[PattiJT]

While it's not a definitive study by any means, my enforced hiatus from NBE due to my parents requiring assistance has provided some information of what to expect, depending, of course, on where one is when one quits.

1. I went from a 44 and 3/4" bust to a 43 and 1/2" bust. The only things I can say for sure, is that I dropped that in the 1st 2 months, and lost none after that. So, if we indeed have that "core" breast development of tissue, ducts, and ligaments, etc., one may assume that it probably will stick around. As others have conjectured, I believe my loss was a fat loss. Kinda disgusting, since the added stress led me to eat many not-so-desireable meals, and add 15 pounds while there. Guess breast fat is not the same as other body fat? Does that mean that if one loses body fat, you won't necessarily lose booby fat? But, there is a lesson here for those who think they can grow boobs, and then lose them when their attitude changes. Buds, maybe, but looks like real boobies are forever. Not a convenience item. At least my 38" underbust hasn't changed, so still plenty to work with, and do expect to get the previous size back.

2. Teste size is unchanged. Mainly meaning they did not recover any size. They'd shrunk a good bit and have stayed there. I passed an opportunity to conduct another test regarding them. My last bloodwork before I left on my 1000 mile adventure, showed T to be "30", 10% or less of minimum. She prescribed me T patches, but I really prefer thelittle fellas to be small as they can be. Everything tucks away so nicely in panties this way. (sorry, don't think we need those photos)! Had I taken the patches, I could have found out if the addition of T would bring tham back up to speed. Leave that test to someone else. I'd consider that a major caution also to anyone thinking they can push the boundary, then bring them back. Might not be the case. Conversely, it's good news for those who want them small like I do!

3. With no anti-androgen or estrogen input, body hair has started to grow at a slightly faster rate. What had been removed by epilating, however, has still remained absent. Coversely, what scalp hair had been returning, has stopped. God give me more finpeci!a. Have checked that block on my order list.

4. No change in body odor. Although I lost mine while taking different things than many of you, it's worth noting that for whatever reason it changed, is stayed the same when all treatment stopped. Also worth noting that part of that may be due to my age. And of course, we all know that us retired folks don't sweat much anymore. (Yeah, right)!

5. Skin and nail changes. Skin has seemed to stay clearer, yet have a little more resistance to the easy bruising brought on by the blood thinner I take for my blood pressure. No change in nails, either in their condition or growth rate. And putting clear polish on them weekly gives me plenty of time to notice any changes.

6. Some of you won't care about this one, but my crossdressing urges are back, with a vengeance!! I got back home, had a talk, then a shower, and spent a half hour standing in front of the closet trying to figure out what to wear. I wanted to try it all on! I know this is going to be controversial, ( and most of you know I haven't shied away from that), but "I" don't want to lose that again. You also know that I previously used the "forbidden" drugs before I came here. I won't debate that any further, but will say that as long as I took them, I had no decrease in my desire to dress. Therefore, ahem, I'm considering mixing a bit of them into my program, along with PM, and possibly a couple other herbs. This was never an ill-conceived venture from the beginning, and I do try to minimize my risks. My wife depends on me and expects no less. I keep my blood checked, and only used injectible estrogen. I'm leaning toward resuming that at 1/2 or less of the prior dosage, and cutting PM to 1.5-2 grams, from 3-3.5 grams. Had always maintained that dosage of PM, and noticed none of the effects some others seem to have had. Probably due to being accustomed to fair doses of estrogen prior to switching to PM. While on the PM, (no syn. estrogen the last year or so,) I continued to use Finpecia as an anti-androgen. Will have to think about all this for a bit, first. Feel free to hate me if I do, and toss me if you want, but I have this undying curiousity about the possibilities, (as well as an undying quest for Boobies). Personally, I've had a wonderful time here, and we share many of the same questions, doubts, and goals. I'd hate to go, and I'd also hate to upset anyone. And I'd probably be bull-headed and stay anyway!

