[bryony]

Bryony, keep us posted please, I'm in almost exactly the same situation, with the same concerns

Will do!

B.

[bryony]

Do you have a preference one way or the other for a male or female doctor/nurse?

Definitely female.

Out of curiosity, is there a major difference with how the UK and US healthcare treats conditions like gynecomastia when they are benign? I don't get why the doctor would make you see a specialist just for refusing treatment. Excluding individuals like us who want to grow breasts, I think there's plenty of reasons to refuse treatment: complications from surgery, side-effects from medication, etc.

I was thinking more along the lines of why I would not want to go through an investigation into the cause may give them cause for concern. (Medicine is nice in the US. You just find a doctor, make an appointment and give them a credit card and you are pretty much a client/customer. I had four years of that and it was great. Here, it's taxpayer funded, which should mean that I am a client/customer, but you sometimes get the impression that the government forgets that its our money, and its treated as a "benefit" - which it is, I suppose if you haven't paid as much tax as I have in the past. )

Anyway, here you only have one provider with records that follow you around, so if you get fed up and go somewhere else, the next team will know all about it, etc. I guess that's the main difference.

B.

[bryony]

Unfortunately, doctor visits, like discussions with wives and family, etc., are one of those things we tend not to really take seriously when we embark on NBE. So much easier to pigeonhole that until it rears its head.

True enough!

A lot of it can depend on your, and your doctors', attitude. And your doctors' attitude will depend to a large degree on your attitude. When her cursory exam revealed to her that something was not quite normal in the chest department, my response was not only a lack of real concern on my behalf, but I also went into a "humorous mode". A lighthearted comment such as "yeah, if things get any bigger, I'll have to get my wife to take me bra shopping", or "the next time my wife needs a mammogram, we'll get one together", can be disarming, and put the doctors mind at ease. I basically gave her the impression that having breasts was not high on my list of medical concerns. You, Bryony, have another thing working in your favor like I do, that being our age, at which time these sorts of things are kind of to be expected. Unless you're a marathoner.

That's good advice, I was kind of thinking along those lines, but I also need to think of contingencies.

I, personally, prefer to be seen by a female. it just seems to be easier to discuss all sorts of things with her.

me too!

Bryony, FWIW, there are many reasons that people take herbs. If you look at the expounded benefits claimed for PM, you should be able to develope a "reason" that you took it, should your doctors' enquiry even get that far. I'm pretty sure you'll be OK. If you have any questions, while I'm no expert, feel free to ask. Patti

Well, that is the main reason I do take them, but of course that leads into the cause of the problems that it alleviates and that is GID.

I just feel a bit uneasy about it all. Thanks for your helpful suggestions Patti!

B.

[bryony]

Bryony, no one will force you on to HRT. The worst that will happen is that you will be referred to the community mental health team who can only ASK you if you want to be referred to a GIC. No one can make you go.

Hello you! Nice to see you don't really want to stay away.

Well, I don't really want to go through the nausea of being referred to anyone really!

Only a GIC can prescribe hormones or anti-androgens and even when they do so, you can hear the squeals of your practice manager when he/she finds out that decapeptyl or goserelin is £200 a shot. Estradiol, OTOH is way, way cheaper than PM, about 1/3 the cost.

Ok, fine, but my black hat personality visualises scenarios where they say "stop taking that unapproved herbal stuff and take this controlled substance instead or we will wash our hands of you!"

but equally I don't want to get labelled as someone who indulges in risky behaviour.

But you ARE indulging in risky behaviour. There are no clinical studies that show PM is harmless although there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that it is harmless. The big danger with HRT is blood clots. What evidence is there that PM does not produce clots or has some other side effect that does not show up for some years?

Well, if you knew me better you'd know just how risk averse I really am. That's why I want to stick to PM and not go on to pharm. hormones.
As for evidence, there's this:FDA Document If you have a look at the safety section, you'll see that it's very safe indeed.

