[AbiDrew85]

if you're taking fenugreek, red clover, sal palmetto and maca can you take the maximum dose on the bottle or should you take less because of the effects of the other herbs you're taking?

Actually, you will, in general, be using MORE than the max dose as stated on the bottles. We're using these herbs for other purposes than originally intended, purposes that require more oomph than the intended purposes.

For example, the original purpose of saw palmetto was to treat BPH, a prostatic disorder, the men who are trying to treat this disorder do not wish to block the 90+% possible DHT that SP can get up to, so they generally do not take more than 320 mg of standardized extract. But some of us DO want to, or at least more than what the minimal dosing recommended for BPH is. For that over 90% reduction, you want to be taking over 640mg, and quite possibly up to 1280mg depending on your existing T level, for ~50%, you want between 320-640, depending on existing T level, the recommended dose on the bottle is for BPH, which is intended for around 25% reduction in DHT.

Depending on your T levels, you may want to go anywhere from no DHT reduction and therefore no SP to a 50% reduction in DHT from 320-640mg SP. This is to attempt to prevent DHT from blocking the effects of the estrogens, but not to reduce it to the point where we aren't producing sperm, which is your stated goal.

[sarahlouise41]

if you're taking fenugreek, red clover, sal palmetto and maca can you take the maximum dose on the bottle or should you take less because of the effects of the other herbs you're taking?

Actually, you will, in general, be using MORE than the max dose as stated on the bottles. We're using these herbs for other purposes than originally intended, purposes that require more oomph than the intended purposes.

if i did go for those four herbs what doses would you recommend then? as mentioned, i've already started using fenugreek 610mg capsules and have been taking the two capsules three times a day recommended on the bottle. any recommendations as to a decent cocktail of those four to get things moving without messing things up down below will be much appreciated?

[AbiDrew85]

are the breasts that men can grow actually feminine ones or are they man-boobish?

BOTH!

Men CAN grow feminine boobs. They can also develop what are most colloquially termed as "moobs" which are more sagging fatty deposits than real boobs.

Using a properly balanced herbal regimen for your intended results should allow you to grow real, feminine, pert boobs.

The precursor tissue is present in both men and women, and reacts to estrogens and progesterone and androgens. In women, their particular hormonal balance and arguably the cycling of that balance leads to the expansion and growth of that tissue into proper breasts. In men the lack of estrogen and the lower progesterone and the higher androgens keep that tissue shrunken and undeveloped.

Men can grow this tissue even without herbs or other supplementation, in a condition referred to as gynecomastia. It literally means "woman breast". What actually happens is that the male's testosterone levels drop off while their estrogen and progesterone levels rise, and it's often cycling, and this causes their breasts to develop like a female.

Technically, what you're wanting to do could be called induced gynecomastia.

[AbiDrew85]

if i did go for those four herbs what doses would you recommend then? as mentioned, i've already started using fenugreek 610mg capsules and have been taking the two capsules three times a day recommended on the bottle. any recommendations as to a decent cocktail of those four to get things moving without messing things up down below will be much appreciated?

I am going to direct you to someone's program thread that's already using such a program, I'll be linking directly to the post where she lays out her current plan, since she's genetically female, I believe her current dosing most probably should not render you sterile (also, she's using the 640mg dose I've already suggested as your max for SP). She's also a PCOS sufferer, so I feel that her dosing should be sufficiently strong enough to get you going.

Anyways:

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=12211&pid=59636#pid59636

I do not feel you should buy the two items she's got listed as not reordering. Those are just things she's trying but doesn't feel are doing anything/enough to warrant buying again. You also might not need the progesterone cream, though I do think you should order some, just in case you do end up needing it.

She is planning on switching to PM because she's decided she wants to try something even stronger, but yeah...

BTW... A PM-based plan could still work for you. A lot of guys are on PM only and taking around 1500-2000mg without sterility problems. Others are taking as much as 320mg SP without sterility problems.

[sarahlouise41]

thanx for that. if you did eventually switch to PM would that be instead of SP? is the PM really so much stronger then?

[AbiDrew85]

PM would pretty much replace the entire plan. It is a very powerful phytoestrogen. Chemically speaking, it's difficult to differentiate between the phytoestrogen in pueraria mirifica over natural human estradiol.

You MIGHT still need the SP, but now that you've revealed your age in your other thread, I'm going to go with, if you used PM, you probably wouldn't need ANYTHING else except MAYBE a progesterone cream.

You're at an age where male testosterone levels are typically beginning to drop off. It's either that, or going through the roof in which case you'd be talking to your doctor about stuff like BPH or even androgenic cancers.

Considering your age, you will also want to be very careful with anything you do. It'll be much easier to go sterile with the dropping T levels.

If you notice ANY decrease in sperm, or your semen coming out even the least bit less dense or clearer, you should drop your dosing immediately. If you're on SP, drop it's dose first, if your semen doesn't thicken back up pretty much by 48 hours, then drop it more. Etc.

Cost wise? It's probably a toss up between a PM, PC, SP program and a FG, RC, SP, Maca, PC program. The PM, PC, SP might be slightly cheaper, or slightly more expensive, I'm not sure. Depends on your sources.

[Pansy-Mae]

are the breasts that men can grow actually feminine ones or are they man-boobish?

Best thing to do is look at the piccys in the pictures section and see the range for yourself and make up your own mind.
Mine are at http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9317&page=7 and show my progress over two years, but look at all the threads and see for yourself.

It is to some extent at least age related, the older you are when you start the slower the progress and the smaller the end result is likely to be.

[sarahlouise41]

Got the maca, saw palmetto and red clover to add to fenugreek already taking. Just one other thing. Is it a good idea to spread the dosage around the day i.e. take one SP in the morning and one later or take both at the same time?

[AbiDrew85]

Some people take it all at once, some spread it out, I personally believe that spreading it out is best... But there's no real evidence either way.

So, do whatever you're most comfortable with. I take so much stuff that taking it all at once would be impossible.

Though with certain ones, you DO need to spread them out, or you won't absorb it all, fenugreek is one such.

I spread all my supplements between a morning, midday, and evening dose.

[Doll]

Maca is an adaptogen whose effects would be better explained by someone other than me, I'm not completely clear on what it does.

I don't know a LOT about maca, but as a female, I definitely like it. It helps in keeping my hormones balanced and prevents me from becoming either progesterone or estrogen dominant. Since it IS an adaptogen, it will tell your body to create more of whatever hormone it may be lacking. So, for us females, it creates more testosterone (this, of course, in addition to balancing estrogen and progesterone). This is a LOT of what causes women to grow larger butts; the increased T helps the body build the butt muscles even with everyday walking, and helps to round and plump the butt.

With males, however, I have heard that it will cause the body to create extra estrogen, since that is what will be naturally lower. That being said, I will not guarantee that the same thing will occur in someone who's already taking estrogenic herbs. Since us females are already increasing our estrogen with NBE, maca can continue to do what it's expected to do, and create more T. However, it's possible that in a biological male taking estrogenic herbs that it might actually register an imbalance and begin creating more T.

Pretty much everything I've heard about maca I've heard from women, so it's impossible for me to say whether or not it might actually be in your best interest.