Before I finish this, I have a question for the analytical among us. I'm curious about whether if I use the T patches, would they provide a useful source of T for conversion into estrogen? Maybe they wouldn't be a waste of money after all.

This has become one of those normally long posts. Wish everyone well, and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!! Patti

[AbiDrew85]

While it's not a definitive study by any means, my enforced hiatus from NBE due to my parents requiring assistance has provided some information of what to expect, depending, of course, on where one is when one quits.

I have no intention of ever quitting, and have in fact recently stepped up the game... But I'm also a bit different than norm around here, being full MtF transsexual, single, and quite willing to toss aside the scraps of the not-life I had been living.

1. I went from a 44 and 3/4" bust to a 43 and 1/2" bust. The only things I can say for sure, is that I dropped that in the 1st 2 months, and lost none after that. So, if we indeed have that "core" breast development of tissue, ducts, and ligaments, etc., one may assume that it probably will stick around. As others have conjectured, I believe my loss was a fat loss. Kinda disgusting, since the added stress led me to eat many not-so-desireable meals, and add 15 pounds while there. Guess breast fat is not the same as other body fat? Does that mean that if one loses body fat, you won't necessarily lose booby fat? But, there is a lesson here for those who think they can grow boobs, and then lose them when their attitude changes. Buds, maybe, but looks like real boobies are forever. Not a convenience item. At least my 38" underbust hasn't changed, so still plenty to work with, and do expect to get the previous size back.

Wow. Well. I guess this forever ends THAT debate. Something I was wrong about too. I'd always thought that you'd lose a bit more than that... Anyhoo, about the gaining fat from junk food but losing boob fat: I don't know if you were tracking your waist band during this time but I'll bet that it was gaining in circumference faster than you were losing circumference around the bust.

2. Teste size is unchanged. Mainly meaning they did not recover any size. They'd shrunk a good bit and have stayed there. I passed an opportunity to conduct another test regarding them. My last bloodwork before I left on my 1000 mile adventure, showed T to be "30", 10% or less of minimum. She prescribed me T patches, but I really prefer thelittle fellas to be small as they can be. Everything tucks away so nicely in panties this way. (sorry, don't think we need those photos)! Had I taken the patches, I could have found out if the addition of T would bring tham back up to speed. Leave that test to someone else. I'd consider that a major caution also to anyone thinking they can push the boundary, then bring them back. Might not be the case. Conversely, it's good news for those who want them small like I do!

This is in standing with my own understanding on this subject. That is, that after long enough exposure to estrogen and anti-androgens, you WILL permanently chemically castrate yourself.

3. With no anti-androgen or estrogen input, body hair has started to grow at a slightly faster rate. What had been removed by epilating, however, has still remained absent. Coversely, what scalp hair had been returning, has stopped. God give me more finpeci!a. Have checked that block on my order list.

Again, this is fitting with chemical castration. Women with slightly high androgens will also grow body hair faster. But that your removed hair isn't growing back means that you are no longer functionally male. (Sorry if that bothers you? But it's truth. And people SHOULD be aware that this is in their future if they go down this path, eventually, unless they are EXTREMELY careful.)

4. No change in body odor. Although I lost mine while taking different things than many of you, it's worth noting that for whatever reason it changed, is stayed the same when all treatment stopped. Also worth noting that part of that may be due to my age. And of course, we all know that us retired folks don't sweat much anymore. (Yeah, right)!

Haha. Love the self-joke there. Seriously though. Good to know! I'm always worried that if I go off my herbs I'll start smelling like a yucky guy again...

5. Skin and nail changes. Skin has seemed to stay clearer, yet have a little more resistance to the easy bruising brought on by the blood thinner I take for my blood pressure. No change in nails, either in their condition or growth rate. And putting clear polish on them weekly gives me plenty of time to notice any changes.

Interesting things to note here.

