17-09-2011, 10:39 AM
Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you
October 28 2007 at 4:18 AM Davilee (Login Davata)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im sorry I forgot about writing that in the other topic line when You asked.
>beta-carotene
>beta-sitosterol
>coumarin
>diosgenin
>kaempferol
>luteolin
>p-coumaric acid
>quercetin
>rutin
>saponin
>trigonelline
>vitexin
------------------
Nutrients:
>amino acids
>calcium
>EPO's
>folate
>iron
>magnesium
>manganese
>phosphorus
>potassium
>selenium
>zinc
>Vit.B1,B2,B3,C
Hope this helps you.
------------------------------
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
Author Reply
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you October 28 2007, 9:21 AM
Thanks, most interesting that it should contain coumestrol, also found in soy and I think PM. Not sure that diosgenin does much in the body. Thought the saponins were active but will have to do more reading.
Good thing it's got all those other things - just turns out my meds can give low metabolites
Davilee
(Login Davata) Diosgenin and other things.... October 30 2007, 6:53 AM
Actually diosgenin is found in wild yam (Dioscorea) and is one of the more powerful isoflavones. It is what the majority of the compounded natural estriols and natural progesterones are made from,at least from what I've read.
Wild yam and fenugreek are both very high in it,and they both are used to sythesize the concentrated form of diosgenin that is used in USP progesterone amd USP estriol. Thats what the papers that came with my Prog said.
And I've read that in other articles also.
Hey!! what do you know about coumestrol Louise??
This is very important,I got some info out of the archives in the herb library info.within this site.
It listed coumestrol as being more powerful than natural estradiol,on effecting estrogen receptor binding activity.
I will list the strongest ones in the study.
****A rating of over 400 means greater than ER(est. receptor) binding activity of estradiol!!!!***
>coumestrol 2500
>Licorice 1600
>Red clover 3000
>Yucca 2600
>Mistletoe 500
>White clover 500
>Damiana 200
>Nutmeg 200
>Motherwort over 400, amount
I havent had time to start looking up info. on coumesterol yet,Im working on aromatase enzyme stimulation and beta-sitosterol functions as to that.
I will get a link to the whole series of studies in the archive.
It's listed as "Estrogen receptor binding activity and stimulation of cell proliferation in breast cancer cells."
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you October 30 2007, 11:20 PM
Ok, so here's some stuff I collected a while ago based on isoflavones in soy but think PM has a similar profile:
"The phytoestrogens coumestrol, genistein, genistin, daidzein, daidzin and naringenin were relatively more potent with ERâ. Ranking of the estrogenic potency with ERa was: 17â-estradiol >> 8-prenylnaringenin > coumestrol > zearalenone >> genistein >> genistin > naringenin. The ranking with the ERâ was: 17â-estradiol >> coumestrol > genistein > zearalenone > 8-prenylnaringen >> daidzein > naringenin > genistin >> daidzin. The hop estrogen 8-prenylnaringenin is relatively more potent with ERa. These data show that the newly developed bioassays are valuable tools for the rapid and high-throughput screening for estrogenic activity."
"Some phytoestrogens such as coumestrol, genistein, apigenin, naringenin, and kaempferol compete stronger with E2 for binding to ER beta than to ER alpha. Estrogenic chemicals, as for instance nonylphenol, bisphenol A, o, p'-DDT and 2',4',6'-trichloro-4-biphenylol stimulate the transcriptional activity of ER alpha and ER beta at concentrations of 100-1000 nM. Phytoestrogens, including genistein, coumestrol and zearalenone stimulate the transcriptional activity of both ER subtypes at concentrations of 1-10 nM. The ranking of the estrogenic potency of phytoestrogens for both ER subtypes in the transactivation assay is different; that is, E2 >> zearalenone = coumestrol > genistein > daidzein > apigenin = phloretin > biochanin A = kaempferol = naringenin > formononetin = ipriflavone = quercetin = chrysin for ER alpha and E2 >> genistein = coumestrol > zearalenone > daidzein > biochanin A = apigenin = kaempferol = naringenin > phloretin = quercetin = ipriflavone = formononetin = chrysin for ER beta. Antiestrogenic activity of the phytoestrogens could not be detected, except for zearalenone which is a full agonist for ER alpha and a mixed agonist-antagonist for ER beta. In summary, while the estrogenic potency of industrial-derived estrogenic chemicals is very limited, the estrogenic potency of phytoestrogens is significant, especially for ER beta, and they may trigger many of the biological responses that are evoked by the physiological estrogens."
