[sfem]

I've not tried varying the schedule regularly like you describe, so I cannot help. As is the norm for our group, you'll have to be a GP (Guinea Pig) for us. I hope you get the results you're shooting for.

[beverley.rose]

Hi Pansy Mae,

Red clover is 50/50 phyto-estrogen/phyto-progestin. It's like continuing a small dose of PM with the PC. If that's what you are planning to do with PC, you may want to stop PM completely with RC.

That was my reasoning.

Beverley

[dargona]

At the reboot of my program I noticed the effects of not taking saw palmetto within 2-3 days while taking PM. It could be my age at 24 but PM doesn't do the job all by itself as an antiandrogen if at all (for me and my experience). I immediately took 2000mg SP with each dose of PM once i noticed the androgen symptoms and have been fine since.

[Pansy-Mae]

Hi Pansy Mae,

Red clover is 50/50 phyto-estrogen/phyto-progestin. It's like continuing a small dose of PM with the PC. If that's what you are planning to do with PC, you may want to stop PM completely with RC.

That was my reasoning.

Beverley

Hmmm...yes I see what you are both saying and it does make sense. OTOH, going back to my original logic, that in a GG the E level never drops to zero, even during the P phase, its difficult to know where to draw the line on how much E is permissable with P, especially factoring in the oft repeated statement that you never take the two together because P is death to NBE.

On my progesterone cream pot the instructions say 1/8 tsp twice daily for days 14-28 pre-menopause and the same for 24 days a month, post-.
Now on that the basis that I have effectively no natural progesterone, that equates to post menopause so I ought to apply it 24 days a month. However NBE wisdom seems to be only one week a month?

I don't mind experimenting and being a guinea pig, but only if I can be reasonably certain that even if something doesn't produce positive results at least it won't do anything negative.

[beverley.rose]

I immediately took 2000mg SP with each dose of PM once i noticed the androgen symptoms and have been fine since.

Which symptoms did you notice?

Beverley.

[beverley.rose]

I don't mind experimenting and being a guinea pig, but only if I can be reasonably certain that even if something doesn't produce positive results at least it won't do anything negative.

I guess it is a case of "Welcome to guinea-pig city".

My reasoning about the RC is that it is a mix of phyto-P and phyto-E so the oestrogens would not drop to zero. Also remember that even genetic males have oestrogen in their bodies. Zero oestrogen is not an option for you.

Beverly

[dargona]

Symptoms: more strands of hair easily coming out in the shower and while drying hair, back to oily forehead and acne coming back a bit.

Although with sp i feel extremely bloated and ive been dieting/eating mostly fruit/vegetables and high protein sourced foods in small amounts . maybe this is just what i have to deal with for progress to be made.

[Pansy-Mae]

Also remember that even genetic males have oestrogen in their bodies. Zero oestrogen is not an option for you.

Truly zero isn't an option, I agree, but basic male level oestrogen, even when supplemented by the T converted to E by aromatase when the DHT route is blocked, isn't enough to maintain the PM attained development on its own (hence the need for a maintenance dose of PM), so for practical purposes it can be ignored.

So the questions then are:
1) If RC contains both E and P, how much RC do you need to take to get enough E to maintain what you've got?
2) Is the amount of P that goes with it, in the fixed ratio that is in RC, enough to actually do the rounding out that we are talking about?
3) If it isn't, then how much RC do you actually need to get the P effect, and what then happens about the extra E you've now taken as a side effect, if, as they say, the two are antagonistic?
4) Does the excess E knock out some of the P - in which case do you need more RC to compensate and get the P level back up, leading to more excess E....ad infinitum?

These are almost certainly rhetorical questions because I doubt anyone really knows, even if we were all the same, which we aren't.

[beverley.rose]

These are almost certainly rhetorical questions because I doubt anyone really knows, even if we were all the same, which we aren't.

I guess all we can do is follow Isabelle's suggestion and see if we get clear thinking or PMT. I was previously on daily doses of 3600mg FG and 2000mg RC so if we skip the FG and given that PM is stronger what about a regimen of 2000mg RC and 1000mg PM?

If we get PMT then drop the PM.

Beverley

[beverley.rose]

Symptoms: more strands of hair easily coming out in the shower and while drying hair, back to oily forehead and acne coming back a bit.

I have not had acne or oily skin for 30 years since my mid-teens so those symptoms do not show for me. The hair loss is now reversing but that could be the minoxidil, the PM or the SP

Beverley