[bryony]

no, I don't plan to start on progesterone (and defiantly not synthetics) for quite a bit, the flat to fem guide suggested every 4th week but I think I may wait a month or 2 at the very least.

I find this flat to fem guide a bit dated and/or suspect. If it doesn't mention PM, it must be dated, because it far outstrips any other herbal, and if it recommends progesterone it is suspect. You really don't need that until you can fill a bra at least.

Search the forum for "micronised" - JulieTG has used it, but had substantial growth beforehand.

I thought of an alternative for breastcream instead of wild yam, I found some liquid Red Clover at the store today and since the Red Clover is said to be good at giving the proper shape to the fat redistribution I thought that might just be a good idea to use and not smell like maple syrup.

Again, if flat2fem recommends wild yam it is doubly suspect.

Yam contains only precursor chemicals, which, if processed by a chemical lab will produce sythetic progesterone - the human body cannot do it. There are no herbal progesterone products on the market right now - until recently it was thought that it did not exist in plants, though apparently there is a small quantity in certain varieties of walnut.

Search this forum for progesterone to see the discussions.

anyhow I just put in an order for some PM from Ainterol and plan to start on that once I get it.

Good plan. Save your money and stick with that - results are [almost] guaranteed! (assuming all your female forbears weren't flat chested!)

B.

[Pansy-Mae]

Your real problem is actually getting anything to go right through the skin rather than simply dry in the top layers...the skin is designed to keep the inside and outside separate, which it is remarkably good at doing!! Most things have a molecular size and structure which will not allow them to penetrate the skin to the point of allowing it to be absorbed by the bloodstream.
Most of the pparent effects of rubbing things on the boobs are really only massaging effects and improving the local blood supply
Thats what carrier creams are for.

Ok, this may sound stupid but i'm completely worn out at the moment & cant sleep, so please forgive me.

Wouldn't the Alcohol in the liquid act as a carrier?

I did notice a significant effect from rubbing it in like that, about 2 hours afterwards I experienced an intense tingling sensation and extreme sensitivity in my breasts.

I'm no expert but I rather suspect that the alcohol on its own would have the opposite effect...alcohol tends to dry the skin not moisturise it. After all, traditionally you use an alcohol rub to dry up blisters and toughen the soles of the feet!!

FWIW, I started with Flat 2 Fem almost 2 years ago, and I went through the "alcoholic tincture" routine as well, first with FG and then WY as she suggested because of the FG smell! However I did mix mine into a body lotion carrier which the book also says to do. Either way neither had any noticeable effect ( although it could have been my impatience!) and after about 6 weeks, I had found this forum and read about PM and made the switch.

As for Bryony's doubts about F2F, well its horses for courses. I think I'm right in saying that Flat2Fem, was its second iteration and it was orginally called Flat 2Fab, or something like that. I did read not too long ago that there is a newer version which does mention PM, but I haven't seen it myself.
I also understand from posts from some of the long standing members on here that Lucille Sorella was actually a member of the old forum and learned everything in her books from the forum.

Finally, as I said, 'horses for courses' - the herbs route does work for some, look at Isabelle, she's currently up to about 38DD, I think, on herbs etc alone, and she wont touch PM. I tried her routine and it made me feel very unwell, so I came back to PM. 6 months of PM got me from flat to a small 36B, but at that I stopped growing and there has been no change for 12months now, no matter what I try. They still hurt, I still get pains, they have slightly changed shape but they ain't growing !
Bryony mentioneed Microgest... thats seems to be the ( nature-identical) progesterone of choice for a lot of TS folks, but again I've been trying it for a couple of months myself and again there has been no change so far.

Having said all that, a former member on here, Chrissie/Chrissiegirl, grew from nothing to a 38C and still growing when she left in a huff, on nothing but PM over about 3 years.

BTW, regarding PM and topical creams... PM needs to be processed by the liver to convert it to a more potent form of estrogen, so PM is actually better taken orally than rubbed on the skin - there is a school of thought that says it is better to apply phyto-hormones topically to avoid the liver, but in this specific case it is actually the better option.

The bottom line is that it is good to ask questions and listen to the answers but you MUST keep in mind above all that nobody can really tell you what to do. We've said it so many times, everyone is different and you have to experiment for yourself and be your own guinea pig.

[Lenneth]

I find this flat to fem guide a bit dated and/or suspect. If it doesn't mention PM, it must be dated, because it far outstrips any other herbal, and if it recommends progesterone it is suspect. You really don't need that until you can fill a bra at least.

Search the forum for "micronised" - JulieTG has used it, but had substantial growth beforehand.

Understood! and yest the flat to fem guide is a bit outdated, at least to one I have is, I e-mailled them about PM and they said they HIGHLY recommend using it.

Again, if flat2fem recommends wild yam it is doubly suspect.

Yam contains only precursor chemicals, which, if processed by a chemical lab will produce sythetic progesterone - the human body cannot do it. There are no herbal progesterone products on the market right now - until recently it was thought that it did not exist in plants, though apparently there is a small quantity in certain varieties of walnut.

Search this forum for progesterone to see the discussions.

in the copy I have they mention it as the next strongest down the list from FG as a Phytoestrogen, little more, for the cream they recommend FG at night and whatever else you can get for during the day to avoid the smell.

Good plan. Save your money and stick with that - results are [almost] guaranteed! (assuming all your female forbears weren't flat chested!)