6. Some of you won't care about this one, but my crossdressing urges are back, with a vengeance!! I got back home, had a talk, then a shower, and spent a half hour standing in front of the closet trying to figure out what to wear. I wanted to try it all on! I know this is going to be controversial, ( and most of you know I haven't shied away from that), but "I" don't want to lose that again. You also know that I previously used the "forbidden" drugs before I came here. I won't debate that any further, but will say that as long as I took them, I had no decrease in my desire to dress. Therefore, ahem, I'm considering mixing a bit of them into my program, along with PM, and possibly a couple other herbs. This was never an ill-conceived venture from the beginning, and I do try to minimize my risks. My wife depends on me and expects no less. I keep my blood checked, and only used injectible estrogen. I'm leaning toward resuming that at 1/2 or less of the prior dosage, and cutting PM to 1.5-2 grams, from 3-3.5 grams. Had always maintained that dosage of PM, and noticed none of the effects some others seem to have had. Probably due to being accustomed to fair doses of estrogen prior to switching to PM. While on the PM, (no syn. estrogen the last year or so,) I continued to use Finpecia as an anti-androgen. Will have to think about all this for a bit, first. Feel free to hate me if I do, and toss me if you want, but I have this undying curiousity about the possibilities, (as well as an undying quest for Boobies). Personally, I've had a wonderful time here, and we share many of the same questions, doubts, and goals. I'd hate to go, and I'd also hate to upset anyone. And I'd probably be bull-headed and stay anyway!

I'm also different in this regard... Since I'm a transsexual, I do not consider dressing in female clothing to be crossdressing at all. It's wearing male clothing that's crossdressing to me. And believe you me I have absolutely no urges in THAT direction. I purged almost all my male clothes as soon as I realized that they no longer fit me AT ALL anyways. As far as pants go... Getting them up over my hips was even harder than the tightest of my female clothes and then they'd insist on sitting on and compressing my hips because I had so much smaller a waist. As for tops... err... shirts, sorry. I just didn't care for most of them anymore. I've kept a few old torn up t-shirts for pajamas.

Oh, and, I'm taking EV as of a few days ago. I believe that taking both estradiol and PM will be of greater benefit. I'm also emulating a regular female cycle. See the link in my sig and go to I think page 10 or so if you want more info.

Before I finish this, I have a question for the analytical among us. I'm curious about whether if I use the T patches, would they provide a useful source of T for conversion into estrogen? Maybe they wouldn't be a waste of money after all.

I don't think there's been sufficient studies done on the male potential for aromatization to be certain of this. Since your T is "30" which is surprisingly well within range of "female" I would be interested to find out what your results would be... Though I fear you might find it does the opposite of what you are wanting.

This has become one of those normally long posts. Wish everyone well, and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!! Patti

Merry Christmas to you and a Happy New Year as well!

[Lenneth]

I hope everything works out well for you, and that you stick around, i'm honestly surprised we haven't had any recent posts from diva, hope she didn't think she had to leave....

[bryony]

Hi Patti,

I'd encourage you, if you haven't, to look at the abstracts of papers on PM in Google Scholar. I'm no scientist, but it looks to me like PM is a lot safer than pharm hormones. There are ( I think) 3 kinds of estrogen, and PM replicates the safest form. I seem to recall papers that indicate that PM not only is unlikely to cause breast cancer, but actually to protect against it. The only thing that would make me consider pharm hormones would be the unavailability of PM.

Good luck,

B.

[AbiDrew85]

I'd encourage you, if you haven't, to look at the abstracts of papers on PM in Google Scholar. I'm no scientist, but it looks to me like PM is a lot safer than pharm hormones. There are ( I think) 3 kinds of estrogen, and PM replicates the safest form. I seem to recall papers that indicate that PM not only is unlikely to cause breast cancer, but actually to protect against it. The only thing that would make me consider pharm hormones would be the unavailability of PM.

Bryony,

He mentioned he was using and is considering using again injectables. Which are presently known to be the safest pharm hormones provided proper sterilization procedures are followed and the needle is properly injected and so forth. I'm using pills otoh, which aren't quite nearly as safe, but much cheaper... They're still considered "safe enough".