"This study examines the effects of dietary soy supplementation on the proliferation rate of premenopausal, histologically normal breast epithelium and the expression of progesterone receptor. ....... The proliferation rate of breast lobular epithelium significantly increased after 14 days of soy supplementation when both the day of menstrual cycle and the age of patient were accounted for. Progesterone receptor expression increased significantly in the soy group. Short-term dietary soy stimulates breast proliferation"
"The aglycones and any bacterial metabolites are absorbed from the intestinal tract and conjugated mainly to glucuronic acid; then they undergo enterohepatic recycling. Intestinal metabolism is essential for their subsequent absorption and bioavailability because there is no evidence to support absorption of the conjugated forms of isoflavones. Furthermore, it is the aglycones that show an affinity for estrogen receptors and have other nonhormonal effects on the cell machinery."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you have to remember though is that just because the phytoestrogens compete strongly for the receptor doesn't mean they act as potently when bound, I've read somewhere that phytoestrogens have a low affinity for the breast and uterus which is what made me think that perhaps if the phytoestrogens block the receptors elsewhere then there is more natural estrogen to go to the breast and uterus, this would also explain stalling as you get to a saturated point where you've filled the breast receptors too.
p.s. coumestrol isn't an isoflavone it's a coumestan or something but stil a phytoestrogen
p.p.s also interesting about the diosgenin, I'd just about written off wild yam as having any use outside the lab - how come fenugreek is so much more effective? Is it the saponins?
Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you October 31 2007, 7:40 AM
Very good info.
Yeah,I knew coumestrol is not a isoflavone.I found my list of the four different subclasses of isoflavones.
The research I have seen about ER binding was making a point that the PE's were interfering and stopping the estradiol fueled cancers in breast and prostate cells.So,that doesn't seem like they are less effective on breast and prostate tissues to me,from what I've read..if they can block out estradiol binding.
It was genistein,coumestrol,and one other odd named chemical that I cant recall..these were the most effective ones..but another study named more than these.
So,coumarin and P-coumaric acid are coumestrols?
The point to that one study I was reading, was that there were many Pchems that are more efective at est receptor binding than estradiol...how else could the Pchems do what they do,,, they have to displace the indigenous estrogen in some way.
I just posted a link,on the other forum,to a study done on just that topic.
It seems isoflavones arent as efficient at displacing estradiol.
Glabradene from licorice is molecularly similar to estradiol and it causes the same actions as estradiol.I think it's glabradene,there are so many chemicals in licorice.
However,estriol is never mentioned in these studies.I'm getting more interested in it,I need to learn more about it...what all it does,or can do.
Maybe I'm just missing something in what you wrote,I need to reread it.
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you October 31 2007, 6:15 PM
I really hate to point this out - it sounds like I'm such a bitch but I think you mean endogenous not indigenous, it really makes me giggle every time I see that, like native Americans or Aborigines are the indigenous people! Hope you can see the funny side!
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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 7 2007, 8:55 PM
Oh Yeah!! Hahahah..I get in a hurry and I dont think about some spellings sometimes..you are so right.....no its no problem that you pointed that out......it just reinforces to me that I need to chose my spelling better....I write when Im tired and thats what I get.
Hey,while we are on the subject of mistakes.how does one go back and change a post??
I see posts that say, "SO&SO has edited this message on XXXX"
How do I change content in a post??
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 7 2007, 9:47 PM
I think you need to apply to Eve for senior membership, then you can edit. Not sure if you do that by emailing the link on the front page - it came up on the main forum about a month or so ago if you want to have a look.
Glad you're posting again!
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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 11 2007, 12:47 PM
Wow thats some nice info in that research quotation,what is the source for that,,like what's the website? Google scholar?
Im love the techy stuff,Im getting better at recognising chemicals and such,and recalling what they do.
Biochanin is the other p-chem that blocks estradiol molecules......P-chems are being recommended to be used to block the Xenoestrogenics from binding Est.Receptors and causing all kinds of craziness.
I have some neat stuff as to Red Clover,it is high in coumestrol also...its one of a very few herbs that contain the exact chem. coumestrol.
I have some negative things about Soy also,I will list in a topic listing.
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 11 2007, 6:43 PM
I was quite impressed with RC too! Right up there with soy and PM, have got the powder but not taken any yet. When the DMSO finally arrives I will be putting an interesting theory to test (sadly using myself as guinea pig!). Do you know the exact aminos that are required for boob growth or would it be best just to get a supplement with as many as possible? Do you know of anything herbal for local fat burning? Was going to give lecithin a go. Also what exactly is the boobie reason for using vitamin E? It says on the bottle that it helps burn fats or something - have bought some but not sure why everyone's using it!
Am I right that combining RC with fenugreek is a bad idea?
What were your starting and current measurements? Out of interest how tall are you and what are you waist hip and thigh measurements? I'm trying to compare everyone as starting to think I may have a body image issue!
