[AnnieBL]

As this is my first post, let me provide a little background. My parents hoped that I was going to be Annabel, but I arrived with the wrong equipment. Fantasy aside, I have no plans to be Annabel. At 6ft 4in and heavily built I could never be more than a joke as a woman, and in any case it is now far too late. I am 72 next birthday, although having difficulty in recognizing that I am getting old. So wherever I might have wished to be in the sexual orientation and gender continuums, I need to remain a heterosexual male , not least to remain within the comfort zones of myself and my wife of more than 30 years (and a good friend for 50 years).

In 1999 my health broke down and I found myself in hospital with heart failure and soaring blood pressure. Since then I have been very lucky to be able to resume a normal life with some loss of strength and endurance, but the drugs I have been taking have taken a progressively greater toll on my erectile function, to the extent that Viagra and its cousins gradually ceased to work, the resultant failures having negative and depressing effects on our physical relationship.

At the same time as my male parts were losing function and sensitivity, and indeed physically shrinking,, my nipples and the whole chest area where my breasts would have been if I had had them became much more sensitive. Indeed I thought that there was some development but my wife was firm that I was mistaken. This is the point at which the idea of NBE took hold of me, and I used a course based on Flat-2-Fem instructions for about 5 months without any degree of development that I could persuade myself was real, although at some stage I realised that my nipples were larger and more prominent than before, and there may have been some fat redistribution.

At this point I underwent emergency abdominal surgery unrelated to any existing medical problems, which halted NBE, and once I was fully recovered it did not seem worth continuing.. While I was in hospital, it became apparent that my blood pressure was again out of control, and various doctors having had their input, I have for the last 18 months, amongst other things, been on 50mg per day of Spironolactone. This finally finished off my erectile function and forced us to rethink our physical relationship (if you can’t do something, you have to do something else), and also seems to have reduced my body hair, never very extensive. In time it seemed to be affecting my non-breasts somewhat so I resumed NBE about three months ago. Simplistically, I felt I needed a substitute erogenous zone, but the reality is much more complex than that. I find most male bodies, including my own, to be fairly unattractive, and some slight degree of feminisation can only be an improvement?

I restarted using RC, FG and fennel, very recently adding SP. A few weeks ago I discovered this board, and as it looked as if PM might be the way to go I ordered some, but while I was waiting for it to arrive I realised that I at last had some development with a slightly bruised feeling and firmer zones of about walnut size beneath each nipple. When the PM arrived, I stopped the other herbs except the SP, although after a few days I resumed the FG and am now taking 1000mg PM, 1200mg FG and 160mg 85% SP in the morning and the same in the evening. I monitor my blood pressure fairly rigorously, although for some time it has tended to be on the low side. None of the herbs seem to have any noticeable effect on BP, and a recent battery of blood tests showed everything in order (though it did not include any hormone level tests). There are no noticeable effects as yet from the change in program, although it is probably to early to expect any.

Now, finally, for my questions.

Firstly, is what is happening to me merely due to a known side effect of Spironolactone, or is the NBE working?

Given that Spiro is a recognised anti-androgen, is the SP necessary? In this connection the Spiro seems more effective in treating my prostate problems that the Terazosin that I also take. My urologist says that this cannot be so, but it is. I was never convinced in the past that SP did anything for my prostate.

Should I or should I not take the FG? There seem to be dissenting opinions on this (as on many other aspects of NBE).

Is there anything to be gained by taking something like GABA?

Is it necessary or desirable to take a progestin with PM? Is medroxyprogesterone suitable? It seems to me that such synthetic progesterones are problematical.

AnnabelP

[EricaB]

Welcome to the site Annabel. I sure wish I knew as much as you do about this, but the only advice I can give is to wait patiently for someone knowledgeable to reply. You might google Spironolactone and read what is said about side effects, although I never seem to get any of the side effects that medical sites report, I seem to get unique ones all of my own.

Not sure if you are aware, but you can get generic Spironolactone at Walmart and possibly at competitors for $10 for a 3 month supply or 25mg, so you might need your doc to write the prescription differently in order for Walmart to fill it - you'd have to check with Walmart on what they'd want you to do . You need a prescription but that's the price without insurance. When I get my finasteride from Walmart, I have to tell them to NOT check with insurance as all the insurance company does is deny the 90 day supply and insist on a 30 day supply and then refuse to pay anything for it. So my involving my insurance would simply cost me more.

