present because that is the level that's ideal for your growth.
You must never take more than 3600 mg/d of fenugreek.
You must never take more than 5000 mg/d of saw palmetto.
Some people respond to the herbs within a month while others take a lot longer, it's individual. Genetics might play a certain role for your success rate but I'm not an expert.
I hope some of the others here will respond to your post too so you get an idea of what people are taking in general.
Good luck!
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 2 2007, 7:36 AM
"You must never take more than 5000 mg/d of saw palmetto."
Uh oh.. I take a hell of a lot more than that.
What's the consequences?
_______________________________________
http://transhouston.com/members/blog/morticia
_______________________________________
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 2 2007, 8:43 AM
Yes, your age and body weight can determine how long it will take you to see results.
Currently I'm in my 40s and over 200 lbs :-( But I'm going down. So my weight has kind of slowed my progress.
On average, depending on how much and what you take, You can expect to experience some results within three months.
One thing to keep in mind is, that if a genetic female can see some results in a month, It will usually take males twice as long to get results.
I'm currently using PM 1500 mgs Daily with 3x 160 mgs.saw palmetto extract. 1x 1000mgs L- tyrosine ,1000mgs of lysine and 1500 mgs of L-arginine I also take 1x 500mgs.EPO.
Right now, I'm kind of tweaking my program around,Trying some new combinations.
I would suggest trying to use some of the stronger estrogenic herbs Like PM ,Redclover,fenugreek,But you need to control your androgens, so the saw palmetto is a good choice.
To get the right dosage is something you'll have to work on by starting low and working your way up until you find the correct amount that works for you. Your starting point should be what it says on your bottle.
I hope this helps.Besides that we're always here if you need more help.
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) To Morticia: August 2 2007, 7:36 PM
Saw Palmetto side effects:
cramping
nausea
vomiting
diarrhea
headache
stomach ulcer
liver damage
I guess you'll need to take Milk Thistle on a regular basis to protect your liver if you take very large amounts. Normal use shouldn't be harmful though.
Read more here:
http://www.nutritional-supplements-healt...fects.html
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Anon
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 4:07 AM
The Fenugreek says "Fenugreek Seed". It is in a capsule. The Saw Palmetto is SP Berry, Serenoa repens:fruit. What I have no idea what that means!!
But if I add Red Clover and just stay on really low dosages, would it just take a few months longer to grow? Or is it too low to have any effect?
And the big question... if I lower my testosterone levels to grow, and do grow over say, over the next 6 months.... then I stop the herbs, would my testosterone levels go back to normal? Would I be the same person from before? Or have I altered my body chemistry forever? Would I see breast growth before hip and other female growth??
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 5:57 AM
Hard to say.. Everyone is different.
I'm 8 months into this now and I'm definitely feminine looking now. So much so that I'm sure I've passed the point of no return. My tits have reached a point that I don't see how it could be possible for them to just go away. Not without surgery. The rest of me, it's maybe possible but it would take some work to make my feminine features to go away. I don't think it would be easy to reverse what I've accomplished so far and with each day I get further and further away from the point of no return.
In other words, "I'm not the man I used to be.."
Be aware though, I started out on a low dose and had the delusion that I just wanted to grow some "secret boobies" and stop. HA! Yeah right..
Now I'm taking large doses of the stuff and I'm committed for life to this. I'll never stop taking my whore-moans.
_______________________________________
http://transhouston.com/members/blog/morticia
_______________________________________
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 7:30 AM
Two capsules of each per day would be a good starting dose. I don't know how much of the red clover you need to take though.
If you take them for six months you might get dramatic results or very subtle results depending on your body so no one can really tell. However, should you stop taking the herbs after that, your body will start to raise its testosterone levels again gradually but the changes that have happened (breast growth mainly) will probably stay permanent.
You'd better think long and hard on this since it's somewhat irreversible.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 8:29 AM
Yes,after doing this for about 6 months, and you realize that this is not for you , you should quit. If you continue after the six months, it starts to become irreversible.
EG: Lets say if you have done this for a year or so and you have grown some breasts to a full A cup or a B cup,then you decide that this isn't for you, Well, then there isn't much you can do about it anymore.After you quit,Your breasts might deflate a bit but the growth will stay. Then the only option would be surgery.
The other thing to keep in mind is taking hormones for a longer period of time can be addictive. There are many who have taken hormones for a while,just to see what it was like,without any intention of transforming and ended up not quiting and going all the way.
