[chrishoney]

I've already mentioned in my previous posts that I had rapid growth
and budding with only 1g a day. I don't think I took more than
30-40g combined. (Yes, I am aware of the fact that no one here has had
such rapid growth and that some go to extreme dosages, I think I read
somewhere even 6g a day, which seems insane, to be honest.)

Thanks for the clarification. Glad to hear you had such great results on 1 g/D. That is atypical however, and to make a blanket recommendation to never exceed 1 g/D without that additional info is misleading, in my opinion.

The high dosage of 6 g/D you mentioned was determined to be effective for that individual after MUCH trial and error and with the stated purpose of relieving his anxiety/feelings/edginess related to GID, and that any breast growth was considered a side effect for him. based on his posts on this forum, I don't think that individual is reckless or insane.

Now, my advice is based on the following:

1. my experience, though very limited, proved that PM really works and is
a powerful herb; although not everyone will get results as fast as I did,
I think that my experience at least puts a lower bound to how fast one
can expect them

2. one should be careful with anything that meddles with one's
metabolism and endocrine system; that holds true especially for
things that create complex, not yet completely understood,
interactions with the body mechanics (you can find many examples
in the drug industry)

The standard advice is to ramp up slowly. Neither I nor anyone else advocates being reckless with this. But just so you know, food "meddles" with your metabolism and endocrine system. Whatever body mechanics has to do with this I certainly don't know, but then we probably mean different things by body mechanics.

3. the manufacturer's recommended dosage is 1g a day, after several
weeks of taking 0.5g a day

The manufacturer's recommended dosage is for men who do NOT wish to have breast enlargement. PM IS used for other purposes.

4. I haven't seen the issues of addiction and drug tolerance seriously
discussed or researched so I tend to be on the safe side here as well;
what's the point of taking 6g a day if after a year you'll need a
maintainance dose of 6g?

If you are talking about breast growth and maintenance, the experience of others on this site is that a maintenance dose is considerably lower than the dose required to stimulate growth. The exact dosage will of course be specific to each individual, so why do you assume it will be the same dosage required to stimulate growth?

I have researched PM extensively and have yet to read ANYTHING that even mentions it has any addictive qualities. On the other hand, I have not seen any studies specifically looking into tolerance or habituation to PM. I have seen laboratory research that failed to establish a LD50 for PM which indicates it has extremely low toxicity levels. Additionally, PM has been used in Thailand and Asia for at least several hundred years. Surely if it was addictive, there would be at least anecdotal reports.

However, a lack of reports certainly does NOT constitute an assurance that addiction to PM is not possible. I agree that caution is always a good thing in matters such as this; I appreciate your position.

Again, thanks for the clarification about your experiences; I somehow missed your previous posts.

[bryony]

....
The high dosage of 6 g/D you mentioned was determined to be effective for that individual after MUCH trial and error and with the stated purpose of relieving his anxiety/feelings/edginess related to GID, and that any breast growth was considered a side effect for him. based on his posts on this forum, I don't think that individual is reckless or insane.

Hi there,

apologies if I've got it wrong, but this sounds a lot like me; if so, I'd like to clarify that the dose I need to keep anxiety/depression etc at bay is 6x500mg / day (3g). I'm sure I would have noticed if there were someone similar who needed double my dose, but, I may have missed it. (If I'm right, thanks for the vote of confidence in my sanity! )

Regardless, I'd like to confirm that I now use PM in this manner primarily, not for breast growth, although that is how I discovered its other beneficial effects. I'd also like to confirm that some people need huge doses to kickstart breast growth. I didn't get any below 3g/day. The irony is that the amount that causes growth with me is the amount required to remove the desire for growth. It's little things like that which suggest that (a) there is a creator, and (b) s/he has a warped sense of humour.

I'm also aware of a former contributor who often needed 4g/day, but that's the most I recall seeing.

Re: addiction, I'd say more a dependency.

I think some perspective is required though: this substance is a powdered root vegetable, and the N Thai people have been eating it for generations. If it had any bad effects, I'm sure they would be documented by now. Of course, Thailand has a rather large number of Katoeys .... but that's no bad thing is it? At least they grow up looking the real deal, rather than the grotesquerie that I would be.

My feeling is that if something improves your quality of life to the extent that this does for me, then it is worth any associated risks.

(Rather like low carbohydrate menus fly in the face of medical orthodoxy - I feel so much healther than with what they would have me eat!)

B.

[chrishoney]

Sorry I misremembered the dose you were taking, but I was referring to you. You're right, I don't remember anyone taking 6 g/D either now that you mention it.

(Rather like low carbohydrate menus fly in the face of medical orthodoxy - I feel so much healther than with what they would have me eat!)

B.

Funny you bring that up, as I have an article in front of me on my desk, by a retired heart surgeon that did upwards of 5000 open-heart surgeries and his firm belief based on a lack of evidence to support low cholesterol/fat high carb diets is that those 'orthodox'

dietary recommendations have created epidemics of obesity and diabetes, the consequences of which dwarf and historical plague in terms of mortality, human suffering and dire economic consequences.

Despite the fact that 25% of the population takes expensive statin medications and despite the fact we have reduced fat content in our diets, more Americans will die this year of heart disease then ever before.