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 11 2007, 6:49 PM
p.s. I'm afraid I didn't take down the sites I got that stuff from or the key words I used in google - usually better organised! I did copy and paste every thing that was NBE relevant though so I didn't keep the addresses as I wouldn't need to go back there. Just putting genistein into google came up with some interesting stuff. I'd be interested to hear your negative soy info, I'm taking WU and then about 1g soy powder in food every day. Have tried boobie tea a couple of times with 1g goat's rue, 1g barley grass, 0.5g 10:1 hops extract and a spearmint and chamomile teabag. I'm really not sure how much I'm actually absorbing from my diet while the metformin is messing with my stomach lining so I intend to try the DMSO route as that should bypass the digestive process. Brava seems to be the thing that's working for me.
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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 13 2007, 3:46 AM
Whooo....a lot of querys dere..hahaha.....I will have to do some seeking for some of the answers about the Vit's and amino acids....
*actually* though....you should get as many as possible anyway..its not going to hurt you....you have to really TRY to overdose on amino acids..and that would be like taking 4-5 grams pure Arginine tablets....that can cause some problems... If you take A LOT of a particular amino acid by itself then a may cause some side effects.
Lysine is okay to take a lot of,you cant really over do it. Its great for the immune system. I will get back to that when I can find my book on amino acids. I would take a powdered mix that supplies amino acids,thats what I do.
Hey...actually there should be a bunch of info I wrote to Morticia and Blu-Jay all about the fat burning and energy boosting stuff....look back for a thread on HGH and related things....OR if you cant find it I will look for it..because knowing how things are it's not titiled as what it's about.
I loose more good info in the archives because I cant find it again.
My stats are :
I am 5'9"....Im actually getting shorter...weird....
I weigh around 146-147....I was 133 pounds when I started, (thats what the herbs have done for me also)...I'm not sure how much I want to gain as I am loosing my waist now.....blaaaaah!!!
I started out with a 29" waist,and 36.5" hips and my thighs..uhm Im not sure what they were when I started..but they are several inches bigger Im sure..because they have filled out so much and they touch together now when I stand with my knees close together..I have the female type leg angles,as I have a wideish pelvic girdle.
Weeeell,...Now....I have a 31" waist(crap!!..HAHA)
...38+ hips..WOW!!(I just measured myself)...NOW thats cool!..I think its my rear getting bigger all the time...
....my thighs are almost 22"
My chest and breast stats...
..are at start:32" below breast and that is almost exactly the same now.
..around my chest/breasts area, I started out 35" and now is 37.5"...I know that some is fat gains...but my breasts are much bigger than they were when I started. They are starting to get rounder now.
I want to have a 10" difference in my waist from my hips....eventually....I will need to lose weight from my waist ...that sounds so funny as I have never been overweight,I have always tried gaining weight but never could just from eating food.
Oh there are several weight loss herbs...I started working on a list for a friend and I need to find it as I hadnt finished it yet.
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 13 2007, 10:40 PM
Damn! You're a lot taller than I thought! Again more of a model build....where can I find someone short and in proportion to compare to? Going to have a look at aminos tomorrow - any that should be avoided? I try to avoid ingesting vitamin E as I may have a congenital eye disease for which vitamin A may help and vitamin E worsen. Have you tried hypnosis (or a corset) for the waist? I used to be 23-24 waist and 36-37 hips, for some reason I'm now 25 waist and 35.5 hips - think this could be either the hormone probs trying to turn me into a man or my intensely wishing that my hips and waist would be more similar to make me look less bottom heavy - I think the power of the mind might do more than we think but not sure exactly how....I make sure I put my flaky comments on this side of the board! SOY = SUCCESS!!
Davilee
(Login Davata) LOL!!! Louise..... November 14 2007, 11:11 AM
OH girl..you make me laugh....
"put the flaky stuff on this side of the board"..HAHAHA!! :-D
SOY=SUCCESS!! HAHA... thats neato....
Well,you probably wont meet someone more flakier than me,I'll tell ya....
Yes,the mind is an amazing and powerful thing...its so marvelous..
I agree wholeheartedly about concentration and meditation and hypnosis,,which is just a very precise concentration method...and the Qigong subjects.
Its all connected....but,we have to figure out the best ways to utilize these things for the best benefits...
I can concentrate very well,and I can get into intentions very strongly if I really apply myself. I just keep thinking that I'm not doing or thinking strongly enough....like Im not putting enough will into it.
But,the feminisation is all I really concentrate on.
So,I have to go the next step and try the focused concentration method like hypnosis or just getting more involved into the chi energy work.
What is your height?
I figure Im an average male height....but I cant believe how many girls I have come across that are taller than I am.Geez,they make me feel like a shorty..hahhaha....I bet they weigh more than I do too,thats a consolation for me. HAHAHA.. I'm starting to get worried about my weight now..great..thats all I need....something else to worry about controlling...it wasnt so bad awhile back.I liked the gaining...its great,it has really filled me out and rounded and smoothed my body.....but NOW my waist is getting TOO filled out now....it sucks...