My oppinion about the red clover is that,being a male, you need to take a minimum of a 1000mgs.a day and if you don't want to take more than that,You should combine it with another estrogenic herb.EG; fenugreek,fennel,hops or flax seed oil. There are several more you can choose from.
The Key is to find the right combination that works for you.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 8:44 AM
Oh, and it will make you sterile too....
Put a little something in the bank if you want to have kids in the future.
_______________________________________
http://transhouston.com/members/blog/morticia
_______________________________________
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Just to clarify August 3 2007, 9:29 AM
One thing I also like to mention Is that the info.I had posted is what one could expect on 'average'. Some males could respond quicker and some could respond alot slower.
So like Fennel Fairy said, It's hard to say.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 3 2007, 7:49 PM
There's a Tgirl on Susan's that has been trying for 7 years to grow boobs and she's flat as a board.
She's very frustrated because she tried herbals and now she's been on synthetic estrogens for 7 years and not a single bit of development. She's tried everything you can imagine, been to doctors, etc..
Nothing. Apparently there's something in her genes that preventing her from growing breasts.
Except for not having any boobies, she's otherwise very feminine looking, she's pretty darn good looking and passes really well.
We're all different. We all develop differently. Some do, some don't.
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Anon
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 4 2007, 4:59 AM
Nope... I wouldn't mind permanent breast changes and a little on the 'caboose'. Breasts have been part of my identity for a long time. However I would stop around a full A cup, or maybe a very small B. And some folks think I could use a little weight anyhow; it'll make the panties fit better. I just want to do this in the most healthy way possible if I decide.
I only wonder what it would feel like to have these wonderful objects swinging around as you move about? Morticia is getting up there in size, and Fennel has grown to a full and proud "C". That has to be an awesome feeling.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 4 2007, 8:17 AM
Well, mine aren't "swinging" yet but they jiggle a little.
It's nice. When I sit on the edge of the bed at night and I look down I see a female body, female legs and TITS..
It's nice......
I still don't hold a candle, much less a match to a genetic female and probably never will but shedding the male form and becoming more female is a very pleasant experience. I like this a lot. Nothing in my life has ever been more "right" than this. It just feels right. I want so bad to be completely female in every way possible but I know it's not going to happen. But I'm going to try like hell.
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Yes but... August 4 2007, 8:17 AM
My results don't count though, because I am a biological female to start with. I am surfing while you are rowing upstreams. It must be a hell of a lot easier for me to do this I reckon. Still, there are girls on these boards who were born female and still don't grow breasts whatever they try so yeah...
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 8 2007, 6:22 AM
Flax seed oil as Ive read in some places, is not useful for any hormone effects,the ground flax seed must be eaten.
However Ive also read that flax is a estrogen balancer because of its high levels of lignans.
It will either raise natural estrogen if its too low or it will utilize and promote incoming estrogens if that is needed.
It will also lower estrogen levels if they are too high.
This is what bothered me. If it uses T as a benchmark in the male body then flax will lower any estrogen it deems excessive.
Does this make sense?
Ive been wanting to do some more checking on this,but dont have time.
Yah,I take big amounts of SP and Fenu.,I alternate other herbs.
Ive been just starting licorice root in the largest safe doses I can do,and keeping watch on myself closely as to that.I know about the breaks for that.
I take alfalfa.Im trying to get hops to try.Im taking soy lecithin.
I take milk thistle all the time.I drink strong fennel and will try adding it into a topical.
My theory is to change around the herb sets at certain times so your body gets different groups of PhyEst's and doesnt get used to anything in particular to cause stall.
I liked Kudzu,its what i first started out on...and i had bought the last bottle the guy had and I need to find somewhere to get more.
It has four or five different isoflavones...PhyEst's.
Maybe thats what kicked off my fast growth spurt when i started.
Im wanting to do another test with it.
Its good for migranes also.And several of the isoflavones are anti-cancer in action also.
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Fennel
(no login) Davilee... August 8 2007, 7:29 AM
I agree with you there. Things that have a generally balancing effect on the hormonal system will not be a good choice for a person who is biologically male and trying to feminize their body. That's why I don't think Barley and Vitex is a good idea for TS girls. Same would apply on progesterone cream if used on a daily basis.
Your idea about alternating between different groups of phytoestrogens is a good idea. The only thing I'd like to add is that stronger PE's probably work most effectively if they aren't taken together with weaker ones.
