20-02-2013, 01:30 PM
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Patti
22-02-2013, 02:48 AM
Circeena,
I am currently taking tamulosin for BPH, together with SP (which is supposed to work well together with tamulosin) and PM (see my recent thread on PM & blood pressure for dosage details, although the BP effects Inoted were probably due to cholestyramine). I don't take finasteride; it has never struck me as one of the more effective prescription pharmaceuticals and even my urologist only very tentatively suggested it. SP may be almost as effective and has less side effects. I don't know of any actual interactions between PM and SP although many think that PM is best left to do its own thing. Both finasteride and SP are 5-aromatase inhibitors which help prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT, but PM itself contains beta-sitosterol which itself is an 5-ARI. I also take some additional beta-sitosterol since it is a constituent of another supplement I take. Effects have been generally similar to those reported by PansyMae although my breast development is much less impressive. As for brain rewiring, the phytoestrogen in PM works by bonding to estrogen receptors in the body, including the brain as well as the breasts so there are likely to be brain effects as well as boob effects! What these will be will vary fom person to person.
Note that 5-ARIs will only inhibit conversion of T to DHT, but probably do little to inhibit T production. I was prescribed spironolactone over an 18 month period, which does inhibit T production and seems to have finished off what was left of my male function, apparently permanently. Subsequently stopping PM and taking Butea superba and later tongkat ali for several months did little or nothing to restore function. I have a suspicion that taking Siterone (ciproterone) as proposed by PattiJT might have a similar effect in the long term.
Hope this helps.
I am currently taking tamulosin for BPH, together with SP (which is supposed to work well together with tamulosin) and PM (see my recent thread on PM & blood pressure for dosage details, although the BP effects Inoted were probably due to cholestyramine). I don't take finasteride; it has never struck me as one of the more effective prescription pharmaceuticals and even my urologist only very tentatively suggested it. SP may be almost as effective and has less side effects. I don't know of any actual interactions between PM and SP although many think that PM is best left to do its own thing. Both finasteride and SP are 5-aromatase inhibitors which help prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT, but PM itself contains beta-sitosterol which itself is an 5-ARI. I also take some additional beta-sitosterol since it is a constituent of another supplement I take. Effects have been generally similar to those reported by PansyMae although my breast development is much less impressive. As for brain rewiring, the phytoestrogen in PM works by bonding to estrogen receptors in the body, including the brain as well as the breasts so there are likely to be brain effects as well as boob effects! What these will be will vary fom person to person.
Note that 5-ARIs will only inhibit conversion of T to DHT, but probably do little to inhibit T production. I was prescribed spironolactone over an 18 month period, which does inhibit T production and seems to have finished off what was left of my male function, apparently permanently. Subsequently stopping PM and taking Butea superba and later tongkat ali for several months did little or nothing to restore function. I have a suspicion that taking Siterone (ciproterone) as proposed by PattiJT might have a similar effect in the long term.
Hope this helps.
22-02-2013, 03:36 AM
(22-02-2013, 02:48 AM)AnnabelP Wrote: Both finasteride and SP are 5-aromatase inhibitors *snip* beta-sitosterol which itself is an 5-ARI.
Note that 5-ARIs will only inhibit conversion of T to DHT, but probably do little to inhibit T production. I was prescribed spironolactone over an 18 month period, which does inhibit T production and seems to have finished off what was left of my male function, apparently permanently. Subsequently stopping PM and taking Butea superba and later tongkat ali for several months did little or nothing to restore function. I have a suspicion that taking Siterone (ciproterone) as proposed by PattiJT might have a similar effect in the long term.
Hope this helps.
You have the shorthand correct, and what it does, but not the actual term it is short for. There is no such thing as "5-aromatase", aromatase is a separate enzyme responsible for a different conversion, that of T and E1 into E2, aka, estradiol. (And there's actually ANOTHER conversion path to E2 that completely evades aromatase altogether, but that path is responsible for such a small trace amount of a person's overall E2 as to be barely worth mentioning, other than for me to show off a little every now and then
)And if PM contained an aromatase inhibitor it would NEVER produce the kind of effects it does! Seriously!
The term you were attempting to use is 5-alpha-reductase. That's the 5-AR that a 5-ARI inhibits.
