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In the opposite direction

#1

Well I didn't do it for long enough but I can certify that there are noticeable effects.

One of the components of my own theoretical breast growth program would be using something like tribulus or d aspartic acid which are testosterone boosters which also simultaneously raise aromatase I guess as in a response to raising the T. You will of course wipe that out by using additional aromatase boosters and something like PM would convert all of it into adrestenedione just waiting to be converted into estrone.

Anyways I digress. I don't have the other components of my program yet (still waiting on the paeoniflorin and pure genistein (both aromatase boosters) to come up from the states - they're stuck at customs; hope they don't get rejected)

so... in the meantime I tried the d-aspartic acid on it's own.

Allegedly what it does is increase free testosterone 40% inside of 2 weeks but also increase estradiol 85% and also increases aromatase an unspecified amount. The effect supposedly goes like testesterone increases for about 90 minutes on it's own then estradiol starts to zoom up after about two hours.

I also know that alcohol e.g. *tequila* is an aromatase booster so...

I took d-a-a for four days at night a couple of hours after supper.
I then drank a couple shots of tequila at the 90 minute mark to give my aromatase a double boost just as the estradiol boosting effect was due to kick in.

I felt more or less normal during the alleged t boosting phase but I felt an almost ridiculous calm and I can only describe it as "aaaaaah" relaxation and a kind of mellow state of mind for about 30 minutes or so.

I wasn't sure if it was the tequila or not LOL (even though it was only a couple of shots - but alcohol doesn't usually affect me in that way).

So anyways I did it only for four days - the last two days my voice *seriously* dropped in tone as if my voice had just broken as during puberty. OH yeah the one other thing I forgot is that I decided to go to 7-11 one of the evenings for some munchies just as the calm/mellow/laid back feeling was hitting and some guy was tailgating me and I mean *seriously* tailgating me. Normally I would have been "f!!!k off dude" and my blood boiling. I was like, whatever and just let him pass and stew in his own juices. That mellowness is *seriously* unlike me. wow.

So what is the take away from this? d-aspartic acid seems like it does what it says on the box and if combined with something that converts all the extra T into E like PM with an aromatase booster then eeeeep!!

My only real concern is that my mom and sister have pretty large boobies and I only want at most a couple inches on each side of the nipple. I'm not really into getting a huge pair of breasts and transitioning all the way or even enough that people start to question my gender.

BUT... it might get addictive. Especially if as some of the other posters have said, those OMG so good feelings are indicative of the idea that I might be TS.

Regardless if I bud seriously rapidly I think I'll just throw it all out. I have pretty strong willpower generally speaking. Hopefully my brain won't become re-programmed to desire to go the full hog.
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#2

(18-02-2012, 03:08 AM)xxd Wrote:  So what is the take away from this? d-aspartic acid seems like it does what it says on the box and if combined with something that converts all the extra T into E like PM with an aromatase booster then eeeeep!!

(Emphasis added)

So... taking this stuff with PM will increase PM's effectiveness? Did I read that right? That's definitely worth looking into... Though I have to admit I don't fully understand the science behind this stuff, so I'm not sure what else I'd need to start taking to serve as the aromatase booster... Blush
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#3

(18-02-2012, 03:37 AM)Alo Wrote:  
(18-02-2012, 03:08 AM)xxd Wrote:  So what is the take away from this? d-aspartic acid seems like it does what it says on the box and if combined with something that converts all the extra T into E like PM with an aromatase booster then eeeeep!!

(Emphasis added)

So... taking this stuff with PM will increase PM's effectiveness? Did I read that right? That's definitely worth looking into... Though I have to admit I don't fully understand the science behind this stuff, so I'm not sure what else I'd need to start taking to serve as the aromatase booster... Blush

Aromatase is what converts androgens into estrogens. You *must* have that.

PM = testosterone down regulator & DHT blocker but it slightly blocks aromatase
Alcohol = aromatase booster
Pure Genistein = aromatase booster (Genistein is from soy but you can't use a mix of soy because that has daidzein and glycetin which both block DHT but strongly inhibit aromatase)
White Peony = aromatase booster
D-Aspartic-Acid = testosterone, aromatase and estradiol booster.