How can anyone trust the manufacturing process out in Thailand? How does anyone know that there is PM in those capsules? They could just be grinding up Progynova and mixing it with rice powder for all we know. That would produce feminising effects....

Seriously, that's a problem that applies anywhere, anytime... had any frozen burgers lately?

I can only assume it is the real deal, and there is research that shows that it is safer than Estriadol. I can find the links if you want.

Your doctor may not like you self medding but they cannot refuse you treatment for any health conditions, not even self inflicted ones.

I know, but it's still something that I'd prefer to avoid.

Thanks for your thoughts, though. How are you getting on?

B.

[MonikaT]

As for evidence, there's this:FDA Document If you have a look at the safety section, you'll see that it's very safe indeed.

I just finished reading that document. Knowing how much the US FDA is little more than a rubber stamp for the major pharmaceutical companies, and knowing how much the FDA hates dietary supplements, I'm somewhat amazed at the general tone that PM is no big deal. After all, L-Tryptophan was pulled off the market right around the time Prozac and other SSRIs came to market. Why take an expensive prescription pharmaceutical when an inexpensive, over-the-counter substance can do much the same thing?

[Marina Kits]

Bryony, FWIW, there are many reasons that people take herbs. If you look at the expounded benefits claimed for PM, you should be able to develope a "reason" that you took it, should your doctors' enquiry even get that far. I'm pretty sure you'll be OK. If you have any questions, while I'm no expert, feel free to ask. Patti

I agree with PattiJT. I don’t want anyone to get the impression that I think bending the truth is fine, on the contrary, I hold honesty in the highest regard. That being said, if I’m in this situation some day, I will probably explain that I’m taking phytoestrogenic herbs because they help ease my gender dysphoria anxiety (assuming PM helps me that way). The secondary reason I’d take them is because I want to grow feminine breasts but I wouldn’t mention that to my doctor. Although he wouldn’t know the entire truth, he’d know all the practical facts he needs as my physician and that the side effects are acceptable to me. My ulterior motives are irrelevant. If that’s not “true” for anyone else, I wouldn’t advocate using it as an explanation.

[Lenneth]

(Medicine is nice in the US. You just find a doctor, make an appointment and give them a credit card and you are pretty much a client/customer. I had four years of that and it was great. Here, it's taxpayer funded, which should mean that I am a client/customer, but you sometimes get the impression that the government forgets that its our money, and its treated as a "benefit" - which it is, I suppose if you haven't paid as much tax as I have in the past. )

Not quite the same anymore, more and more Doctors lately have been butting their nose into parts of peoples business that they have no call or right to.

Part of it has been linked to the new "Healthcare Tax" that the government is imposing on everyone, some of what I have read in it more or less puts absurd penalties on doctors for "Not Reporting" "anything that could possibly be considered a mental issue" of their patients to the Government.

I can see getting the mentally ill the help they need, but when I go to get antibiotics to help kill a flu or something, I don't care for a GP to pull a Sigmund Freud asking completely off the wall questions about things not only completely unrelated but none of their business...

(Went to in with Strep Throat recently, got asked what color my bedsheets were, and if I owned any weapons....I wish I was Joking...)

[sorry for the small rant]

[PattiJT]

Oh, where to start! My comment that people take herbs for many reasons was supposed to be a hint, (a poor one, I guess), that there are feasible reasons to give a physician (assuming the gyno or breast subject is even broached) for your herbal consumption. People don't JUST take ginseng as an aphrodisiac. It has other benefits.

Let's see, PM is supposed to: 1. Be an anti-colon and anti-prostate cancer agent. 2. Make skin appear smoother and younger. 3. Reduce wrinkles. 4. Reduce appearance of cellulite. 5. Improve blood circulation. 6. Increase energy and sexual vitality. 7. Strengthen nails and hair. There may be more, but that list takes about 1 minute to compile from the internet. Could it be possible, say, that you have a friend that is a bit of a natural health nut, and that said friend recommended PM to you for any number of the supposed benefits of PM? (Hey, if you can't trust a friend)? Or, you yourself were looking on-line for something of a non-pharmaceutical nature that posesses anti-aging properties, and lo and behold guess what popped up? Any number of reasonable constructs would be possible.