HAHAHA...we sound similar...we both want less waist and more hips..well,I dont know if you want more hips or not,but I do....
My butt is growing quite well and continuously,my thighs and legs are getting bigger and nicer....I just cant seem to get the fat to accumulate quicker on one area of my hips.
If I can start doing that then I'd be sooooo happy and really look great,on my way to the voluptuous body I wanted.
!!!OH YES!! Corsets! I want to get one so bad....I think that would help me out....just one that fits the ribcage and waist, not all the way down.
I think that Stefanie may be shorter,Im not sure....so dont quote me.
She hasnt been around lately,so I havent talked to her to see how she was doing. I should write her a letter.
Do you want me to ask her how tall she is?? She'd be glad to talk to you.
Oh,that problem with soy is that it interferes with two enzymes produced by the pancreas. Thats unfermented soy.
Hey,Im going to start taking soy isoflavones in a pill or capsule form....that should circumvent any problems.
I just dont know how effective they are by themselves.Im going to try them and see.
Soy=Success!! ;-)
I think it helped me alot when I have taken soy milk regularly.
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 14 2007, 7:28 PM
I'm 5'1 so even for biological female I'm stunted! Luckily in the UK there are smaller people than in the US. I was 135 lbs and 32B, then went down to 120 lbs (got married) and lost a fair bit in terms of boobs, now 106 lbs and full 32B/C. My waist has stayed at 25 throughout the NBE, my underbust has possibly got a bit smaller, hips about 0.5 inch smaller (have always had huge ass!) but just left with fat thighs, 21 inches is fine for a model if she's 5'8 but just out of proportion (although looks ok with clothes on - worried I'm getting body image issues!). I seem to have got about 0.5 inch extra boobs this week so really hope this doesn't all fade away to nothing when I finally put the Brava away. At the moment I'm truly amazed at what NBE can do, I only really bought Brava to prove to myself that it wouldn't work...now if I can just stick to the exercises the personal trainer has given me maybe I can finally have something to be proud of.
Not sure what the whole thing with soy milk is as it's 5% soy and the rest water (not saying that I don't use it though!), I make boobie porridge out of oats, oat based ceral, about 0.25 teaspoon soy powder (10% isoflavones), 0.3 cup soy milk, tinned fruit, protein shake powder, then maybe add some barley grains and warm it in the microwave - it's really not bad esp with choc chips!
You mention Stephanie SS - I noticed she hadn't been around for a while, hope everything's ok.
Going to give body wrapping a go in conjunction with exercises - will let you know if I suddenly hit the jackpot....oh, and in terms of corsets make sure it goes right high up otherwise you get a little roll but it makes such a difference and if you do it tight long term use actually trains your body (although I think it's bad for you as it pushes your internal organs around - google smallest waist)
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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 16 2007, 7:05 AM
Ya put chocolate chips in anything makes it better.
well,maybe thats overstating it a bit....Anything thats related to pastries.
;-) Mmmmmmm..choclate chip scones...Mmmmmmmm
I use that Edensoy Organic original plain....it has 69%+/- isoflavones per oz.
Its the highest level of any soymilk Ive seen.
I bought a 30 pound bag of organic soybeans so I could make my own soy products. It cost about 15.00 at my local healthnut store.
I havent taken time to start preparing any soymilk or anything yet.I have a good book about soy cooking. Making soymilk and soy butter and etc.
Thanks for the corset suggestions...any info is appreciated,dear.
OMG....I wished I had a 25" waist...even a 26 or 27" waist would be great.
I need to take some action NOW about my waistline.
Perhaps when I start on a proper hormone program,then I will get back my waist....I believe that will happen once I get off the herbs that cause me to gain weight. I havent really changed what I eat that much,its just that the herbs have made me turn it into fat accumulation...which is perfectly fine as its in the right spots,I feel great mostly about it....its just the waist zone.
hmmmm...we share the butt size thang.....and the thigh thang.....I have little skinny arms too and I had the rib bones showing too before I gained weight.....I still dont gain weight on my arms..I do have a nice subcutaeneous fat layer all over now....so my bony ribs dont bug me now..YAAAH! My pelvic bones used to stick out also...I looked like one of those anorexic models on some of those ads.Bleeeck.I dont like super skinny.
My arms were slender natually,and my legs were too.
Oh yeah,5'1"....thats short alright. My Dads family is from England,lincolnshire or lancashire They are all kinda short,and I wish I was shorter,but of course my dad marries a gal from a tall family and here I am...I should count myself fortunate that Im not taller. I always wanted to be short and petite. Well,Ive got the petite part better than the short part.
Hang in there Louise, thats so great about your breast gains,though.