PM by itself will probably work because it blocks DHT and downregulates T to Andro and your existing aromatase will convert some of the andro to Estrogen because the andro to E pathway is easier than the T to E pathway. But more aromatase will for sure help.

The absolute easiest way to get more A is to drink alcohol but *not* beer or red wine. Something pure like tequila.
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#4

I... see, I think. As I said, I can't really follow the science of this stuff too well... Blush

I know you seem to recommend alcohol, but I've been told that I'm the kind of person who gets addicted to stuff easily, and I can kinda see that in myself as well, so I'd rather not gamble with the possibility of becoming an alcoholic...

So, you have D-Aspartic-Acid listed as a aromatase booster as well, would adding just that to my so-far PM-only regimen be any help? Or would something need to be done about/with the estradiol it's boosting too...?
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#5

(18-02-2012, 09:23 AM)Alo Wrote:  I know you seem to recommend alcohol, but I've been told that I'm the kind of person who gets addicted to stuff easily, and I can kinda see that in myself as well, so I'd rather not gamble with the possibility of becoming an alcoholic...


Yeah, you don't want to start taking stuff like tequila everyday. Something tells me that's one of the better ways to make a creature dependant. Give them something mood altering everyday at the same time, pretty soon you start craving it early.

Already have one of those in PM, may want to watch that tequila program ;p
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#6

(18-02-2012, 10:01 AM)SarahSchilling Wrote:  Yeah, you don't want to start taking stuff like tequila everyday. Something tells me that's one of the better ways to make a creature dependant. Give them something mood altering everyday at the same time, pretty soon you start craving it early.

Already have one of those in PM, may want to watch that tequila program ;p

Exactly!

Though I have to say, I'm one of the ones who hasn't really experienced any big mental changes... either that, or they've been so gradual I didn't notice at all... >.> Or I was already so feminine that the changes were negligible... <.< *Shrugs* I dunno, either way I'm not one of the ones who notices some big change in their attitude.
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#7

(18-02-2012, 10:12 AM)Alo Wrote:  Though I have to say, I'm one of the ones who hasn't really experienced any big mental changes... either that, or they've been so gradual I didn't notice at all... >.> Or I was already so feminine that the changes were negligible... <.< *Shrugs* I dunno, either way I'm not one of the ones who notices some big change in their attitude.

Hey welcome to the club, of which up to now I seem to have been the only member!Big GrinBig Grin I don't recall anyone other than me ever saying anything but that PM softens their typically male approach to things.

On a slightly different matter, you keep going on about PM being a testosterone down regulator & DHT blocker and slightly blocks aromatase, none of which I've ever read before ( not arguing just saying) but you seem to completely ignore the fact that it is a proven phyto-estrogen, which is its main ( and I thought, only) function in NBE - or have I missed something?
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#8

(18-02-2012, 04:26 PM)Pansy-Mae Wrote:  On a slightly different matter, you keep going on about PM being a testosterone down regulator & DHT blocker and slightly blocks aromatase, none of which I've ever read before ( not arguing just saying) but you seem to completely ignore the fact that it is a proven phyto-estrogen, which is its main ( and I thought, only) function in NBE - or have I missed something?

I'm sure there *are* studies that go on about the relative potency of particular estrogens vs their natural counterparts but the problem with leaving it at that is that not all phytoestrogens are made equal.

Some of them are still called phytoestrogens and yet they block the activity of estrogen in the body by competitively inhibiting the natural stuff, more strongly bind the receptor sites and then having much weaker action at the receptor sites.

What you want are herbs that have estrogenic effects that *don't* inhibit existing estrogens much and *also* add to the existing effects.


The problem you are asking is "how good is x herb compared to the natural estrogens in the body for doing exactly the same thing" but none of the researchers are asking that question!

There's an even worse problem. Asking the question "how good is x herb compared to natural estrogen in the body for doing exactly the same thing" is really asking 20 questions instead of just one.

