[vmiku914]

Just need some advice if any if you feel like I am doing something wrong.

I have been taking PM (2000mg) for a year and the experience is awesome. I just added FG (500mg) to the program to defeat the headache I had and it is working. I am now worried about the ugly super T coming to play. Does the PM or FG protect against it or should I add something else?

Aside from my request, is there any changes anyone thinks I should try?

[beverley.rose]

No one really knows, but Saw Palmetto (SP) is considered by many (including me) to be an anti-androgen

Beverley

[Pansy-Mae]

As Beverley says, SP is the most recommended anti-androgen.
Personally I'm on the fence about its effectiveness. It doesn't seem to make any noticeable difference to me, but that may just be where my body is at this stage of life, so I don't actually say its useless. There are others who swear it is necessary and yet others who never use it.
As ever all you can do ( if you want to) is give it a try and see what it does for you. However if you are getting good results anyway, I tend to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought.

[dargona]

I rebooted my program herb by herb to discover their effects and i noticed a major difference when i wasnt taking the SP, such as hair loss, oily head, acne coming back. I am 24 so that may be why i need it vs. Some of the wiser users here. I was going to do a 4 week simulated cycle with just a ramp up of PM but not having the SP was too noticable early on. The downside is even though ive been eating even healhier than i usually do anyways, ive felt bloated and it seems like weight loss is affected by he consumption of SP.

This month will be a pm ramp with sp, next month im going to include red clover into the PM peak, to see if I notice anything different with the progesterone addition, and with how my body has reacted to RC in the past Im sure that I will.[/code]

[Pansy-Mae]

I am 24 so that may be why i need it vs. Some of the wiser users here.

LOL... you mean OLD

But I think you may well be correct in the assumption that it is age ( or lack of it) that requires you to use SP and not me!

Weight gain is one of the widely reported side effects of SP

[dargona]

They say wisdom comes with age plus i was trying to dodge a sensitive subject for some haha.

[Pansy-Mae]

They say wisdom comes with age plus i was trying to dodge a sensitive subject for some haha.

Anyone who tries to deny what the calendar says, deserves to be upset!
Anyway, there is a lot of truth in the old saying " You are as young as you feel". As my grandfather used to say when, as young kids, we asked him how old he was, " I'm as old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth!" - Mind you, he lied about that, he had a full set of dentures so he was actually a fair bit older than his teeth!

[chrishoney]

Some one on Cheryl's forum mentioned Pygeum africanus (aka prunus africanus) has anti-androgenic effects. It looks promising as an alternative to SP. Check out this link: http://www.akins.com/ns/DisplayMonograph.asp?storeID=A59A6B1C10E44C9E9420A7A75B27460A&DocID=basic-interactions-pygeum

[beverley.rose]

Some one on Cheryl's forum mentioned Pygeum africanus (aka prunus africanus) has anti-androgenic effects. It looks promising as an alternative to SP. Check out this link: http://www.akins.com/ns/DisplayMonograph.asp?storeID=A59A6B1C10E44C9E9420A7A75B27460A&DocID=basic-interactions-pygeum

Interestingly, your link says

5-alpha-reductase inhibitors: Based on in vitro evidence, pygeum extract may inhibit human prostatic 5-alpha-reductase, but much less powerfully than finasteride ( 13 )


and the Saw Palmetto review on the same website says

The effectiveness may be similar to the medication finasteride (Proscar®) with fewer side effects.

So I will be stikcing with SP on the basis of that. The reviews of RC and FG basically say "no evidence it works". PM is not even mentioned.

Beverley

[chrishoney]

When I first started using herbal NBE, I was taking primarily FG and SP. I definitely put on weight during that period, which I am only now beginning to get a real handle on a year later. I started reading about PM 3 months or so after starting on FG and SP. I did not notice any appreciable effect on erections or libido while taking FG and SP.

