[dargona]

I have been experimenting with varying levels of saw palmetto now for quite some time since starting with NBE on weaker herbs and in the past few months on PM. I am a 24 year old biological male so ive been trying to find a proper dose but i dont seem to notice much difference so far with or without the sp. The most sp ive taken in a day is probably 3600 to 4000mg at most and my consistent 3 month pattern was a little less than 2000mg. I have recently, in the past day, started to drink a lot of peppermint/spearmint tea as i have read some leads about that. Also i must add that i know have a definite growth in my left breast which isnt present in my right. It is about the size of a quarter, firm and tender. It has been there for upwards of two weeks and im a little nervous that my right hasnt undergone the same growth yet... any thoughts??

[dargona]

Also ive been weary of taking sp in fear that it converts into T.. i havent heard a definite yes or no on this but ive been worried that taking it would negatively affect my growth.

[beverley.rose]

SP is supposed to block the conversion of T to DHT via 5-alpha-reductase. DHT is a far more powerful version of T. Excess T is then converted to oestrogen via another enzyme reaction.

SP is supposed to be good for your prostate and might even prevent male pattern baldness. When Isabelle pops up I am sure she will give you the full biochemcial works.

Beverley

[Isabelle]

Thank you Beverley,

Because most people don't break out on PM, I think there might be anti-androgens in PM, that block 5α-reductase. That's why adding more and more SP to block 5α-reductase makes no difference. Once all 5α-reductase is blocked, no testosterone will become DHT, and all of it will be converted to estrogens by aromatase.

I prefer to take the lowest possible amount of anti androgen, because there are so many severe side effects.

[dargona]

Well I can't honestly tell if my T is getting blocked or not, I'm assuming it's not because I am still growing quite a bit of hair on my chest and around the nipples. Acne-wise it seems to be slightly more in control but that has also decreased with age as well. I started getting MPB around the age of 21-22 (receding hairline), which was also around the same time I went vegetarian although I'm not sure if that was merely coincidence or not. Have you tried experimenting with peppermint or spearmint as well Isabelle? I'm thinking about splitting SP into 3 doses throughout the day in order to try a consistent block as opposed to twice daily along with my PM and newly added maca. Maybe I need to up my amount of SP before I notice any actual difference, but then again if my T is already being blocked from converting then I wont tell a difference anyways ;\

[karen]

I prefer to take the lowest possible amount of anti androgen, because there are so many severe side effects.

Hi Isabelle,

What are the "Severe Side Effects"?

AND how can you systematically determine that you taking enough anti-androgens?

Meaning .... As you increase your anti-androgens what do you need to look for AND do the signs appear right after you hit the "max" or do you need to stay at the max for several days before the signs appear?

Hugs ... Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Dargona,

I tried peppermint, but I didn't expect any difference, because my hops contains too much anti-androgens. I was also planning to do an honest anti-androgen experiment during my break, but I canceled the break.

Good question Karen,

The side effects of too much anti-androgens are depressed mood, low libido, inability to cope with stress, weepiness, and I read something about osteoporosis too.

The early warnings are all negative: if you stop seeing Male Pattern Baldness, have no oily skin, have no breakouts, and grow no new chest hair or chin hair, you get enough anti-androgen. I think oily skin will appear within hours, pimples within a day, but libido and mood change within an hour, certainly with hops as tea: I experienced that yesterday. Those are the ones I use to steer: more maca if I have bad mood and libido. It helps, as long as I don't take too much hops. That's why I think there is a point where all 5α-reductase is blocked.

Because of the hops, I can't steer my program on the edge of too much anti-androgens. That's why I want to introduce panax ginseng as a second phyto-estrogen, so I can lower hops. But if I make too many changes at the same time, I can't draw any conclusions. I can only try so much on my own body. I learn more from your experiences

[dargona]

Signs of headaches are pretty inaccurate for me as I've head frequent headaches/migraines most of my life prior to NBE so having them now is just a normality for me ;[ I guess I'll shave down my hair again and see what kind of regrowth happens in the following days now that I'm taking ~3200mg of sp again. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

[Sevyn]

dargona, From what I understand, body hair can become a little finer and its growth can be slowed while undergoing feminization, but it may not be reasonable to expect that the regrowth will be significantly different after a shave. A more likely effect would be the prevention of new growth.

Don't be discouraged, though! Best wishes.

[dargona]

Where do you get your hops? Do you get them in bulk or in capsule form? I havent tried hops yet and Im not sure exactly how it would fit in? Would i replace the SP with it? Also if its a capsule i would need to find a vegetarian brand as I dont do gelatin.