Just as is the case with Pueraria Mirifica, any other weaker PE's will compete for the space on the estrogen receptors and thus make the PM less effective than it would be if it worked alone, I think this might be the case with the rest of the phytoestrogens too.
A strong phytoestrogen will be weakened if you take it with a weak one, but if several equally weak ones are taken together they might have a great effect. I suggest that when taking lignans, not to mix them with fenugreek liqorice or red clover. Maybe the best effect will be acheived by doing a period of soy products and lecithin, next period with red clover, liqorice and fenugreek, next other types of lignans etc...
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Anon
(no login) Need your help Fennel August 9 2007, 2:43 AM
Could you specify a percentage, or actual dosages of SP, Fennel/Red Clover, and Fennugreek to take? In other words...
3000 SP
2000 Fenugreek
1500 Red Clover/Fennel
Thanks!
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Fennel Fairy
(Login fennelfairy)
SENIOR MEMBER No August 9 2007, 7:04 AM
I don't know what doses you should take really. Perhaps someone else here knows.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) thanks Ms.Fennel..... August 9 2007, 5:56 PM
Uhm hey Anon.....are those Flat2Fem numbers?
I started out going by those.Id start with what she was suggesting.
She has done research on it....so no reason to really pick it apart.
Have you stated out at the lower stage and your going to boost,or have you already done that?
You know its a basic guideline.....and I know theres another boost level after that one you wrote.
I think that im around that set you gave,although Im not taking R.clover.
Im doing some other things.Just testing different ones in diff. combos.
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Anon
(no login) Sorry Davilee, and my Plan August 16 2007, 4:00 AM
I somehow missed this post and just noticed it.
No, those were just numbers I picked out of the air for people to see if the estimate is fine.
The good news is I just started on the long road today. I took 900mg SP, and 610 Fennugreek. I will pick up some Fennel this week, but just wanted to slowly introduce the bod to the herbs.
My Plan:
I am thinking about leveling off at 1800 SP, 1830 Fenugreek and maybe @1800 on Fennel. Does this sound good? Do I need more SP?? And perhaps I will take a week off every month and use just Milk Thistle?
(I am on Soy Lecithen and other soy products daily too). Everyone is so inspiring!
Cheers, to All!
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Davilee
(no login) Hey Anon! August 17 2007, 2:16 AM
OK...well,heres a guideline for ya.
first week...start with one herb,like fenugreek and take 1 cap three times a day and go a couple of days and add another herb and go a couple days and add another,Etc.
That way you can see if any of them cause you any negative reactions.
Go three weeks with the amounts of herbs at this level:
>Red Clover 1050-1125
>Fenugreek 1800-1860
>Saw Palmetto 3240-3600
>OPTIONAL:Fennel 2tsp of crushed seed,(or med. grind it in a small coffee grinder)per cup of water,2-3cups a day.
Continue with this for 1 Month,and watch how you do....pay attention to the sensations of your chest...does any tingling or aches or twinges continue through to the end of your first month or did the sensations go away at some time?.....
For the 2nd month you may want to boost your dosage only if the other dosage isnt having any affect...do this only if sure your not getting results from the other amounts.
If any Prog. is used,use only for 1 week out of the 2nd month and 1/2tsp twice a day(recommended dosage from a established program)
Use Prog. the same way for next months.
Heres another, Licorice.It is one of the four most potent sources of PhytoEST's.Among Soy,Red Clover,Hops.
-Contains Glabridin,Glabrene and 3-hydroxyglabrol and many other phytoestrogenic compounds.
-Glabridin is very similar to Estradiol,the main estrogen responsible for breast development
-It balances Est's,Stimulates prolactin and Blocks testosterone,prevents DHT formation from Test.
***Probably good to wait on this one until you have been in progress for awhile.Then add it in,or swap it in for another herb.
**Read the precautions dont take more than 2-3gr.a day and break at 6-7weeks.
**Can cause hypertension and headaches.
I will give you some info. on other herbs,if you like.
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anon
(no login) This is a good plan August 18 2007, 4:59 AM
Cheers, everyone!
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MBE
(Login mbe1) So many Phytoestrogens! August 18 2007, 5:02 PM
With so many phytoestrogens that are a part of everyone's diet: fennel, hops(beer), flax seeds, and fenugreek - we give licorice to our kids! it is a wonder that anyone stays flat chested!