~Davilee
October 28 2007 at 4:18 AM Davilee (Login Davata)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im sorry I forgot about writing that in the other topic line when You asked.
>beta-carotene
>beta-sitosterol
>coumarin
>diosgenin
>kaempferol
>luteolin
>p-coumaric acid
>quercetin
>rutin
>saponin
>trigonelline
>vitexin
------------------
Nutrients:
>amino acids
>calcium
>EPO's
>folate
>iron
>magnesium
>manganese
>phosphorus
>potassium
>selenium
>zinc
>Vit.B1,B2,B3,C
Hope this helps you.
------------------------------
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
Author Reply
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you October 28 2007, 9:21 AM
Thanks, most interesting that it should contain coumestrol, also found in soy and I think PM. Not sure that diosgenin does much in the body. Thought the saponins were active but will have to do more reading.
Good thing it's got all those other things - just turns out my meds can give low metabolites
Davilee
(Login Davata) Diosgenin and other things.... October 30 2007, 6:53 AM
Actually diosgenin is found in wild yam (Dioscorea) and is one of the more powerful isoflavones. It is what the majority of the compounded natural estriols and natural progesterones are made from,at least from what I've read.
Wild yam and fenugreek are both very high in it,and they both are used to sythesize the concentrated form of diosgenin that is used in USP progesterone amd USP estriol. Thats what the papers that came with my Prog said.
And I've read that in other articles also.
Hey!! what do you know about coumestrol Louise??
This is very important,I got some info out of the archives in the herb library info.within this site.
It listed coumestrol as being more powerful than natural estradiol,on effecting estrogen receptor binding activity.
I will list the strongest ones in the study.
****A rating of over 400 means greater than ER(est. receptor) binding activity of estradiol!!!!***
>coumestrol 2500
>Licorice 1600
>Red clover 3000
>Yucca 2600
>Mistletoe 500
>White clover 500
>Damiana 200
>Nutmeg 200
>Motherwort over 400, amount
I havent had time to start looking up info. on coumesterol yet,Im working on aromatase enzyme stimulation and beta-sitosterol functions as to that.
I will get a link to the whole series of studies in the archive.
It's listed as "Estrogen receptor binding activity and stimulation of cell proliferation in breast cancer cells."
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you October 30 2007, 11:20 PM
Ok, so here's some stuff I collected a while ago based on isoflavones in soy but think PM has a similar profile:
"The phytoestrogens coumestrol, genistein, genistin, daidzein, daidzin and naringenin were relatively more potent with ERâ. Ranking of the estrogenic potency with ERa was: 17â-estradiol >> 8-prenylnaringenin > coumestrol > zearalenone >> genistein >> genistin > naringenin. The ranking with the ERâ was: 17â-estradiol >> coumestrol > genistein > zearalenone > 8-prenylnaringen >> daidzein > naringenin > genistin >> daidzin. The hop estrogen 8-prenylnaringenin is relatively more potent with ERa. These data show that the newly developed bioassays are valuable tools for the rapid and high-throughput screening for estrogenic activity."
"Some phytoestrogens such as coumestrol, genistein, apigenin, naringenin, and kaempferol compete stronger with E2 for binding to ER beta than to ER alpha. Estrogenic chemicals, as for instance nonylphenol, bisphenol A, o, p'-DDT and 2',4',6'-trichloro-4-biphenylol stimulate the transcriptional activity of ER alpha and ER beta at concentrations of 100-1000 nM. Phytoestrogens, including genistein, coumestrol and zearalenone stimulate the transcriptional activity of both ER subtypes at concentrations of 1-10 nM. The ranking of the estrogenic potency of phytoestrogens for both ER subtypes in the transactivation assay is different; that is, E2 >> zearalenone = coumestrol > genistein > daidzein > apigenin = phloretin > biochanin A = kaempferol = naringenin > formononetin = ipriflavone = quercetin = chrysin for ER alpha and E2 >> genistein = coumestrol > zearalenone > daidzein > biochanin A = apigenin = kaempferol = naringenin > phloretin = quercetin = ipriflavone = formononetin = chrysin for ER beta. Antiestrogenic activity of the phytoestrogens could not be detected, except for zearalenone which is a full agonist for ER alpha and a mixed agonist-antagonist for ER beta. In summary, while the estrogenic potency of industrial-derived estrogenic chemicals is very limited, the estrogenic potency of phytoestrogens is significant, especially for ER beta, and they may trigger many of the biological responses that are evoked by the physiological estrogens."