Sorry about getting snippy with you (pun intended
) but I couldn't in good conscience allow the possible confusion your own confusion might produce. Not when it was a fairly simple matter for me to clarify terms.
22-02-2013, 03:52 AM
(22-02-2013, 03:36 AM)AbiDrew85 Wrote: The term you were attempting to use is 5-alpha-reductase. That's the 5-AR that a 5-ARI inhibits.
Sorry about getting snippy with you (pun intended
Abi,
I'm glad you caught and corrected that. I read it, know better, and didn't catch it or I would have said something. I'm glad somebody is paying attention.
Oh, and just because I feel like showing off, there's a few major classes of anti-androgens. That's the "family" name for any chemical or combination of chemicals responsible for a diminishing effect on the masculinization of a given entity.
The one we have discussed primarily here is known as a 5-ARI, or 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor. It does just as Annabel stated it does. And that's all it does.
Something interesting which Annabel accidentally lumped together with a 5-ARI assuming that since this chemical is present in saw palmetto, aka SP, which is a known 5-ARI, this chemical MUST therefore be the 5-ARI in SP... But in truth, beta-sitosterol is NOT a 5-ARI. PM, aka pueraria mirifica contains no known 5-ARI. What it does contain is beta-sitosterol among others, all belonging to another class of anti-androgen: receptor antagonists, or blockers. These are chemicals that bind to the receptor sites for androgens, of which testosterone and dihydrotestosterone are the most potent, but instead of being potent, they are extremely weak. They may bind more strongly or weakly than the bodies natural hormones, but they still bind at least some of the time. The more strongly they bind while producing the least masculinizing effect, the better suggested their use as an anti-androgen.
Both 5-ARI's and receptor antagonists can be further subclassed, but I won't go into that for simplicities sake. Let's just say there's actually two different forms of 5-AR and many different classes of androgen receptor, the latter of which leads to a HUGE selection of things classed as a receptor antagonist that really aren't all that useful in practical application.
Then there's yet another umbrella which Annabel very lightly touched upon, and that's of something that actually blocks the production of androgens to begin with. Again, there are different classes of these, and they are more rightly referred to in the same manner as 5-ARI's... They act as inhibitors of the various reduction pathways that our steroidal hormones follow to reach the end goals of, again, for simplicity, either DHT or E3.
The one that Annabel mentioned is actually one of the more dangerous ones. Just like licorice it has unintended consequences upon other hormonal paths that we really aren't wanting to mess with at all.
There's others which block production closer and closer to our real target, Testosterone.
The problem is, even the absolutely most well targeted of these STILL has unintended consequences: As well as blocking T, it blocks E1 from becoming E2.
Finally, there's one last "anti-androgen" that is only very loosely able to be termed such, because it's in fact, a PRO-aromatase. These are chemicals or combinations of chemicals which either act as a replacement for aromatase, or which promotes the activity of the body's own already existing aromatase, or which promotes the production of more of the body's own aromatase. The best known pro-aromatase's are white peony and hops, though not a whole lot of research has been done on exactly HOW they promote aromatase, though it is assumed that they are not identical.
*EDIT*
Note: I have at times been accused of being more "scientific" among the male members of the board... I suppose this is probably true, but that's more because the science I know best is all the various ways in which one can go about the war with androgens.
I do my share of the research on the other aspects, but I am quite a bit more versed on fighting the androgens, largely because that's the one fight that I'm having the most difficulty winning. I was born with a tendency towards quite a LOT of androgen production.
The one we have discussed primarily here is known as a 5-ARI, or 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor. It does just as Annabel stated it does. And that's all it does.
Something interesting which Annabel accidentally lumped together with a 5-ARI assuming that since this chemical is present in saw palmetto, aka SP, which is a known 5-ARI, this chemical MUST therefore be the 5-ARI in SP... But in truth, beta-sitosterol is NOT a 5-ARI. PM, aka pueraria mirifica contains no known 5-ARI. What it does contain is beta-sitosterol among others, all belonging to another class of anti-androgen: receptor antagonists, or blockers. These are chemicals that bind to the receptor sites for androgens, of which testosterone and dihydrotestosterone are the most potent, but instead of being potent, they are extremely weak. They may bind more strongly or weakly than the bodies natural hormones, but they still bind at least some of the time. The more strongly they bind while producing the least masculinizing effect, the better suggested their use as an anti-androgen.