The truly "unsafe" pharm hormones are the pharmaceutical anti-androgens and the "conjugated" hormones. Such as premarin. And among those, finasteride, which is what finpecia is, is one of the safest pharmaceutical anti-androgens. Actually, it's essentially the same thing as saw palmetto only far more powerful. It only really becomes unsafe for "normal" males who can become clinically depressed and even suicidal on too high a dose due to the perceived and very real loss of their maleness.

Enough finasteride can actually completely shut down the testes, which is, I imagine, what Patti has done. I actually doubt Patti needs finasteride anymore and just going back on PM would be all that's necessary at this point for the body hair to slow back down again.

[flamesabers]

I hope everything works out well for you, and that you stick around, i'm honestly surprised we haven't had any recent posts from diva, hope she didn't think she had to leave....

I also hope everything works out for you PattiJT.

In regards to diva's absence, I have the feeling that she and other members may have a lot going on in their lives lately, which is why they haven't posted recently. It would be unfortunate if she left because she no longer felt welcomed.

Hi Patti,

I'd encourage you, if you haven't, to look at the abstracts of papers on PM in Google Scholar. I'm no scientist, but it looks to me like PM is a lot safer than pharm hormones. There are ( I think) 3 kinds of estrogen, and PM replicates the safest form. I seem to recall papers that indicate that PM not only is unlikely to cause breast cancer, but actually to protect against it.

For genetic males, wouldn't any benefit pm provides in reducing the chance of breast cancer be countered by the added risk of getting breast cancer due to the growth of breast tissue? After all, the development of breast tissue is what makes genetic females more susceptible to breast cancer than genetic males who have practically non-developed breast tissue.

[bryony]

Hi!

...

For genetic males, wouldn't any benefit pm provides in reducing the chance of breast cancer be countered by the added risk of getting breast cancer due to the growth of breast tissue? After all, the development of breast tissue is what makes genetic females more susceptible to breast cancer than genetic males who have practically non-developed breast tissue.

Well there are 3 types of Estrogen. From Wiki,
"The three major naturally occurring estrogens in women are estrone (E1), estradiol (E2), and estriol (E3). Estradiol is the predominant estrogen during reproductive years both in terms of absolute serum levels as well as in terms of estrogenic activity."

Then:
"Breast cancer
About 80% of breast cancers, once established, rely on supplies of the hormone estrogen to grow: they are known as hormone-sensitive or hormone-receptor-positive cancers. Suppression of production of estrogen in the body is a treatment for these cancers."

There is some controversy about whether estriol is "safer" than estradiol w.r.t. breast cancer. PM is supposed to be bioidentical to estriol. Regardless of the controversy, there is research to support it's protective effects - I've copied the abstract and conclusion below.

Link here: Research Paper
"Abstract

Objective

Phytoestrogens have been reported to exhibit antiproliferation to human breast cancer cells in vitro. We tested the phytoestrogen-rich, Pueraria mirifica against rat breast cancer induction in vivo.

Methods

The weanling female Spargue–Dawley rats were pretreated with P. mirifica tuberous powder at a dosage of 0, 10, 100 and 1000 mg/kg BW/day for four consecutive weeks. Mammary tumor development was then induced with a single dose of 7,12-DMBA, 80 mg/kg BW, followed by a weekly examination for size and multiplicity of mammary tumors for 20 weeks and finally a necropsy. Mammary tissues were investigated for the virulence of tumor and also monoclonal antibody stained against ERα and ERβ.

Results

Pretreatment of 1000 mg/(kg BW day) of P. mirifica tuberous powder resulted in decreasing of the virulence of rat tumor development. The mammary tumor tissues exhibited lower profile of ERα and ERβ as well as ERα/ERβ.

Conclusion

P. mirifica exhibited prevention of 7,12-DMBA-induced rat mammary tumors, with a proposed mechanism of strong competitive binding of its phytoestrogens to ERα and/or synthesis suppressor of ERα."

Given that, I'd rather play safe.

B.

