[bryony]

Just an update: I came off my 3g Daily (2x500mg x 3) PM dose on 5/10 due to the odd symptoms in my flank (kidney?) area, and experimented with gradually increasing doses to work out what I could handle. During that time, I slowly returned to my old obsession with transforming into a female, returned to daily "self-abuse" (that shows my age! :-) even got a belly buster (size 12 if you are interested )because I persuaded myself that it would help me with my weight loss diet(!), which I wore under my trousers to work.

I've now been back to 3g/day (500mg x 6) for a week and this morning it's all gone! _No_ desire for the belly buster (which had been so enjoyable yeserday and now I'm enjoying the comfort of _not_ wearing them!) _no_ obsessing, just want an easy life pottering with my hobbies.

If I could feel the way I do now, permanently, without breast growth, I'd take it in a flash.

However, I _know_ that if I drop down to as low as 2g a day, I will want them more than anything else.

What does that tell you? It seems to be very much like that paper that appeared in an earlier thread, about the effect of testosterone levels on the brain - but I'm not altogether sure that there was a conclusion on how to deal with it.

It seems that the choices I have are chemical/physical castration, and a life of celibacy, or what I am doing now, knowing that if I drop the dose libido will return with attendant difficulties, but with an unknown degree of breast growth!

The weird thing is that right now, I feel balanced, and not in need of any kind of therapy. It's just a bit unfortunate that it comes with boobs! (Or fortunate, depending on my current dose level)

My mother used to say that these things are sent to try us...

B. x

[sfem]

I am with you all the way Byrony. The emotional balance is very desirable. It is in my mind one of the most beneficial effects of NBE. I wasn't sure there was even that much to it for me, but my experimenting with going on and off of PM have convinced me it's for real. A few of us have also experienced the fact that PM also reduces the urgency/need for sexual and cross-dressing activity. PM doesn't get rid of it in my own case. PM just reduces and morphs it. Perhaps that's because I have not been one for the very high doses. That's fine by me. As for the breast growth "side-effect", I personally like that effect the best of all.

[bryony]

As for the breast growth "side-effect", I personally like that effect the best of all.

Well, I would / will too when/if I get away with it!!



B.

[Pansy-Mae]

I've now been back to 3g/day (500mg x 6) for a week and this morning it's all gone! _No_ desire for the belly buster (which had been so enjoyable yeserday and now I'm enjoying the comfort of _not_ wearing them!) _no_ obsessing, just want an easy life pottering with my hobbies.

If I could feel the way I do now, permanently, without breast growth, I'd take it in a flash.

However, I _know_ that if I drop down to as low as 2g a day, I will want them more than anything else.

What does that tell you? It seems to be very much like that paper that appeared in an earlier thread, about the effect of testosterone levels on the brain - but I'm not altogether sure that there was a conclusion on how to deal with it.

It seems that the choices I have are chemical/physical castration, and a life of celibacy, or what I am doing now, knowing that if I drop the dose libido will return with attendant difficulties, but with an unknown degree of breast growth!

The weird thing is that right now, I feel balanced, and not in need of any kind of therapy. It's just a bit unfortunate that it comes with boobs! (Or fortunate, depending on my current dose level)

My mother used to say that these things are sent to try us...

B. x

As we all know, we all react differently, but I do wonder if time plays a bigger part than we generally realise.
It took about 5 or 6 months from when I first started to when I lost my urge to completely cross dress and that settled down to just a minor level. However when I stopped PM for 4 weeks the cross dressing urge started up again towards the end of that period but faded within a couple of weeks of starting again i.e a lot faster than the first time around.

I also found that at first I couldn't tolerate 3000mg PM per day for more than a couple of days because of the headaches, but now I can go for a week or so (at least) at that level with no headaches at all.

So, maybe you just need to play around with dose very slowly to both find your level AND let one effect stabilise compared with another.