"This study examines the effects of dietary soy supplementation on the proliferation rate of premenopausal, histologically normal breast epithelium and the expression of progesterone receptor. ....... The proliferation rate of breast lobular epithelium significantly increased after 14 days of soy supplementation when both the day of menstrual cycle and the age of patient were accounted for. Progesterone receptor expression increased significantly in the soy group. Short-term dietary soy stimulates breast proliferation"
"The aglycones and any bacterial metabolites are absorbed from the intestinal tract and conjugated mainly to glucuronic acid; then they undergo enterohepatic recycling. Intestinal metabolism is essential for their subsequent absorption and bioavailability because there is no evidence to support absorption of the conjugated forms of isoflavones. Furthermore, it is the aglycones that show an affinity for estrogen receptors and have other nonhormonal effects on the cell machinery."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you have to remember though is that just because the phytoestrogens compete strongly for the receptor doesn't mean they act as potently when bound, I've read somewhere that phytoestrogens have a low affinity for the breast and uterus which is what made me think that perhaps if the phytoestrogens block the receptors elsewhere then there is more natural estrogen to go to the breast and uterus, this would also explain stalling as you get to a saturated point where you've filled the breast receptors too.
p.s. coumestrol isn't an isoflavone it's a coumestan or something but stil a phytoestrogen
p.p.s also interesting about the diosgenin, I'd just about written off wild yam as having any use outside the lab - how come fenugreek is so much more effective? Is it the saponins?
Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you October 31 2007, 7:40 AM
Very good info.
Yeah,I knew coumestrol is not a isoflavone.I found my list of the four different subclasses of isoflavones.
The research I have seen about ER binding was making a point that the PE's were interfering and stopping the estradiol fueled cancers in breast and prostate cells.So,that doesn't seem like they are less effective on breast and prostate tissues to me,from what I've read..if they can block out estradiol binding.
It was genistein,coumestrol,and one other odd named chemical that I cant recall..these were the most effective ones..but another study named more than these.
So,coumarin and P-coumaric acid are coumestrols?
The point to that one study I was reading, was that there were many Pchems that are more efective at est receptor binding than estradiol...how else could the Pchems do what they do,,, they have to displace the indigenous estrogen in some way.
I just posted a link,on the other forum,to a study done on just that topic.
It seems isoflavones arent as efficient at displacing estradiol.
Glabradene from licorice is molecularly similar to estradiol and it causes the same actions as estradiol.I think it's glabradene,there are so many chemicals in licorice.
However,estriol is never mentioned in these studies.I'm getting more interested in it,I need to learn more about it...what all it does,or can do.
Maybe I'm just missing something in what you wrote,I need to reread it.
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you October 31 2007, 6:15 PM
I really hate to point this out - it sounds like I'm such a bitch but I think you mean endogenous not indigenous, it really makes me giggle every time I see that, like native Americans or Aborigines are the indigenous people! Hope you can see the funny side!
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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 7 2007, 8:55 PM
Oh Yeah!! Hahahah..I get in a hurry and I dont think about some spellings sometimes..you are so right.....no its no problem that you pointed that out......it just reinforces to me that I need to chose my spelling better....I write when Im tired and thats what I get.
Hey,while we are on the subject of mistakes.how does one go back and change a post??
I see posts that say, "SO&SO has edited this message on XXXX"
How do I change content in a post??
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 7 2007, 9:47 PM
I think you need to apply to Eve for senior membership, then you can edit. Not sure if you do that by emailing the link on the front page - it came up on the main forum about a month or so ago if you want to have a look.
Glad you're posting again!
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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 11 2007, 12:47 PM
Wow thats some nice info in that research quotation,what is the source for that,,like what's the website? Google scholar?
Im love the techy stuff,Im getting better at recognising chemicals and such,and recalling what they do.
Biochanin is the other p-chem that blocks estradiol molecules......P-chems are being recommended to be used to block the Xenoestrogenics from binding Est.Receptors and causing all kinds of craziness.
I have some neat stuff as to Red Clover,it is high in coumestrol also...its one of a very few herbs that contain the exact chem. coumestrol.
I have some negative things about Soy also,I will list in a topic listing.
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 11 2007, 6:43 PM
I was quite impressed with RC too! Right up there with soy and PM, have got the powder but not taken any yet. When the DMSO finally arrives I will be putting an interesting theory to test (sadly using myself as guinea pig!). Do you know the exact aminos that are required for boob growth or would it be best just to get a supplement with as many as possible? Do you know of anything herbal for local fat burning? Was going to give lecithin a go. Also what exactly is the boobie reason for using vitamin E? It says on the bottle that it helps burn fats or something - have bought some but not sure why everyone's using it!
Am I right that combining RC with fenugreek is a bad idea?
What were your starting and current measurements? Out of interest how tall are you and what are you waist hip and thigh measurements? I'm trying to compare everyone as starting to think I may have a body image issue!