[AnnieBL]

Thank you EricaB for your reply and welcome.

Since I live in Canada, I suspect that Walmart's prices would not be the same, besides which the nearest Walmart is 30 miles away. I actually pay $20 for a three month supply of Spiro at 50mg/day (in fact split 100mg pills as 50mg are not available) and before that was paying $13+ for 60 25mg pills. My province presently allows a maximum dispensing fee of $9.40 per prescription, plus a small markup on the cost of the drug, but the supermarket pharmacy to which I go must charge less than the maximum fee since I have had small prescriptions filled for less than $9. While brand name drugs may cost less in Canada than the US, the same is not necessarily true of generics, where a cozy system of rebates from generic manufacturers to pharmacies keeps prices up, often to 70% or more of the brand name equivalent. Several provinces including my own are moving to cap generic prices at no more than 40% or even 25% of brand name prices, although dispensing fees will increase. Even so, having no insurance, I hope to see substantial savings later this year.

I have read that Spironolactone causes gynecomastia in about 2.5% of male users, so I may be one of the lucky ones! I suspect that this side effect may be under-reported.

For the record I am intending to post some photos of my progress such as it is in the picture section.

AnnabelP

[bryony]

Hi!

My responses in-line below.

As this is my first post, let me provide a little background. My parents hoped that I was going to be Annabel, but I arrived with the wrong equipment. Fantasy aside, I have no plans to be Annabel. At 6ft 4in and heavily built I could never be more than a joke as a woman, and in any case it is now far too late. I am 72 next birthday, although having difficulty in recognizing that I am getting old. So wherever I might have wished to be in the sexual orientation and gender continuums, I need to remain a heterosexual male , not least to remain within the comfort zones of myself and my wife of more than 30 years (and a good friend for 50 years).

I can relate to that in every sense.

In 1999 my health broke down and I found myself in hospital with heart failure and soaring blood pressure. Since then I have been very lucky to be able to resume a normal life with some loss of strength and endurance, but the drugs I have been taking have taken a progressively greater toll on my erectile function, to the extent that Viagra and its cousins gradually ceased to work, the resultant failures having negative and depressing effects on our physical relationship.

I'm really sorry to hear that. I assume that taking extra testosterone is not allowed because of your condition?

At the same time as my male parts were losing function and sensitivity, and indeed physically shrinking,, my nipples and the whole chest area where my breasts would have been if I had had them became much more sensitive. Indeed I thought that there was some development but my wife was firm that I was mistaken. This is the point at which the idea of NBE took hold of me, and I used a course based on Flat-2-Fem instructions for about 5 months without any degree of development that I could persuade myself was real, although at some stage I realised that my nipples were larger and more prominent than before, and there may have been some fat redistribution.

At this point I underwent emergency abdominal surgery unrelated to any existing medical problems, which halted NBE, and once I was fully recovered it did not seem worth continuing.. While I was in hospital, it became apparent that my blood pressure was again out of control, and various doctors having had their input, I have for the last 18 months, amongst other things, been on 50mg per day of Spironolactone. This finally finished off my erectile function and forced us to rethink our physical relationship (if you can’t do something, you have to do something else), and also seems to have reduced my body hair, never very extensive. In time it seemed to be affecting my non-breasts somewhat so I resumed NBE about three months ago. Simplistically, I felt I needed a substitute erogenous zone, but the reality is much more complex than that. I find most male bodies, including my own, to be fairly unattractive, and some slight degree of feminisation can only be an improvement?