Both 5-ARI's and receptor antagonists can be further subclassed, but I won't go into that for simplicities sake. Let's just say there's actually two different forms of 5-AR and many different classes of androgen receptor, the latter of which leads to a HUGE selection of things classed as a receptor antagonist that really aren't all that useful in practical application.
Then there's yet another umbrella which Annabel very lightly touched upon, and that's of something that actually blocks the production of androgens to begin with. Again, there are different classes of these, and they are more rightly referred to in the same manner as 5-ARI's... They act as inhibitors of the various reduction pathways that our steroidal hormones follow to reach the end goals of, again, for simplicity, either DHT or E3.
The one that Annabel mentioned is actually one of the more dangerous ones. Just like licorice it has unintended consequences upon other hormonal paths that we really aren't wanting to mess with at all.
There's others which block production closer and closer to our real target, Testosterone.
The problem is, even the absolutely most well targeted of these STILL has unintended consequences: As well as blocking T, it blocks E1 from becoming E2.
Finally, there's one last "anti-androgen" that is only very loosely able to be termed such, because it's in fact, a PRO-aromatase. These are chemicals or combinations of chemicals which either act as a replacement for aromatase, or which promotes the activity of the body's own already existing aromatase, or which promotes the production of more of the body's own aromatase. The best known pro-aromatase's are white peony and hops, though not a whole lot of research has been done on exactly HOW they promote aromatase, though it is assumed that they are not identical.
*EDIT*
Note: I have at times been accused of being more "scientific" among the male members of the board... I suppose this is probably true, but that's more because the science I know best is all the various ways in which one can go about the war with androgens.
I do my share of the research on the other aspects, but I am quite a bit more versed on fighting the androgens, largely because that's the one fight that I'm having the most difficulty winning. I was born with a tendency towards quite a LOT of androgen production.
22-02-2013, 07:14 AM
WOW, I for one am certainly impressed. The information available on this site is just extraordinary. I love you guys It seemed a lot simpler when I only took FG, SP and red clover. Now I’m on a steep learning curve as I move on to more serious decisions. I have had to start making myself notes so I can keep up with all the information that is available. I have had to address a lot of questions about who I am and where I'm going. I must admit that it has been pretty overwhelming at times. My PM shipment is due in a couple of days. I will continue on with the finasteride and tamulosin (for the BPH) but will stop the SP and FG. I’ll start my PM regimen with the 500 mg per day as most of you recommended. After a week I will re-evaluate my overall well-being and go from there. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences!
It seemed a lot simpler when I only took FG, SP and red clover. Now I’m on a steep learning curve as I move on to more serious decisions. I have had to start making myself notes so I can keep up with all the information that is available. I have had to address a lot of questions about who I am and where I'm going. I must admit that it has been pretty overwhelming at times. My PM shipment is due in a couple of days. I will continue on with the finasteride and tamulosin (for the BPH) but will stop the SP and FG. I’ll start my PM regimen with the 500 mg per day as most of you recommended. After a week I will re-evaluate my overall well-being and go from there. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences!
Sorry for the mistake 
. I had actually caught myself earlier on but made it again when I thought fit to expand the ARI acronym. At least it provided the benefit of some really useful background from Abi - thank you. The information on beta-sitosterol is particularly welcome. This whole area of endocrinology is hideously complex, and I tend to hesitate on the brink. But going into the lion's den again, beta-sitosterol is a plant sterol present in many herbs as well as PM, but there is very little in SP which has caused ridiculous statements by sellers of herbal remedies such as that SP is 300 times less effective than beta-sitosterol. Beta-sitosterol is also supposed to improve ones good/bad cholesterol ratio, allegedly a genetic weakness in my family. It seems to be true of most effective herbals (and pharmaceuticals) that they are effective for multiple apparently widely differenr and sometimes conflicting purposes. Cholestyramine was developed as a cholesterol control drug, but is rarely prescribed for that purpose these days. Forskolin has been suggested as another aromatase promoter, but probably isn't useful for that purpose.