Which means in addition to only being able to find the research that is being done it's also far easier to search for references on e.g. pureraria mirifica 5 alpha reductase or pureraria mirifica aromatase or pureraria 17 beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase than it is to look for pureraria mirifica competitive inhibitor estradiol/estriol/estrone, pureraria mirifica agonist estradiol/estriol/estone, pureraria mirifica binding receptor estradiol/estriol/estrone, pueraria relative stength estradiol/estriol/estrone or the other myriad combinations of things the three main estrogens do in the body (there are actually at least one more important one <17-alpha hydroxyestriol> and several lesser ones so the problem compounds even worse).

So to recap are far too many combinations of how the phytoestrogens could work as estrogens and the research *isn't* looking at that. The researchers definitely aren't searching for a better way to feminize someone using herbs. Instead they are looking for their effect on e.g. downregulating breast cancer by means of blocking aromatase or downregulating 5 alpha reductase to block prostate cancer etc etc

So i've sifted through the research looking for something *we* are not looking for and tying the scientific results back to my understanding of the steroid/enzyme tree in order to cut through the bullshit of what should work and what shouldn't work.

Which is not to say there' no value in knowing the many questions you're really asking because what you really want to know is "will this herb feminize me or will it not" but unfortunately as in everything that's not really a single question and the answer is often "yes but..."

Personally speaking I have a bachelors degree in chemistry so I can understand the research that is *there*.

For example gamma linoleneic acid and beta sitosterol are allegedly feminizing according to those who haven't read the research papers and just say they are phytoestrogens. Well yes they are phytoestrogens but while they partially block DHT like estradiol would they also block aromatase strongly and bind to the estradiol site more strongly than estradiol but then have much weaker action than estradiol would.

On the other hand there are other phytoestrognes like PM that doesn't seem to competitively block existing estrogens and also shift's the balance of the overall hormone system of the body towards estrogen dominance which is *good* from our perspective.

Likewise there are chemicals like spironolactone which are *not* phytoestrogens at all but they do things like block DHT strongly, do not inhibit aromatase at all and also downregulate testosterone back to andreneniostine.

Interestingly enough I looked at that this morning after I discovered what PM does to 17B-HSD type 2.

It looks to me that PM's mode of action includes being a slightly weaker version of spiro.

And there are people who feminize by taking only spiro with *no* phytoestrogens.

Anyways I hope your head is not spinning from this. I really enjoy this kind of thing.
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#9

(18-02-2012, 09:23 AM)Alo Wrote:  I... see, I think. As I said, I can't really follow the science of this stuff too well... Blush

I know you seem to recommend alcohol, but I've been told that I'm the kind of person who gets addicted to stuff easily, and I can kinda see that in myself as well, so I'd rather not gamble with the possibility of becoming an alcoholic...

So, you have D-Aspartic-Acid listed as a aromatase booster as well, would adding just that to my so-far PM-only regimen be any help? Or would something need to be done about/with the estradiol it's boosting too...?

Well I'm not actually recommending anything. What I'm saying is "according to my understanding of the steroid cycle, if these things do this to y enzyme then it does that to z hormone and that's positive for our case".

So yes I *think* d-aspartic-acid should help if you are already taking PM but I don't *recommend* anything.

Likewise the research says alcohol is an aromatase booster. I'm pointing out that this is what you want to do *and* it's relatively easy to get *and* if you're already taking PM then it *should* help. But again I'm in no way recommending anybody do anything.

Especially not given how conflicted I am personally about experimenting on myself.

The only thing I *will* give advice on is photoshop!

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#10

(18-02-2012, 06:34 PM)xxd Wrote:  Well I'm not actually recommending anything. What I'm saying is "according to my understanding of the steroid cycle, if these things do this to y enzyme then it does that to z hormone and that's positive for our case".

So yes I *think* d-aspartic-acid should help if you are already taking PM but I don't *recommend* anything.

Likewise the research says alcohol is an aromatase booster. I'm pointing out that this is what you want to do *and* it's relatively easy to get *and* if you're already taking PM then it *should* help. But again I'm in no way recommending anybody do anything.

Ah, okies. Sorry I misunderstood! Blush Still, I'll look into perhaps getting a small amount to try out, myself.
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