I found that after a few months taking PM, I was able to achieve what I can only describe as a female orgasm by nipple stimulation alone, so there is some hope for you. See http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10947

I restarted using RC, FG and fennel, very recently adding SP. A few weeks ago I discovered this board, and as it looked as if PM might be the way to go I ordered some, but while I was waiting for it to arrive I realised that I at last had some development with a slightly bruised feeling and firmer zones of about walnut size beneath each nipple. When the PM arrived, I stopped the other herbs except the SP, although after a few days I resumed the FG and am now taking 1000mg PM, 1200mg FG and 160mg 85% SP in the morning and the same in the evening. I monitor my blood pressure fairly rigorously, although for some time it has tended to be on the low side. None of the herbs seem to have any noticeable effect on BP, and a recent battery of blood tests showed everything in order (though it did not include any hormone level tests). There are no noticeable effects as yet from the change in program, although it is probably to early to expect any.

My opinion is that PM is the most powerful estrogen mimic amongst the phytoestrogens. I suppose a valid analogy is asking whether you would bother to water your garden with a watering can after dousing it with a firehose. I started to get significant growth when I got up to 3g/day by taking 1 x 500g every 3 hours. Growth spurts seem to occur if the dose is stopped and restarted on a cyclical basis. 1g/day seems to be the recommended dose for women and 2g is the recommended minimum for TG males.

Now, finally, for my questions.

Firstly, is what is happening to me merely due to a known side effect of Spironolactone, or is the NBE working?

Wikipedia says"Because spironolactone reduces the body's production of testosterone and also blocks its testosterone receptors, in men it can cause gynecomastia, impotence, erectile dysfunction, loss of sex drive and other conditions such as reduction of muscle mass, fatigue and physical weakness which are also generally associated with low testosterone levels and hypogonadism in males. For this reason, men are not typically prescribed spironolactone for any longer than a short period of time as for acute heart failure. "

Given that Spiro is a recognised anti-androgen, is the SP necessary? In this connection the Spiro seems more effective in treating my prostate problems that the Terazosin that I also take. My urologist says that this cannot be so, but it is. I was never convinced in the past that SP did anything for my prostate.

I wouldn't have thought so, especially if your spiro usage is going to be long term... but the wiki article implied that it shouldn't be?

Should I or should I not take the FG? There seem to be dissenting opinions on this (as on many other aspects of NBE).

Not with PM - see my comment above.

Is there anything to be gained by taking something like GABA?

From a cursory look at Wiki, I can't see why... but I admit a lack of knowledge.

Is it necessary or desirable to take a progestin with PM? Is medroxyprogesterone suitable? It seems to me that such synthetic progesterones are problematical.

They are and I think it would be a very bad idea. There are all sorts of bad effects from progestins. Apparently micronised (real) progesterone is much better, but the general feeling is that it should not be taken until breast development is near completion (about 3-4 years)

Good luck!

Bryony

[not-moobs]

Hi AnnabelP, sorry to hear about your various problems. Bryony knows a lot more about NBE than I do, so I`ll just add a couple of thoughts which I think are right -

If Spiro lowers testosterone levels, then it isn`t doing the same thing as SP - my understanding is that SP lessens the conversion of testosterone to DHT - which is the more nasty version which is responsible for male pattern baldness, and for doing things to your prostate like BPH and prostate cancer. So the possibility exists that if your testosterone level is down because of some external factor, then SP will have less effect.

A second thought is that it may be advisable for you to investigate the possible interactions between herbs and drugs. I once came across a website that had a big list of herbs, and how they interacted with drugs. I have no idea where it was, it wasn`t what I was looking for at the time, so just moved on. I am afraid that in my experience much of the medical profession has little understanding of herbs, so they may not be able to help you with this, but get googling and you may dig some up useful information.

Another thought is that if you want to make your nipples more sensitive, try pumping them. I`ve been doing it for years, they stick out nicely, and can be incredibly sensitive - I can have a sort of climax just by rubbing them - it`s very short but can be quite intense - and completely separate and different from the normal male stimulation and climax.

Good luck !

PS - historically, SP was used initially for breast growth in woman, it was well known for this. It was only much later that they found about its value in treating prostate problems in men. It is widely used in parts of Europe - particularily Germany - where I believe it is the preferred method for treating prostate problems, rather than drugs. It may have some benefit in breast growth in men, quite apart from its anti-DHT benefits.

[AnnieBL]

Thank you Bryony and 'not moobs' for your helpful advice.

