[TibetanPrincess]

Christin14

Its very possible your HA was caused by something else entirely- that's a no brainer. But
headaches alone are a common side effect of estro-dom. period! You can skip a whole 4 days of your dose of herbs and you would still have it in your system until it has been converted and fully processed. I have also an experience with Fenugreek doing this to me and it was under a 1500mg dose. I would stop and when my symptoms did and then resume by slowly ramping up. The result was the immediate return of headaches and other symptoms such as bad cramping. I highly advise you research on your own from here so that you will have more of an understanding when it comes to specific herbs and their common side effects because at the end of the day you are the one to go through it, no one else.

ChrisHoney,

I see you have taken it a bit too far on the offense scale. First, let's have you understand a few things: my intention was to help and give my honest opinion based on my first hand experience, and I have had many.
So I will not entertain the idea of further trying to explain what I have learned on the subject of short term cleansing. It would be like trying to convince one of my past doctors that TCM works!

Secondly, I find a fallacy in some of your statements: here's why :you give "facts" from sites that often bash and dismiss all forms of ancient medicinal practices by calling them "quackery","Quack Medicine", "bunk" etc. These are the kind of sites that would also bash on the use of devices like Noogle Berry, Brava, the use of BO and Herbal NBE.

Thirdly, If you really look at what you and many of us here on this forum are doing, you would realize that we are using a form of ancient medicinal practice to a.) grow breasts, b.) change the shapes of our body, c.) balance our hormones!

On a fourth note, didn't think I had to go here but apparently I do: These individuals and groups that often write bashing these practices support the FDA in removal of all herbals and natural supplements off the shelves of our lovely health food stores in the U.S. In fact, they want to make it global. Don't think this is going on? Research it. They have been trying to pass these types of bills for years! In order to receive any form of natural medicine(herbs and the like) You must obtain a prescription. It's the law in some countries in Europe and in some parts of Canada from what I have read.

So again, if you think about it all, individuals such as you and I would not be able to supplement and experiment with herbs like PM. You would not have those lovely little A cups you've manage to sprout in a Year.

Hopefully it will sink in soon,


BTW, there was a reason why I put quotes on the word stones. Its clear it is just a term not actual stones, of course I know that. Just like Liver stones are different from kidney stones, duh!
Stones made of fat and parasites clog the ducts. Parasites like to live in the fat. Also that fat is often bad fat that could not pass through the ducts! Hence why they call them stones!

[christin14]

Well just for clarification...my headache subsided the next day. It very well could have had nothing to do with the herbs and been a coincidence. Didn't mean to start such a debate. I was just curious if anyone had experienced the same thing. I think at the end of the day, hormone levels are quite different from person to person, and symptoms and side effects can affect each person differently.

Christin

[TibetanPrincess]

Which was why I responded. Glad it subsided.
Good luck on your journey

[sfem]

Wow. Go out of town for a few days and things get unruly.

I am not a doctor, and I don't play one on TV. My opinion is that liver cleanses are snake oil. Unless you can point to evidence from intelligent study of the proposition showing otherwise, you won't have made your case.

I am Canadian. You don't need prescriptions for natural medicines in Canada. You need prescriptions for controlled substances. Way too big a topic for this forum.

Not very cool to throw a few half truths around and pretend they support an argument. "often bash", "dismiss all", "kinds of sites that would". These are not exactly statements supporting a position. They are misdirection. Chrishoney gave very specific actual information. If you read some of the history on the forum, it will become apparent to you that chrishoney has not only made reasonable, supported statements on this but that chrishoney apparently has credentials you should show some level of respect for. Even if you believe the credentials don't exist which I don't think you have any reasonable basis for thinking, you still haven't even provided a response on a comparable level to chrishoney with respect to facts, clear statements, supporting references, or anything else. This forum is valuable because people here share their experiences and offer them, along with speculation, questions provoking thought, and research interpretation for evaluation. If you only have an opinion, you are welcome to share it. There will be those who have an appreciation for it, those who won't, and those who won't care about that topic. But if you want to knock someone who has made a strong contribution over an extended period, you better back it up with more than generalizations, insults, and your personal opinions. As it stands, I find your condescension irritating and offensive. Chrishoney has achieved a lot more than "lovely little A cups you've manage to sprout in a Year". You were rude, tibetan113, and it only reflects poorly on you.

Christin, I'm glad your headache is gone. I believe you are right on the money when you say these things affect everyone differently, and may not even be related to your headache. You can certainly do some trial and error to find out if you have some sensitivity of that nature. If you do, we'd like to hear the results of such experimenting.

[TibetanPrincess]

SFEM,
Great it is not happening in Canada! By the way, It is known as the C-51 Law and I think its great they did not actually go ahead with it.