Will do I ordered 300 500mg capsules to start off.

as far as female relatives go, mom is an A cup, my sister is a B (nearly a C), my grandma on my moms side was an E and my grandma on my dad's side was a DD and the rest of my female relatives are all mostly C-DD.

just hope whatever mine end up that I can still conceal them with a compression vest (would be perfectly happy with even a B although bigger is desirable), my own chest measures 35" under my breasts FYI.

Ive been somewhat Gender Neutral in appearance for as far back as I can remember, never been able to develop even any typical male muscle even after a solid year of pumping iron once.

I'm no expert but I rather suspect that the alcohol on its own would have the opposite effect...alcohol tends to dry the skin not moisturize it. After all, traditionally you use an alcohol rub to dry up blisters and toughen the soles of the feet!!

never knew about that use of alcohol, anyhow after I rubbed in the liquid I did do the massage with some Aveeno Moisturizing Lotion at least.

ah well, will just continue to mix it then, I actually really like the massage, I always feel better afterwards...

[Lenneth]

One other thing, I have upped my SP,RC,FG Dose to 3 times a day and in dosages of 6,6,and FG being 6 in the morning and evening and 3 in the afternoon with 1G PABA in both the morning & evening and 2G GABA in the evening.

So-far no negative effects.
(unless you count breast and groin areas having a tingling sensation and the breast area being overly sensitive [not painful or anything] to contact with fabric, bumps on the road etc being a negative)

although yesterday I did start being calmer, clearer of thought and more at ease than I have been since I was little...

I don't know what that means but I find myself enjoying it thoroughly.

[bryony]

Re: compression vests, I can recommend underarmour heat gear.

Re: feeling calm, have a look at this:
http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm

Also http://www.avitale.com/FAQ.htm#category 4
para. 15A

B.

[Lenneth]

Re: compression vests, I can recommend underarmour heat gear.

Re: feeling calm, have a look at this:
http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm

Also http://www.avitale.com/FAQ.htm#category 4
para. 15A

B.

just confirms what I've suspected/known for a long time.

Thank you for the information Byrony.

on the compression vests, any idea how large of breasts they can successfully hide?

[Lenneth]

Ok, my PM is supposed to arrive Monday so here is what I am thinking of for a dose program.

start at 500mg 2x per day and increase to 3x on the 2nd day then gradually ramp it up to around 3000mg.

I read someplace that some have seen better results when they dropped it down to around 1000-2000mg after a few days at 3000mg then ramp it up again but would like to hear what you think of it.

I will be taking PM jointly with SP and 1000mg PABA in the mornings and before bed as well as 2000mg GABA before bed and "possibly" (still undecided) red clover cream massaged in 1-2 times a day.

what do you guys think?

[Pansy-Mae]

Ok, my PM is supposed to arrive Monday so here is what I am thinking of for a dose program.

start at 500mg 2x per day and increase to 3x on the 2nd day then gradually ramp it up to around 3000mg.

I read someplace that some have seen better results when they dropped it down to around 1000-2000mg after a few days at 3000mg then ramp it up again but would like to hear what you think of it.

I will be taking PM jointly with SP and 1000mg PABA in the mornings and before bed as well as 2000mg GABA before bed and "possibly" (still undecided) red clover cream massaged in 1-2 times a day.

what do you guys think?

I think the ramp up sounds fine except it is too quick, you really ought to spend a week at each level to allow your body to acclimatise. Going to 3000mg quickly is almost guaranteed to give you a blinding headache which no pain killers will shift.

The cycling PM dose was my idea ( I think) based on two things: (1) the fact that I was getting increased itching/tingling/growing pains both on the way up and on the way down, and (2) staying at a high dose all the time can lead to stalling, where the body's feedback mechanism decides that there is too much hormone in total floating around so it shuts down its own production - you need to keep it guessing!

[Lenneth]

I think the ramp up sounds fine except it is too quick, you really ought to spend a week at each level to allow your body to acclimatise. Going to 3000mg quickly is almost guaranteed to give you a blinding headache which no pain killers will shift.

The cycling PM dose was my idea ( I think) based on two things: (1) the fact that I was getting increased itching/tingling/growing pains both on the way up and on the way down, and (2) staying at a high dose all the time can lead to stalling, where the body's feedback mechanism decides that there is too much hormone in total floating around so it shuts down its own production - you need to keep it guessing!

Makes sense.

ok, how about starting at 500mg 3x per day, or if that poses any issues gradually work up to that over 1 week...?

[bryony]

...

on the compression vests, any idea how large of breasts they can successfully hide?

That model just copes with my not-quite-A cup along with a Haynes Beefy T-shirt. I actually cut the neck opening wider so that it doesn't show, and I cut from just below the rib cage down. It winds up like a crop-top. More comfortable that way as it's quite a squeeze on the abdomen, unless you are naturally slim (you are, aren't you?)

It probably won't be sufficient by next September when I will have been on the stuff for a year, but that's a bridge to cross.

Incidentally, I use the cutoff bottom "tube" doubled over as a "bandeau" for when I'm walking around the house in flimsy PJs when one of the kids is around. That's ok for a short while (making tea) but has an irritating habit of sliding down if you reach up for something... but it's easier to get on first thing in the morning.



There are also more powerful purpose-designed vests by Underworks. Look them up on Amazon.

B.