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 11 2007, 6:49 PM
p.s. I'm afraid I didn't take down the sites I got that stuff from or the key words I used in google - usually better organised! I did copy and paste every thing that was NBE relevant though so I didn't keep the addresses as I wouldn't need to go back there. Just putting genistein into google came up with some interesting stuff. I'd be interested to hear your negative soy info, I'm taking WU and then about 1g soy powder in food every day. Have tried boobie tea a couple of times with 1g goat's rue, 1g barley grass, 0.5g 10:1 hops extract and a spearmint and chamomile teabag. I'm really not sure how much I'm actually absorbing from my diet while the metformin is messing with my stomach lining so I intend to try the DMSO route as that should bypass the digestive process. Brava seems to be the thing that's working for me.
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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 13 2007, 3:46 AM
Whooo....a lot of querys dere..hahaha.....I will have to do some seeking for some of the answers about the Vit's and amino acids....
*actually* though....you should get as many as possible anyway..its not going to hurt you....you have to really TRY to overdose on amino acids..and that would be like taking 4-5 grams pure Arginine tablets....that can cause some problems... If you take A LOT of a particular amino acid by itself then a may cause some side effects.
Lysine is okay to take a lot of,you cant really over do it. Its great for the immune system. I will get back to that when I can find my book on amino acids. I would take a powdered mix that supplies amino acids,thats what I do.
Hey...actually there should be a bunch of info I wrote to Morticia and Blu-Jay all about the fat burning and energy boosting stuff....look back for a thread on HGH and related things....OR if you cant find it I will look for it..because knowing how things are it's not titiled as what it's about.
I loose more good info in the archives because I cant find it again.
My stats are :
I am 5'9"....Im actually getting shorter...weird....
I weigh around 146-147....I was 133 pounds when I started, (thats what the herbs have done for me also)...I'm not sure how much I want to gain as I am loosing my waist now.....blaaaaah!!!
I started out with a 29" waist,and 36.5" hips and my thighs..uhm Im not sure what they were when I started..but they are several inches bigger Im sure..because they have filled out so much and they touch together now when I stand with my knees close together..I have the female type leg angles,as I have a wideish pelvic girdle.
Weeeell,...Now....I have a 31" waist(crap!!..HAHA)
...38+ hips..WOW!!(I just measured myself)...NOW thats cool!..I think its my rear getting bigger all the time...
....my thighs are almost 22"
My chest and breast stats...
..are at start:32" below breast and that is almost exactly the same now.
..around my chest/breasts area, I started out 35" and now is 37.5"...I know that some is fat gains...but my breasts are much bigger than they were when I started. They are starting to get rounder now.
I want to have a 10" difference in my waist from my hips....eventually....I will need to lose weight from my waist ...that sounds so funny as I have never been overweight,I have always tried gaining weight but never could just from eating food.
Oh there are several weight loss herbs...I started working on a list for a friend and I need to find it as I hadnt finished it yet.
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 13 2007, 10:40 PM
Damn! You're a lot taller than I thought! Again more of a model build....where can I find someone short and in proportion to compare to? Going to have a look at aminos tomorrow - any that should be avoided? I try to avoid ingesting vitamin E as I may have a congenital eye disease for which vitamin A may help and vitamin E worsen. Have you tried hypnosis (or a corset) for the waist? I used to be 23-24 waist and 36-37 hips, for some reason I'm now 25 waist and 35.5 hips - think this could be either the hormone probs trying to turn me into a man or my intensely wishing that my hips and waist would be more similar to make me look less bottom heavy - I think the power of the mind might do more than we think but not sure exactly how....I make sure I put my flaky comments on this side of the board! SOY = SUCCESS!!
Davilee
(Login Davata) LOL!!! Louise..... November 14 2007, 11:11 AM
OH girl..you make me laugh....
"put the flaky stuff on this side of the board"..HAHAHA!! :-D
SOY=SUCCESS!! HAHA... thats neato....
Well,you probably wont meet someone more flakier than me,I'll tell ya....
Yes,the mind is an amazing and powerful thing...its so marvelous..
I agree wholeheartedly about concentration and meditation and hypnosis,,which is just a very precise concentration method...and the Qigong subjects.
Its all connected....but,we have to figure out the best ways to utilize these things for the best benefits...
I can concentrate very well,and I can get into intentions very strongly if I really apply myself. I just keep thinking that I'm not doing or thinking strongly enough....like Im not putting enough will into it.
But,the feminisation is all I really concentrate on.
So,I have to go the next step and try the focused concentration method like hypnosis or just getting more involved into the chi energy work.
What is your height?
I figure Im an average male height....but I cant believe how many girls I have come across that are taller than I am.Geez,they make me feel like a shorty..hahhaha....I bet they weigh more than I do too,thats a consolation for me. HAHAHA.. I'm starting to get worried about my weight now..great..thats all I need....something else to worry about controlling...it wasnt so bad awhile back.I liked the gaining...its great,it has really filled me out and rounded and smoothed my body.....but NOW my waist is getting TOO filled out now....it sucks...