I am over all of this just so you know. ChrisHoney was on the defense/offense so yeah, I am human, I became defensive. I just find it hilarious when someone (and you also fall into this) slams my suggestion of short term cleansing and calls it bunk/quack when they are using similar approaches to pretty much grow women's breasts.
Tell most western docs that they would be falling hard to the floor laughing their asses off, saying you need synthetic hormones to go from that of a man to more feminine.
So if you think about it, he knocked me on my first hand experience. Which is like telling someone that something didn't happen to them when it in fact did and that person wasn't even there! Of course I was defensive.

So yeah. On a side note, our suggestions, they are just opinions. The poster shouldn't take anyone's word for himself anyway. He/She needs to do his own research at the end of the day as you stated, we are not docs. And yes, you are males so its a different road for you.

As far as insults and my statement go, my intention was to show he would be with out his journey and growth from using this snake oil approach and so would all of us. If you don't know what types of bills reguarding the use of natural herbal supplementation are trying to be passed, then that's scary, because it can be taken from us and we wouldn't be on our journeys here. God forbid I saw or took notice that he was a lovely little A cup.
If he had B or C cups I would have said lovely little B's or lovely large C cups. He and you should not take offense to that statement.
I know what its like to be an A cup. I was just there. So for you to assume its what I meant, ain't cool. But I understand, there is room for question and insecurity there since its written and not said with a readable tone.
But as far as the cleansing goes, I feel I have proof. I am 29 (so I am well over any missed or late pubescent moments of change). My proof is in the pics.

I was underweight, flat and when I tried NBE in 2005, I only had swelling but the result of these herbs had fucked my liver and hormones up. I became constipated from the like hormones that were never converted properly, a hursuit, hypo, estro and andro dom. Skin became rough. So I gave 3 years of off and on cleansing. I saw a naturo path, TCM doc.They both had said my liver needed to be cleansed along with my blood. So I cleansed as much as I thought I needed to with the "quack approach" or "Snake Oil" method as you call them.
I stayed away from NBE during that time and when I changed my diet to a far better one,
I had started to sprout breasts with out any supplementation or trying!
Look at my pics, I pretty much went from an A to a full B in a couple of months(although my A cup photo is missing).
I decided to try a different quack approach that would allow my immune disease heal as well as feminize me at the same time because I am somewhat pear shaped and my waist went missing.

So cleaning my gut allowed me to move the bowels which=absorbing nutrients and clearer skin as a result and cleansing my liver allowed me to convert these phyto chemicals to the best of their ability and better sleep as a result. Cleansing the blood helped my glandular system do its functions better(Not entirely as i am still Hashis). But with the better food diet, I gained a healthy BMI of 18 and several months later guess what? Breasts!

So there is my proof. I have never felt better overall until now just before 30 years. I know it ain't cause i am get any older. I am not on and never was on any western medicine for my illnesses or symptoms.

totally off topic but I thought this would be a good lil example.
When I got a strep throat, I did cephlex, I was fine but then the next year, I developed it again. I used a quack approach called MMS. It was gone with in 2 days! I did this with food salmonella poisoning as well and it was gone within 24hrs!
I will never see a doc unless I need an MRI or any tests and of course the emergencies if they happen.
P.S. I was a "drug dealer" in my early twenties, preparing and handing out meds to the community during the war (U.S Board certified as a pharmacy tech in the USAF for 3 years. So I know a tad bit about medicinal approaches)

For the past few years, I have took an interest in the study of traditional Chinese and ancient methods of healing. I like to stay with the natural approaches or as you both refer to as quack medicine.
So Long live the quack medicine!

Happy feminization, as we are all in the same boat

[chrissie]

About 20 years ago, I had a health crisis. I was near crippled with rheumatoid athreitis, I had near perrmanent acid reflux, convulsive sneezing, regular bouts of flu like symptoms, head aches, bloating and altrenating bouts of constipation and the runs and, by the way, I felt like shit, most of the time, often having to take to my bed and struggled to cope with life!
Lets Guess why and why I am symptom free; it may shine a light into the vulnerability of people, to quakary and into the failings of the medical profession.

[MSM00RE]

It could be the herbs or it also could have been your blood pressure.. I get headaches when my pressure goes up... But i wish you the best and hope you find out why you have them ...

[BigDee]

For those in the US, here's a link (and quote) about efforts in Congress to regulate/ban supplements and herbs in the US. And the effort to stop it.

"October 25, 2011
Senator Durbin's Stealth Move against Supplements

http://aahf.convio.net/site/R?i=9R8xuQ5pSDjzsYIiaFVnuw

Since he's having trouble getting his own bill passed, he's trying a different approach to get the same results. New Action Alert! NDI Supplement Guidance is Just a Bait-and-Switch-and Time Is Running Out to Stop It!"