He completely supports a paleo type diet and advocates drastically lowering carbohydrates, especially refined carbs. No wonder then that the Arizona State Medical Board revoked his license even though he was already retired for several years and no longer seeing patients! You aren't supposed to speak out against big pharma and big medicine, even if it is the truth. (http://www.sott.net/articles/show/242516...rt-Disease)

[Lenneth]

Exactly! Personally I have had far to many close relatives "Killed" by Big Pharma and so-called "Conventional Medicine" with bad Medications and Outright screw ups by both doctors and medical staff to ever have any measure of trust in Either or the vast majority of Doctors myself.

My Relatives trusted them, Guess where they are now.

[bryony]

Apologies for off-topic mini-rant....

It's the same in all branches of science now, sadly. There was a golden age when people studied the sciences (including medicine) as a calling; now it's a career. No one wants to lose their job so groupthink applies. Politicisation makes it worse... it didn't end with Lysenko!

I think there is a snowball effect here. Some medic saw a correlation between cholesterol and heart disease and forgot all about the 3rd variable - e.g. arterial inflammation from other causes. A plausible theory was put together, and a huge investment from government made vast changes to the diets of nations. Decades later, obesity is rampant, so much money has been spent, so many lives ruined, so many politicians to get egg on their faces that the bogus theory is supported and becomes orthodox, regardless of misery.

Analogously "global warming". A plausible theory about greenhouse gases is used to fit the correlation of rising temperatures and CO2 emissions, without thinking of any other 3rd variables and not considering the negative feedback effects of more heat = more cloud cover = cooling. No substantial heating for 10 years or more while CO2 has been increasing apace, and they are still making excuses for it, with plans to spend trillions on burying CO2 underground!

We've seen how the peer review process has been corrupted by the release of the "climategate" emails. If in climate science, why not elsewhere? E.g. medicine?

The only people who can speak out against bogus orthodoxy now are either retired (as mentioned) or about to be. All others are "dealt with"... not liquidated as in Lysenko / Stalin's USSR but the next best thing.

So what do we do except repeat the mantra "trust no one?" One of the features of our New World Order is the use of key phrases to close down intelligent debate. In my case it would be "conspiracy theorist" - All very well, but what about if/when there really are consipiracies?

End of rant

B.

[confused]

Thanks for the clarification. Glad to hear you had such great results on 1 g/D. That is atypical however, and to make a blanket recommendation to never exceed 1 g/D without that additional info is misleading, in my opinion.

Right, I may have sounded a bit harsh, but I still think one should tread carefully here.
If my words caused anyone to stop for a moment and think twice, I think I've done
some good.

The standard advice is to ramp up slowly. Neither I nor anyone else advocates being reckless with this. But just so you know, food "meddles" with your metabolism and endocrine system.

Sure, but you can't really compare beef and PM. Or goat cheese and PM.
Or PM and caffeine. The latter is a really good example in that there have
been countless studies on caffeine and its effects on the human body.
The same cannot be said about PM.

Furthermore, the number of consumers of caffeine far, far exceeds the number
of those who consume PM. This in itself is a big thing. By this time people have
already figured out various effects and now know what works and what doesn't.
For PM, I guess one would need to visit Thailand and interview people there
and make a proper study of PM consumption. Even then, one should be careful
since people there do not consume PM as frequently as the members of this
board, or in the same form (I seriously doubt they eat processed PM).

The manufacturer's recommended dosage is for men who do NOT wish to have breast enlargement. PM IS used for other purposes.

By men? Could you please give more details?
(I've seen posts about slowing down the hair loss, but I'm highly skeptic
about that.)

If you are talking about breast growth and maintenance, the experience of others on this site is that a maintenance dose is considerably lower than the dose required to stimulate growth. The exact dosage will of course be specific to each individual, so why do you assume it will be the same dosage required to stimulate growth?

I do not assume. I just wanted to give an example. Realistically, you can't rule
out that option. Now, I very much appreciate and am thankful for all the
information that everyone has put on this board, but at the same time I think
this is not how a proper scientific study is done. A major reason for that
(and this is the same reason why some scientific studies actually fail) is that
almost everyone here is very much biased. Me included.

I have researched PM extensively and have yet to read ANYTHING that even mentions it has any addictive qualities. On the other hand, I have not seen any studies specifically looking into tolerance or habituation to PM. I have seen laboratory research that failed to establish a LD50 for PM which indicates it has extremely low toxicity levels.

Fair enough. But I think we can agree that the number of studies on PM is so small
that it does not make sense to conclude anything. That's why I want to be
on the safe side. Nobody likes being a guinea pig, right? :-)

Additionally, PM has been used in Thailand and Asia for at least several hundred years. Surely if it was addictive, there would be at least anecdotal reports.

Maybe. But please note that they do not use PM the same way we do. And they
do not ingest it every day (for that they should base their cuisine on PM, and
as far as I know about Thailand cuisine, that is not the case).

However, a lack of reports certainly does NOT constitute an assurance that addiction to PM is not possible. I agree that caution is always a good thing in matters such as this; I appreciate your position.

Thanks for understanding. I just wanted to provide another view on the subject,
even if I myself do not always act according to what I said previously.
And I admit some of this came out of my brief experience with PM. I would have
never even imagined that there exists a herb that is capable of producing such
changes, so quickly. Reading most other people's posts here made me think
I have so much time to watch the changes happening slowly. So I was quite
shocked to see it happening contrary to what others have described.