Is Blessed Thistle the same as Milk Thistle?
______________
www.male-breast-enlargement.org
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Anon
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 19 2007, 4:00 AM
I know what you mean. The young women today all seem to have 'boy-hips' and large racks. They look so disproportional. I like women who have REAL 'hips', like an hourglass. It's the foods and chemicals they eat. And they also develop way earlier than they should.
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Cecilia
(Login Ceciliaptgirl) Licorice August 19 2007, 4:44 PM
As Davilee says:
There seems to be a lot going for Licorice. It also appears to be a pretty healthy thing to take all around. If you do not want to worry about hypertension take it as DGL. It is a lot more expensive, but a lot safer.
I just added it to my routine because I was having some upset stomach. The licorice three times a day has done wonders for that. In this case, I am looking forward to the estro-progesteronic effects as a side benefit.
Sincerely - and with love,
Ceciliaptgirl
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 19 2007, 6:34 PM
What pray tell is 'boy-hips' ??
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Anon
(no login) "What pray tell is 'boy-hips' ?" August 20 2007, 3:13 AM
Hahaha.. I'm sorry I just burst out laughing on that one; you're response hit me in a funny way. (i like reading your posts, if you can't tell) And it's a good question too. The best way to explain it is to give you the "visual"
Picture a beautiful feminine looking woman, with a jaw dropping perky chest 34C, or 34D. Her waist is around 26 and ...."Hips" 30, It essence her hips are underdeveloped. Is all the estrogen just going to their chest?? Where is that Donna Reed "hourglass" shape that we all grew up with?
With all the sources of estrogen out there in the foods we eat now, then why are their hips so narrow??
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 2:25 PM
Is it possible that all the over tight clothes that young girls wear might constrict thier devolopement? Especially while they're in thier growing stages. You see alot of young girls between 12 and 18 wearing these super tight fitting jeans that don't do anything for their figure, although they think they do.
Yesterday, I watched a program called "Vanity Insanity" and they were talking about corsets and how they can train the body to grow a certain way. There was one woman on the show,I think she may have been in her late 50s or Early 60s, anyways she had worn a corset for most of her life and she trained her body to have only a 15" waist. :-0
Just goes to show that young Chickies don't know how unattractive they're making themselves.:-)
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 7:44 PM
well hell, now I'll have to go buy me a corset.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 8:56 PM
He,he,he This transitioning is going to cause to remortage your house. :-D
Yeah, those corsets are expensive, Wow. The one girl that owns a shop that makes them, says that if someone were going to do this they would have to go through a few of them and they would need the reel ones not the ones you you get in the sex shops,walmart and places like that. You'd need the ones that are solid,with the hard plastic ribs in them,that could be laced up. They shouldn't be more than 2 sizes smaller than, that your of natural waist line,after a while you'd move on to a smaller one again and again. This one web site I was on that custom makes them, charge anywhere from 300 to 500 hundred dollars for them. Phew!
The actuall reason I watched the show was they had a segment on about TGs and the silicone injections and another part about a TG girl getting a foot reduction so she would look better in high heels. I didn't think it was possible, but yes, It can be done. Although it's a relatively new procedure, they can do it. This is quite the show,the things people wouln't do for looks.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 9:09 PM
what channel was that on? Was that on Expressvu?
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 9:32 PM
It was on TV Tropolis.I hope I spelled that right! anyways you get the Idea. It's on Sunday nights at 9:00 PM. The show is called Vanity Insanity. It might be on other channels too, I don't know. Maybe you can do a search on it. If you find that it might be on other channels, let me know. I wouldn't mind seeing it again.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 20 2007, 9:37 PM
OH! I get it on Rogers cable, It could be on Bell expressvue.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) HEY,HEY a change on licorice use times.... August 20 2007, 9:47 PM
I miswrote the rest period for licorice...It was supposed to be 7-10 DAYS not weeks... Sorry about that..
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Different suff..... August 20 2007, 10:13 PM
Hey MBE...sorry Ive been off a couple of days...
Yes,as a matter of fact there is some differences...it depends on where the info. is ...they actually seem to be very similar in actions....
Blessed thistle *seems* to be better as an galactagouge and its useful for female disorders..
Milk Thistle *seems* to be the better one for liver conditioning and actual liver cell healing.It also,is good for blood flow into the pelvis and into fibrous tissues,such as the breasts...