[chrishoney]

It would be nice if you could indulge in a little accuracy when you criticize me and put words in my mouth. Let's be very clear, shall we?

[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Christin14

Its very possible your HA was caused by something else entirely- that's a no brainer. [quote]

Finally, some sense. This is the first post you admitted that the OP's HA's could possibly be caused by something else. We agree on that.


[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']But
headaches alone are a common side effect of estro-dom. period! You can skip a whole 4 days of your dose of herbs and you would still have it in your system until it has been converted and fully processed. I have also an experience with Fenugreek doing this to me and it was under a 1500mg dose. I would stop and when my symptoms did and then resume by slowly ramping up. The result was the immediate return of headaches and other symptoms such as bad cramping. [/quote]

True, HA's are a common side effect of estrogen dominance. However, I seriously doubt you a male taking a weak phytoestrogen can be estrogen dominant. And furthermore, your experience noted above, was NOT what the OP did. Therefore, the likelihood of estrogen dominance being the problem is quite small in this case.

[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
I highly advise you research on your own from here so that you will have more of an understanding when it comes to specific herbs and their common side effects because at the end of the day you are the one to go through it, no one else.[quote]

Thanks for the tip, I'm sure I wouldn't have thought of that on my own. However, I have done extensive research on the effects and side effects, as well as experimented with them on myself, of the major herbs we are talking about here.

[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
ChrisHoney,

I see you have taken it a bit too far on the offense scale. First, let's have you understand a few things: my intention was to help and give my honest opinion based on my first hand experience, and I have had many.
So I will not entertain the idea of further trying to explain what I have learned on the subject of short term cleansing. It would be like trying to convince one of my past doctors that TCM works![/quote]

Well that is too bad. This would be a perfect opportunity to educate those of us who doubt the veracity of your claims. How about just some basic science supporting the efficacy of liver cleanses, since I know there is nothing out there in the way of studies on them specifically. If you choose to be defensive and offended by my opinions, I respect your choice in that matter.

[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Secondly, I find a fallacy in some of your statements: here's why :you give "facts" from sites that often bash and dismiss all forms of ancient medicinal practices by calling them "quackery","Quack Medicine", "bunk" etc. These are the kind of sites that would also bash on the use of devices like Noogle Berry, Brava, the use of BO and Herbal NBE.
[quote]
Actually if you would deign to read those sites you slam, such as the Mayo Clinic, you might be surprised at how open minded they have become. I am educated in traditional western medicine, and understand all to well the close-minded, knee-jerk reactionary position of established, western medical thinking. I am not a physician, but I do have a doctorate and am well trained in making differential diagnoses of all the body systems, which I do on a daily basis. In my practice I use a form of manual therapy that IS considered quackery by some folks in the medical establishment. Why do I use it? Because I have felt the effects myself (my experience) and my patients get well faster than if I used the methods and techniques I was taught in school. I have spent years honing the art and craft of manual physical therapy, so I understand all too well how it feels to be bashed by traditional western medicine, when I daily see the benefits of this kind of therapy.

In my opinion, the theoretical reasoning behind why BO works is very sketchy. It may have an effect, but I highly doubt it reprograms the pituitary to direct the body to behave like a female. As for the others, there is actually good science to explain why they work, as there is for why PM works. If western medicine chooses to bury it's collective head in the sand and ignore research from other countries

[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Thirdly, If you really look at what you and many of us here on this forum are doing, you would realize that we are using a form of ancient medicinal practice to a.) grow breasts, b.) change the shapes of our body, c.) balance our hormones!
[/quote]

The use of PM going back very far in history, has been well documented in the far east. What hasn't been documented until recently, is the highly estrogenic effects it has in women. Using that basic science as a rationale, it seems reasonable to extrapolate that it would have similar effects in males. This to me, is hardly quackery. It literally is an extension of the scientific method you seem so opposed to.

[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
On a fourth note, didn't think I had to go here but apparently I do: These individuals and groups that often write bashing these practices support the FDA in removal of all herbals and natural supplements off the shelves of our lovely health food stores in the U.S. In fact, they want to make it global. Don't think this is going on? Research it. They have been trying to pass these types of bills for years! In order to receive any form of natural medicine(herbs and the like) You must obtain a prescription. It's the law in some countries in Europe and in some parts of Canada from what I have read.
[quote]

Again, thanks for the tip, but I already was aware of this, and have written my congressman several months ago. Unfortunately you seem prone to exaggeration as it apparently is NOT the law in Canada.

(continued)