I switched over to PM primarily because the evidence suggests FG is mostly a galactogogue and would not increase breast growth. I kept taking the SP for another couple months along with PM. I stopped taking the SP but kept taking PM. I did notice appreciable effects on spontaneous erections, morning erections and a very marked decrease in libido after taking PM for a month or so. I noticed no change what so ever after stopping SP. Based on my experience I question the effectiveness of SP as an antiandrogen.

In fact, it's effectiveness at reducing the symptoms of BPH are very much in question by the most recent research. (http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/Treatmen...w-palmetto) If it doesn't help those symptoms, as an antiandrogen would be expected to, is it a very powerful antiandrogen, or even one at all?

In any case, SP apparently did not do much for my system, despite some laboratory assay comparing 5-alpha-reductase activity with finasteride. Remember in vitro studies do not equate to what happens in the body.

I am not totally sure if it was the FG or the SP that piled on the pounds, but one of them definitely did. There is anecdotal evidence that SP does promote weight gain:

Native Americans ate the berries of the saw palmetto believing they served as a tonic that nourished the body, stimulated appetite, and promoted weight gain.

http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/Treatmen...w-palmetto

In addition to NOT helping regrow hair or stop hair loss (another likely function of antiandrogens), check out this information on interactions with SP from WebMD:

Birth control pills (Contraceptive drugs) interacts with SAW PALMETTO
Some birth control pills contain estrogen. Saw palmetto might decrease the effects of estrogen in the body. Taking saw palmetto along with birth control pills might decrease the effectiveness of birth control pills. If you take birth control pills along with saw palmetto, use an additional form of birth control such as a condom.

Estrogens interacts with SAW PALMETTO
Saw palmetto seems to decrease estrogen levels in the body. Taking saw palmetto along with estrogen pills might decrease the effectiveness of estrogen pills.

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-971-SAW%20PALMETTO.aspx?activeIngredientId=971&activeIngredientName=SAW%20PALMETTO

SP also has other documented side effects:

Side effects from saw palmetto are not common but may include headache, nausea, vomiting, upset stomach, dizziness, constipation or diarrhea, trouble sleeping, and fatigue. Its long-term effects and safety have not been studied.

http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/Treatmen...w-palmetto

The only side effects I could find with regard to pygeum africanum are pretty much what you would expect from any benign herb:

SIDE EFFECTS: Constipation, diarrhea or nausea may occur.

http://www.medicinenet.com/pygeum_pygeum...rticle.htm
http://www.herbal-supplement-resource.co...-bark.html

My point in posting the original link and mentioning pygeum africanum is that it IS an effective anti-androgen that seems to work in ways that SP does not, and it doesn't have the same suite of potential side effects. A quick search on the net (wikipedia for god's sake!) shows that in addition to whatever effect it has on 5-alpha-reductase activity, it also has other androgen blocking constituents and properties. Two (or more) for the price of one!

The compound N-butylbenzene-sulfonamide (NBBS) isolated from Pygeum africanum is a specific androgen antagonist.[7],[8]

Pygeum africanum contains an antiandrogenic compound atraric acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiandrogens

The wikipedia article includes references for further verification, and I found similar information elsewhere on the net while doing more research.

Also consider this information when basing your choice solely on a comparison to finasteride:

Finasteride (Proscar, Propecia) and dutasteride (Avodart), inhibitors of the 5-α-reductase enzyme that prevent the conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Finasteride blocks only 5-α-reductase type II, dutasteride also blocks type I. They are not general antiandrogens in that they do not counteract the effects or production of other androgens other than DHT; however, DHT is 3-5 times more potent than testosterone or other androgens (except in skeletal muscle tissue, where testosterone is the main androgen).There are a number of in vivo and in vitro plant/herbal inhibitors of the 5-alpha reductase

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiandrogens

The point of that last quote is that finasteride is NOT considered a general antiandrogen and may not be very useful in comparison to other general antiandrogens.

In light of the evidence above, and the facts that you are taking PM and SP, and you aren't seeing the results you desire, you might consider stopping the SP!

I am merely pointing out some interesting information. It's up to you how you want to use it, or not. However, minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open.

Cheers.