HAHAHA...we sound similar...we both want less waist and more hips..well,I dont know if you want more hips or not,but I do....
My butt is growing quite well and continuously,my thighs and legs are getting bigger and nicer....I just cant seem to get the fat to accumulate quicker on one area of my hips.
If I can start doing that then I'd be sooooo happy and really look great,on my way to the voluptuous body I wanted.
!!!OH YES!! Corsets! I want to get one so bad....I think that would help me out....just one that fits the ribcage and waist, not all the way down.
I think that Stefanie may be shorter,Im not sure....so dont quote me.
She hasnt been around lately,so I havent talked to her to see how she was doing. I should write her a letter.
Do you want me to ask her how tall she is?? She'd be glad to talk to you.
Oh,that problem with soy is that it interferes with two enzymes produced by the pancreas. Thats unfermented soy.
Hey,Im going to start taking soy isoflavones in a pill or capsule form....that should circumvent any problems.
I just dont know how effective they are by themselves.Im going to try them and see.
Soy=Success!! ;-)
I think it helped me alot when I have taken soy milk regularly.
Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 14 2007, 7:28 PM
I'm 5'1 so even for biological female I'm stunted! Luckily in the UK there are smaller people than in the US. I was 135 lbs and 32B, then went down to 120 lbs (got married) and lost a fair bit in terms of boobs, now 106 lbs and full 32B/C. My waist has stayed at 25 throughout the NBE, my underbust has possibly got a bit smaller, hips about 0.5 inch smaller (have always had huge ass!) but just left with fat thighs, 21 inches is fine for a model if she's 5'8 but just out of proportion (although looks ok with clothes on - worried I'm getting body image issues!). I seem to have got about 0.5 inch extra boobs this week so really hope this doesn't all fade away to nothing when I finally put the Brava away. At the moment I'm truly amazed at what NBE can do, I only really bought Brava to prove to myself that it wouldn't work...now if I can just stick to the exercises the personal trainer has given me maybe I can finally have something to be proud of.
Not sure what the whole thing with soy milk is as it's 5% soy and the rest water (not saying that I don't use it though!), I make boobie porridge out of oats, oat based ceral, about 0.25 teaspoon soy powder (10% isoflavones), 0.3 cup soy milk, tinned fruit, protein shake powder, then maybe add some barley grains and warm it in the microwave - it's really not bad esp with choc chips!
You mention Stephanie SS - I noticed she hadn't been around for a while, hope everything's ok.
Going to give body wrapping a go in conjunction with exercises - will let you know if I suddenly hit the jackpot....oh, and in terms of corsets make sure it goes right high up otherwise you get a little roll but it makes such a difference and if you do it tight long term use actually trains your body (although I think it's bad for you as it pushes your internal organs around - google smallest waist)
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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Louise.....Chem.Profile on Fenugreek for you November 16 2007, 7:05 AM
Ya put chocolate chips in anything makes it better.
well,maybe thats overstating it a bit....Anything thats related to pastries.
;-) Mmmmmmm..choclate chip scones...Mmmmmmmm
I use that Edensoy Organic original plain....it has 69%+/- isoflavones per oz.
Its the highest level of any soymilk Ive seen.
I bought a 30 pound bag of organic soybeans so I could make my own soy products. It cost about 15.00 at my local healthnut store.
I havent taken time to start preparing any soymilk or anything yet.I have a good book about soy cooking. Making soymilk and soy butter and etc.
Thanks for the corset suggestions...any info is appreciated,dear.
OMG....I wished I had a 25" waist...even a 26 or 27" waist would be great.
I need to take some action NOW about my waistline.
Perhaps when I start on a proper hormone program,then I will get back my waist....I believe that will happen once I get off the herbs that cause me to gain weight. I havent really changed what I eat that much,its just that the herbs have made me turn it into fat accumulation...which is perfectly fine as its in the right spots,I feel great mostly about it....its just the waist zone.
hmmmm...we share the butt size thang.....and the thigh thang.....I have little skinny arms too and I had the rib bones showing too before I gained weight.....I still dont gain weight on my arms..I do have a nice subcutaeneous fat layer all over now....so my bony ribs dont bug me now..YAAAH! My pelvic bones used to stick out also...I looked like one of those anorexic models on some of those ads.Bleeeck.I dont like super skinny.
My arms were slender natually,and my legs were too.
Oh yeah,5'1"....thats short alright. My Dads family is from England,lincolnshire or lancashire They are all kinda short,and I wish I was shorter,but of course my dad marries a gal from a tall family and here I am...I should count myself fortunate that Im not taller. I always wanted to be short and petite. Well,Ive got the petite part better than the short part.
Hang in there Louise, thats so great about your breast gains,though.
~Davilee