As to testosterone, for some reason it has only recently occurred to me that my testosterone level may be very low. I must find out for certain. If it is very low, then the admittedly very different action of spiro and SP may be immaterial because there will be no T to convert. Past DHT has already done its thing on my scalp and prostate. I am therefore stopping the SP, which I only started, and which never seemed to do much for me in the past, as well as the FG, and we shall see what PM can do on its own. I'll try running the dosage up and down periodically.

You both seem to have achieved some form of climax by nipple stimulation. It was with this possibility in some degree in mind that I first started NBE. I read somewhere that some paraplegic men were able to reprogram themselves to achieve a climax in response to nipple stimulation. I haven't achieved that, but by nipple twisting while doing kegels I can obtain quite an intense response with some degree of spasm within the crotch, quite unlike my usual past male experience.

It looks as if the the strictures on the long term use of spiro are directly related to the side effects which are of interest in the present context. Doctors still tend to assume that people of my age should not want to be sexually active, so such side effects might not be considered: certainly no one told me. In any case I am due to see the cardiologist who prescribed it in a month's time. It did produce some reduction in blood pressure, but the addition of a calcium channel blocker produced much greater effects to the extent that I am experiencing intermittent low blood pressure problems. He may now consider the spiro to be overkill. Time will show whether I will need the SP again.

For developing my nipples, pumping may be something to consider, but for the moment they seem to be sufficiently upstanding and sensitive.

I do try to identify possible interactions from anything I take over and above my prescriptions, and with getting all the prescriptions filled at the same pharmacy they seem to be quite good at spotting potential drug interaction problems.

Thanks again.

[bryony]

Hi again,
I was just wondering about your weight? If you are overweight, losing some makes a huge difference to B.P. I'm 5'8" and lost 28ibs taking me to about 155lbs. My B.P.
Went down from high-normal to "ideal", sometimes almost hypotensive.
You can lose a lot of weight effortlessly with a low carb diet; it can reduce the chances
of diabetes too.

B.

[AnnieBL]

Yes I am overweight. Since my wife and I have rather different approaches to losing weight, we tend to have difficulties in achieving and maintaining results. Ironically, my last fairly successful campaign was just before I got a twisted loop in my gut which required emergency surgery (and temporarily lost me another 15lbs). My blood pressure, which had previously been controlled to around the upper limit of high normal, soared to very high, and refused to come down even after I was otherwise recovered, although eventually control was regained. Even having now regained most of the lost weight, I have like you blood pressure that averages in the ideal range, but with some morning episodes of very low blood pressure and/or low pulse rate. Hence the visit to the cardiologist since it is not apparent which drug or drug combination is responsible for the dips. This effect developed well before my present session of NBE so is presumably unconnected.

I'm currently trying to lose weight again; there are lots of other benefits. Possibly with the help of PM, I hope to move a little way across the barrel to hourglass body shape spectrum.


"Conventional wisdom is an oxymoron" Is that heresy?

[EricaB]

I hate to tell you (and remind myself) that sprouting a lovely pair of D cups (if only) and a corresponding behind as a counterweight isn't likely to reduce your weight. Although the redistribution will be much more fun.

Someone pointed out in another post that losing weight while trying to grow breasts is like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom. We need to gain some weight to have something to add to the chest and a diet defeats that. Ain't life a cruel sometimes?

Although I must say that I've recently lost about 15 pounds in the past couple of months while my chest feels fuller and is starting to jiggle going down stairs. I say it's fuller regardless of what the tape measure says. If only there were a magic bullet to make me Shania Twain's twin.

[bryony]

I hate to tell you (and remind myself) that sprouting a lovely pair of D cups (if only) and a corresponding behind as a counterweight isn't likely to reduce your weight. Although the redistribution will be much more fun.

Someone pointed out in another post that losing weight while trying to grow breasts is like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom. We need to gain some weight to have something to add to the chest and a diet defeats that. Ain't life a cruel sometimes?

Although I must say that I've recently lost about 15 pounds in the past couple of months while my chest feels fuller and is starting to jiggle going down stairs. I say it's fuller regardless of what the tape measure says. If only there were a magic bullet to make me Shania Twain's twin.

I'm not convinced; pubescent girls are often skinny, but they grow them ok.
The real growth (that matters) is breast tissue, which is not fat.
B.