However this, plus sfems recent posting, does bring up another thought that has been floating around my poor addled brain, on and off...
we are all using PM because it seesm to bring the best( fastest?) results. We also know that stopping PM causes the return of more typically male behaviours, and crossdressing and it also allows the migration of fat deposits away from the boobs causing them to deflate.
Now... various other herbs, in combination do work for breast growth albeit slowly.. but do these other PM effects also apply in the same way? i.e are the PM effects simply phyto-estrogen effects or are they to some extent specifically PM reactions?
Where I'm going with this, is, could we use PM to grow to however big we want, and switch to other herbs to maintain volume but get different withdrawal effects?

I hope that makes sense and I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts.

[bryony]

Now... various other herbs, in combination do work for breast growth albeit slowly.. but do these other PM effects also apply in the same way? i.e are the PM effects simply phyto-estrogen effects or are they to some extent specifically PM reactions?
Where I'm going with this, is, could we use PM to grow to however big we want, and switch to other herbs to maintain volume but get different withdrawal effects?

I hope that makes sense and I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts.

I doubt it Pansy-Mae. That paper we looked at some time ago about Testosterone Toxicity was by a Dr Ann Vitale, and I went along to her web site. It did state it in a kind of roundabout way in the paper, but much more clearly on her other pages, that the feeling of well-being and suppression of the desire to cross-dress is a well known effect of administering feminising doses of estrogen to Gender Dysphoric individuals, and if it is withdrawn, anxiety and cross-dressing resumes.

You, me, Sfem, JulieTG, even though we don't currently have the desire to transition are kind of stuck with taking feminising estrogen for life, or suffer the consequences. Have a look at this:
http://www.avitale.com/FAQ.htm

I'll copy a few relevant sections below... It's a bit of a bummer, because, as Chrissie told me, it looks like I _am_ TS, but it doesn't mean that I have to transition. Looks like I'm screwed though...

B.x

15. Is there a diagnostic test, for example, genetic testing, that will let one know if they are ..... transsexual ...?

No. there is no genetic test that can be administered to tell anyone what their sexuality is. That can only be done by honest self examination. Transsexualism, which has nothing to do with sexual preference, is different. We can't do a genetic test, but we can administer cross-sex hormones and see if the individual responds positively or negatively to them. That procedure is routinely done after the individual has had an extensive period of psychotherapy and is fully aware of the consequences. A negative reaction would result in extreme anxiety and discomfort. A positive reaction is one where the individual reports a calming affect. Often described as a feeling of well-being.

(this reminds me of Karen, who experienced severe anxiety after taking PM - clearly not gender dysphoric)

CATEGORY 6: HORMONES
1. I have heard that one of the uses of hormone replacement therapy is to see if the individual accepts or rejects the treatment. In your experience (or in other documented sources) where there was a rejection, what are the responses?

First of all, keep in mind that a referral for hormone replacement therapy is made with great caution. Individuals are not only evaluated for severity of gender variance but they are educated to the effect the hormones will have on them. Most of the people I see come in very aware of the effect HRT will have on their secondary sex characteristics but few are aware of the general health risks and the psychological effects they will experience. For example, I explain to all my clients MTF clients that paradoxically taking estrogen will diminish not only their libido, it will diminish their need to crossdress. I know that is counterintuitive but it is a fact.
I also warn them that getting on estrogen can result in a sense of well being that leads to a strong desire to continue taking it. They had better be prepared for that consequence. .....

15A. How long does it take, if at all, to determine a reaction from hormones?

There is ALWAYS a reaction to taking cross sex exogenous hormones. If the individual has a history of gender dysphoria or as I would prefer to call it, Gender Expression Deprivation Anxiety, the primary reaction is a relaxing one. That is the individual experiences feelings of well being as the anxiety is relieved. If a non gender dysphoric person is exposed to cross sex, exogenous hormones, the opposite occurs; a state of anxiety is induced that goes away once the hormones are no longer being taken. The time period for all of this to occur is very short, ranging from hours to no more then a few days.

The other, more physical changes take longer and are not easily reversable. If a genetic male takes estrogens, he will start to notice tenderness in his nipples in a matter of weeks as the first signs of breast development. The rest of the feminzation will gradually happen over the rest of the period he continues to take the hormones. Depending on the person's age and level of male development at the start of the process, it usually takes six to twelve months before the changes are so advanced that friends and acquaintances would notice and may start to inquiry about your appearance. Of course, a spouse or lover would notice much sooner.