[bryony]

Bryony,

He mentioned he was using and is considering using again injectables. Which are presently known to be the safest pharm hormones provided proper sterilization procedures are followed and the needle is properly injected and so forth. I'm using pills otoh, which aren't quite nearly as safe, but much cheaper... They're still considered "safe enough".

The truly "unsafe" pharm hormones are the pharmaceutical anti-androgens and the "conjugated" hormones. Such as premarin. And among those, finasteride, which is what finpecia is, is one of the safest pharmaceutical anti-androgens. Actually, it's essentially the same thing as saw palmetto only far more powerful. It only really becomes unsafe for "normal" males who can become clinically depressed and even suicidal on too high a dose due to the perceived and very real loss of their maleness.

Enough finasteride can actually completely shut down the testes, which is, I imagine, what Patti has done. I actually doubt Patti needs finasteride anymore and just going back on PM would be all that's necessary at this point for the body hair to slow back down again.

Hi Abi,

I understand, and if PM were not available, then it sounds reasonable: however, see my reply to Flamesabres above... I'm too risk averse. If as it seems it is much, much safer w.r.t breast cancer, why take the risk? PM seems extraordinarily potent. Since I started, about 15 months ago, at the age of 59, I've gone from 35 under, 37 around to 39 around, and a definite A cup. I presume that I will keep growing for the usual period (3 years?) and would have thought that this level of growth would be about right for a pubescent female. I'm not convinced that pharm hormones would do the job any more efficiently. But its just my opinion, of course. I don't seek to push my opinion on anyone, just following my usual instinct to alert them to risks.

Good luck,

B.

[PattiJT]

Hello Bryony,
I for one don't consider anything you said sounding "pushy". I understand your safety concerns, and do agree that PM is probably safer that Pharmas. There is an awful wide variety of regimes being tested among the group here, and who's to say what is best and what is worst. Personally, I have a suspicion that had I maintained a consistent and not off-and-on program since I started, I may well have already been where I wanted to go. And maybe not. I'm considering mixing like I said in order to get the benefits of both. Because, I believe that the Pharms are indeed a shorter path. But the only way to know would be for you to do something you don't want to do. No harm, no foul. When you mention you'd only take them if PM wasn't available, I suspect that would not be applicable to you, as I don't think they would give you the mental result you get from PM. Remember that part of why I want to mix is because I don't want the dressing to be pushed aside. So, I don't think they would have the calming effect on you. But, you would get boobies!! Fair tradeoff? Oh, the conundrums we face!

And yes, Abi, the waistline went up more than the bustline went down. Very measurably so. Lots of folks in here tonight, So everyone have a Wonderful Christmas!! Patti

[bryony]

Hello Bryony,
I for one don't consider anything you said sounding "pushy". I understand your safety concerns, and do agree that PM is probably safer that Pharmas. There is an awful wide variety of regimes being tested among the group here, and who's to say what is best and what is worst. Personally, I have a suspicion that had I maintained a consistent and not off-and-on program since I started, I may well have already been where I wanted to go. And maybe not. I'm considering mixing like I said in order to get the benefits of both. Because, I believe that the Pharms are indeed a shorter path. But the only way to know would be for you to do something you don't want to do. No harm, no foul. When you mention you'd only take them if PM wasn't available, I suspect that would not be applicable to you, as I don't think they would give you the mental result you get from PM. Remember that part of why I want to mix is because I don't want the dressing to be pushed aside. So, I don't think they would have the calming effect on you. But, you would get boobies!! Fair tradeoff? Oh, the conundrums we face!

And yes, Abi, the waistline went up more than the bustline went down. Very measurably so. Lots of folks in here tonight, So everyone have a Wonderful Christmas!! Patti

Hi Patti,

actually, if you read the Vitale FAQ, it seems to be quite clear that the mental effects are due to supplying estrogen to a feminised brain that feels starved of it. PM is supposed to be bioidentical to estriol, one of the 3 types of estrogen.

Anyway, good luck, and Merry Christmas (somewhat belatedly!)

B.