. I had actually caught myself earlier on but made it again when I thought fit to expand the ARI acronym. At least it provided the benefit of some really useful background from Abi - thank you. The information on beta-sitosterol is particularly welcome. This whole area of endocrinology is hideously complex, and I tend to hesitate on the brink. But going into the lion's den again, beta-sitosterol is a plant sterol present in many herbs as well as PM, but there is very little in SP which has caused ridiculous statements by sellers of herbal remedies such as that SP is 300 times less effective than beta-sitosterol. Beta-sitosterol is also supposed to improve ones good/bad cholesterol ratio, allegedly a genetic weakness in my family. It seems to be true of most effective herbals (and pharmaceuticals) that they are effective for multiple apparently widely differenr and sometimes conflicting purposes. Cholestyramine was developed as a cholesterol control drug, but is rarely prescribed for that purpose these days. Forskolin has been suggested as another aromatase promoter, but probably isn't useful for that purpose.
22-02-2013, 10:56 AM
(22-02-2013, 10:07 AM)AnnabelP Wrote: Forskolin has been suggested as another aromatase promoter, but probably isn't useful for that purpose.
I've heard of it, but I don't honestly know a whole lot about forskolin. Pro-aromatase's in general are one avenue of research I really haven't pursued much. To be honest, that's because they're a woefully under-researched field among the REAL scientists. And I'm just a geek who knows how to find stuff that smarter minds figure out.
If I could be absolutely guaranteed that a given pro-aromatase is of the variety that promotes the production of aromatase, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat and drop BOTH estradiol AND chinese skullcap. Coaxing things onto a desired path is ALWAYS better than blocking the paths and then replacing.
Unfortunately, the REAL scientists are refusing to acknowledge that fact at this time. Not as much money in it.
22-02-2013, 09:55 PM
After re-reading the previous posts and trying to absorb it all, I can’t help wondering if there may be other benefits associated with PM that haven’t been discussed much. For example, AP mentioned medical advice that questioned whether Proscar (finasteride) is any better than SP for BPH. I have had two urologists and one internal medicine physician tell me that herbs and supplements don’t help for BPH. However, I always get the feeling that the medical community as a whole doesn’t really educate themselves regarding the uses of herbal remedies. As you know, in some males, Proscar has the side effects of breast development, softer skin and less body hair. I am one of those males who has benefitted from these side effects. That brings me to the question of the other potential added benefits of PM. If I don’t have serious side effect such as headaches, anxiety etc. etc. then I wonder if I could increase the PM dosage and get rid of the finasteride & tamulosin. If that were to be the case, then I might be able to attain additional breast enlargement and get rid of some unnecessary prescription pharmaceuticals at the same time. I’m bracing myself for the answer
23-02-2013, 01:14 AM
(22-02-2013, 09:55 PM)Circeena Wrote: After re-reading the previous posts and trying to absorb it all, I can’t help wondering if there may be other benefits associated with PM that haven’t been discussed much. For example, AP mentioned medical advice that questioned whether Proscar (finasteride) is any better than SP for BPH. I have had two urologists and one internal medicine physician tell me that herbs and supplements don’t help for BPH. However, I always get the feeling that the medical community as a whole doesn’t really educate themselves regarding the uses of herbal remedies. As you know, in some males, Proscar has the side effects of breast development, softer skin and less body hair. I am one of those males who has benefitted from these side effects. That brings me to the question of the other potential added benefits of PM. If I don’t have serious side effect such as headaches, anxiety etc. etc. then I wonder if I could increase the PM dosage and get rid of the finasteride & tamulosin. If that were to be the case, then I might be able to attain additional breast enlargement and get rid of some unnecessary prescription pharmaceuticals at the same time. I’m bracing myself for the answer
There shouldn't be a problem with taking as much PM in a day as you can afford. There is no known lethal dose in animal models. I would avoid taking any after 8pm, because it affects some people - me at least - if it concentrates overnight, in the form of lower back (kidney?) pain. I've found by trial and error that the mental benefits of 1g lasts me about 3 hours, so I assume all other effects last that long. Given that, the most that I have taken in a day without any ill effects have been about 7g (once) 6g (occasionally) 5g(often).
Regarding anxiety, there is a theory that fits my experience, that for many, gender dysphoria occurs due to an insufficent foetal exposure to androgen. In such individuals, estrogen and its mimics reduces anxiety and that is my main purpose for taking it. The same theory indicates that an increase in anxiety is due to a normally masculinised brain, and any desire to become/look like a female is due to other reasons. For such people hormone therapy would be a bad thing. You can find out more by googling Dr Ann Vitale and reading her essays on the topic.
Good luck,
Bryony
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