[sfem]

I read through that document. The part that I like most about it is where she advocates making the distress caused by being unable to express your gender identity the problem to treat, instead of the identity itself. Profoundly sound thinking.

[bryony]

I read through that document. The part that I like most about it is where she advocates making the distress caused by being unable to express your gender identity the problem to treat, instead of the identity itself. Profoundly sound thinking.

Yes! The way I see it, PM shifts the problem from dealing with mental problems to coping with the physical changes. It is rightly named "Mirifica" = "Wonderful". It's changed my life. I'm reasonably sure that if I had not come across it, either I would be suffering anxiety until I pegged out, or in desperation go to a therapist who may or may not have given me estrogen (which would have attendant risks of thrombosis etc, and very likely impotence since I couldn't experiment with the dose) on the proviso that I do a "real life" experiment.

This way, I get to deal with the problem on my terms.

When it comes to the crunch, humans developed their sexually dimorphic physical shape long before fashionable clothing was invented. Clothing in itself is a disguise of nakedness. It's not important to me, now, while my mind is calm and relieved of anxiety, to dress in a particular way.

If I was living alone, or 39 instead of 59, with a fair amount of reasonably youthful living left to me, with small children instead of grown children, it might be worth the enormous effort required to pull off a complete transformation. Not to mention the enormous amount of money required to make me feel comfortable enough to present as a female - and most of that cost would not be covered by the UK NHS - money that I don't have.

Most importantly, I have a loving family, a son of 29 (still at home, thanks to the economy) and a daughter of 23 living with her partner but who we see very often. They love their Dad how he is, complete with beard. I've used coping strategies all their lives to shelter them from my problems, and that's not going to end now.

So, my coping strategy now is how I deal with the physical changes, and explain them away.

The way it seems to me is that I've never had the driving force to be a woman, just that I wish that I had been born one. That, plus probably my age, makes it immaterial to me how I present whilst I am calmed. All I really want to do now is get on with my (non sex-related) hobbies!

I'd like to thank everyone who I've interacted with so far. It's extremely helpful to be able to vent like this.

I can see what Chrissie means about support groups - I'm just not able in my current circumstances to go to one. That may change, but until it does, I'm very grateful to be able use you good people as a sounding board!

B. x

[beverley.rose]

Thank you for posting this Bryony. I am reading it and having a good think.

Beverley

[julieTG]

THERE IS AN ANSWER

I refer you back too the evanesce herbal site,

Dianne has an increasing database of males or "inbetweeners" who wish too reduce sex drive or gd feelings,

The answer is her blend of Andro ease, this blocks T production and gives the t drive down without feminization,

So grow on PM and then stabilise with Andro ease or calm,

It works, have taken it,

When I reach the growth with PM I desire, I will switch booby fairie off and on to andro ease again,

Julie

[bryony]

THERE IS AN ANSWER

I refer you back to the evanesce herbal site,

Dianne has an increasing database of males or "inbetweeners" who wish too reduce sex drive or gd feelings,

The answer is her blend of Andro ease, this blocks T production and gives the t drive down without feminization,

So grow on PM and then stabilise with Andro ease or calm,

It works, have taken it,

When I reach the growth with PM I desire, I will switch booby fairie off and on to andro ease again,

Julie

Hi Julie,

Hmm. "AndroEase is a drug free formulation using Standardized Herbal Extracts" I'm guessing it's going to be based on Saw Palmetto and the like. I'd be happier if they were a bit more liberal about ingredient information.

Can you give more info on your personal experiences? E.g.

- level of anxiety without taking any herbs at all
- intensity of need to crossdress
- how much PM needed on its own to suppress these feelings and libido
- how long androease took to work
- how long you took it for

That might give a clue about how "bad" you have G-D compared to me, and how much of this stuff I might need to take - although I still feel wary about secret recipe formulations....


TTFN

B.x