Again, honestly being desireable, you'd be telling the truth, just not the whole truth. Willing to go that route to save embarassment? Still 100% better than any politician I know. AND, all this assumes that the doctor notices something, (are there really that few older men in the UK with man-boobs)? AND assuming they mention man-boobs, just how deeply will they delve into the issue. If one really wants to fall on ones' "gender dysphoria" sword right out of the gate, then "good luck to ya". You may, possibly, get lucky. More likely it will be downhill a ways. All I'm saying is that with all the agonizing over what could result from a GD revelation, "why go there if ya doesn't have to"?? On the other hand, if one wants to flaunt ones' development, then stick your neck way out and just do it. While I'm at it, does PM, or any of the other concoctions some people here take, even stand a chance of showing up in any blood tests a doctor may order?? I doubt it, (unless some of that horsemeat was laced with estrogens). That was only a joke.

I'm curious. A number of the folks here express the opinion that they are GD. Is that a good thing to them, or a concern? Or is it an excuse to grow boobs? We have to be honest with ourselves as well as our docs. Is it a case of "I am GD, but I'm cool with it"? Or is it a case of "I am GD and it's driving me up a wall"? If it's driving you up a wall, then for sanities' sake, take it up with a doctor. You're only delaying the inevitable.

Yes, there are some here who have had the GD issue lessened, or largely eliminated, by taking PM. However, for those that do, but throw in a few other herbs along with the PM, Let's be honest, you're doing it for the boobs. I have also seen, that some felt their GD issue was solved with 1 gram/day of PM. (Whoopee, I'm no longer a crossdresser, or no longer having trans thoughts)!! Then it became 2 grams to solve it. Then it became 3 grams. Where does that stop?? Or, has it also "become more about the boobs"?

Long again. I'm a bit surprised to see this thread get so far without veering massively off-track. Take care, all. Patti

[PattiJT]

Well, doc, my sheets are earth-tones, but I'll let you know the exact color after I wash them and see what's left.

[beverley.rose]

Hello you! Nice to see you don't really want to stay away.

I like to pop back and see how you are all doing from time to time. I stay away because I have little to contribute. My viewpoint is totally different from most of you because my objective is so different, but I like to see how people I once interacted with here are getting along.

Well, I don't really want to go through the nausea of being referred to anyone really!

Why are you so worried about it?

If they refer you, go see the shrink and tell him you have Gender Dysphoria and this is how you are dealing with it. Tell him that this method works for you and that you do not wish to transition and you do not want a GIC appointment. He will then update your records to indicate you have GD and no doctor will bother you again. However at future GP appointments they will note from your records that you have GD and it means that they will not ask embarrassing questions and because you know that they know you would be less embarrassed.

Ok, fine, but my black hat personality visualises scenarios where they say "stop taking that unapproved herbal stuff and take this controlled substance instead or we will wash our hands of you!"

Take your black hat off and burn it. Doctors even care for Heroine and Cocaine addicts. You think they will boot you out for herbs?

Well, if you knew me better you'd know just how risk averse I really am. That's why I want to stick to PM and not go on to pharm. hormones.

That is just rationalising - finding reasons to support your beliefs. No one really knows what is in the capsules. However I can offer one thread of hope - when I had my initial blood panel done for the GIC I was on PM and nothing showed up in the "estradiol" section so whatever they put in is not estradiol. Who knows? It might even be PM ;-)

Seriously, that's a problem that applies anywhere, anytime... had any frozen burgers lately?

Yes, I bought some from Tescos yesterday

Thanks for your thoughts, though. How are you getting on?

Well enough thank you. My social transition is complete and I am just getting on with life whilst my body catches up with me. My former self is gone forever and I am happier. I have kept my old friends and made many new ones. Life is good, better than it has ever been.