SO,its great for several reasons that all work together...first it cleans and detoxifies the liver ..SO ,then the liver can more efficiently process hormones..SO ,then the hormones get to the places they need to go better because the blood flow is better also.
It is an galactagogue also...supposed to work very well when paired with GoatsBeard, fennel, and Hops.
I havent tried that combo yet as i dont think that I was developed enough to utilize that effect.
Id like to know if any women had tried that though...
I may suggest it over yonder and see if someone would like to be a "guinea pig" and try that combo.....it probably only works well for lactating women.
Hey BluJay....Yah I was wanting to look into corsets,real ones not the play ones,..Id like to train my rib cage just a little narrower...I like my narrow waist but Id like it to be even more pronounced.....ya see?
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mbe
(Login mbe1) Thanks for the info Davilee August 21 2007, 8:31 AM
Thanks for clarifying the difference between blessed and milk thistle.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto August 21 2007, 8:53 AM
I will update when I can find more on their differences.
AND more on Blessed thistle's abilities.
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Lost Sheep
(no login) does MBE affect sperm? February 17 2008, 8:55 PM
hi all, just wanna clarify.I love to have boob, but is it effect my sperm? can i have a child? coz im only 25th this year and getting married soon
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Terilynn
(no login) Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto June 8 2008, 7:52 AM
I have been taking these hurbs along with wild yam
cream and P cream for about five months with great
results as far as my boobs growing but suffer some really
bad headaches. Is this normal?
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Headaches June 8 2008, 9:41 AM
Fenugreek can cause headaches. It also lowers the blood sugar and that causes headaches for certain, so make sure your blood sugar is on a good balanced level all through the day by eating regular meals and have a few snacks during the day. Good slow carbs, not sugary stuff.
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terilynn
(no login) Thank you for the info June 9 2008, 4:23 AM
I appriciate the information. Everyone on here is so great.
another question though. I have been on these hurbs 5 months with some very nice improvement in my breast size but I don't think I have any buds yet? When can I expect that to happen?
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michael
(no login) saw palmetto & fenugreek November 30 2010, 2:33 AM
I am a biological male at 44 years old. I decided I wanted to enhance my breasts when my wife started to play with them during sex. I started taking milk thistle 3 times a day for 2 days then I started saw palmetto 3 times a day with the milk thistle. That went for 2 days and now I added feenugreek 3 times a day. I took my time adding each herb so I could make sure I did not have an alergic reaction to them. I have been massaging my breasts at least 2 times a day when I shower. I am wearing a 40B bra during the day with my wifes blessing to go along with my satin panties. I almost fill it out because I used to be very over weight. I have went from 300 lbs to 223 this year and have noticed my chest. I hope I can enhance and build on what I have. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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michael
(Login mknese) follow up December 27 2010, 4:41 AM
Well after over a month I have run out of herbs. All I have left is a few milk thistle caps. Once they arw gone I plan on ordering some MP from online. I have a little growth. I wear a 40B bra during the day but do not fill it. The bra keeps my nipples from poking through my shirts. They are over sensitive and rubbing a shirt starts to hurt after a while.
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sandra
(no login) feugreek February 3 2011, 1:09 PM
Hi !,
i'm using fenugreek only as saw palmetto interfeers with my blood coagulation medicine...
i use a spoon of 6gr of powder p/day for 1 month, but no results yet...
should i take more ?
greetz
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Monte
(Login monte98) New to this... but really excited about growing May 29 2011, 8:34 AM
Hi to everyone,
I am 40, Male, starting my treatment with herbs, I am currently taking 2400 mg of fenugreek, 1800 saw palmetto and 1200 red clover. I started my treatment about a week ago, I have been doing massages without cream, pushups, exercises in general to stimulate growth. I have felt the ticklish sensation after exercising, maybe it is just the exercise. I want to get sensitivity, maybe reach a cup A, small B. So far I have not had side effects, I am going to keep my dosis at this level for a month, and seen how I feel after that, I was thinking about increasing my dosis for another month if I feel right and after that maybe change one of my herbs for another one... by your experience would you attempt something like that or you guys rather stay on the same for a 6 months then change after seeing changes? I have read about lots of exercises that can be done to stimulate breast growth, one of them been weights and pushups, has anyone tried that?
Thanks for the valuable advice, I wish everyone success with their growings.. I hope to hear your answers...
cheers
Monte