[SilviaTX]

So I am taking the plunge and have carefully read various personal programs. AbiDrew's program is very well researched (the later postings) and i feel it is a good starting point for me to modify for my needs (i do not have hypertension).

My question is how do I get Progynova (Estradiol Valerate)? This is a pharma product and not strictly NBE. I found a UK site that will sell and ship via informed consent so is that what many do?

Thanks and kisses,
Sylvia

[SarahSchilling]

I just ordered some from very likely the same website. I can't tell you if it'll work out yet though.

Abidrew is moving this stuff, she's their number 1 saleswoman lol

[bryony]

Yeesh! "Not strictly" NBE? Strictly UBE! You really ought to be doing this through a medical practitioner / therapist.

Blood clots, strokes etc. This stuff is _dangerous_!

If we're going to be encouraging this, I don't see the point of keeping the word "Natural" in the title of the forum.

B.

[AbiDrew85]

So I am taking the plunge and have carefully read various personal programs. AbiDrew's program is very well researched (the later postings) and i feel it is a good starting point for me to modify for my needs (i do not have hypertension).

My question is how do I get Progynova (Estradiol Valerate)? This is a pharma product and not strictly NBE. I found a UK site that will sell and ship via informed consent so is that what many do?

Thanks and kisses,
Sylvia

I just ordered some from very likely the same website. I can't tell you if it'll work out yet though.

Abidrew is moving this stuff, she's their number 1 saleswoman lol

I really can't tell you, at least not on this forum at all, where I get mine from, since it is technically illegal in the US any which way you slice it to get hormones without a prescription.

I can tell you it's not the UK. But if you've found a supplier you'd be comfortable with, and they happen to be in the UK, I don't see why not. It's probably a safer way to go than who I -AM- getting it through, which is in the Orient somewhere.

[SarahSchilling]

Yeesh! "Not strictly" NBE? Strictly UBE! You really ought to be doing this through a medical practitioner / therapist.

Blood clots, strokes etc. This stuff is _dangerous_!

If we're going to be encouraging this, I don't see the point of keeping the word "Natural" in the title of the forum.

B.

I'm going to get bloodwork done before starting on it, if that makes you feel any better.

Probably need to anyway, just because of the inbalances any estrogenic substances could cause.

And, abidrew, I meant just the brand of Progynova more than any particular website. I'd be happy to email you the link if you want to compare prices though.

[AbiDrew85]

Yeesh! "Not strictly" NBE? Strictly UBE! You really ought to be doing this through a medical practitioner / therapist.

Blood clots, strokes etc. This stuff is _dangerous_!

If we're going to be encouraging this, I don't see the point of keeping the word "Natural" in the title of the forum.

B.

I'm sorry, but if by "UBE" you mean "unnatural", then no, you're wrong. Yes it's pharma. But that's because it's hormones in a concentrated enough form that the FDA has made them a "controlled" substance.

It's not "drugs". It's natural estradiol, just as it's valerate, which splits in the blood into pure estradiol and valeric acid, which is the acid that's added to the estradiol to make it a valerate. Valeric acid is also a completely naturally occurring chemical. And their combination, while not naturally occurring, isn't "strictly unnatural".

Shoot. The guys part of the forums is under "Related Subjects" wherein lies another topic as well: "Breast Implants and other Surgery" which WOULD be "strictly unnatural."

Yes, a doctor would be best for this sort of thing. But not all of us can afford them. A supervising doctor would be best for ANY NBE imo. Doesn't change the fact that I can't afford one.

Also, "blood clots, strokes, etc" is a bit much. It increases the risks of DVT, a specific type of blood clot that COULD, as all blood clots can, lead to stroke... But it's only an "increased risk" for DVT, and DVT doesn't directly and necessarily immediately mean stroke. And there's been no equivalent study done on phyto's, so for all we know we could be doing the same kind of thing there.

For that matter... The ONLY study done AT ALL about estrogens and increased risk of DVT was done as regards to Premarin. Which is conjugated equine estrogens. The makers of Premarin when they couldn't silence the results of that study, then pushed very successfully, to brand all estrogen as identical with identical risk patterns.

It's only very recently that new studies have begun to be done which are beginning to indicate that "common knowledge" as pushed by the makers of Premarin, was in fact completely erroneous and estrogens are NOT all created equal, and will do very different things.

[chrishoney]

Just a minor correction: estradiol in any form is NOT a controlled substance. Estradiol is merely regulated and it is also NOT illegal to import it or possess it under current US law. You can check out this page on the US Department of Justice website for a list of exempt anabolic steroid products:

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/21cfr/...08_34a.htm

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't use estradiol valerate, but there's a ton of info on where to buy this online, and which off-shore pharmacies ship to which countries. But honestly, if you haven't taken the time to search that out (it has even been discussed in the past right here in this forum!), then I wonder if you have seriously researched the effects and possible side effects of what you are proposing to do.

While I agree with AbiDrew that bryony is being a bit dramatic and is somewhat misinformed with regard to the actual risks, it is still serious stuff. You will be messing with and possibly permanently changing your endocrine system. Are you prepared for that and for being on it for the rest of your life? Just some things to consider.

[bryony]

Abi,

First off let me explain that I am not directly criticising your decision to experiment with self-medicated hormones. My concern is for others, like me, driven here through GD, who, seeing casual discussions of self-medication, will assume it is safe enough and go that route directly. There are two good reasons to discourage this: first is safety, and the other is that using PM (which is safer), may be sufficient to alleviate the GD symptoms.

So, to address your comments:

I'm sorry, but if by "UBE" you mean "unnatural", then no, you're wrong. Yes it's pharma. But that's because it's hormones in a concentrated enough form that the FDA has made them a "controlled" substance.

What you are saying is that the drug is bioidentical to that occuring in a female body. It will still have been synthesised though, and it is regulated, because it is potentially dangerous.

Natural to me means, I suppose, that in addition to being something you can harvest, that it is readily available, over the counter, and not dangerous.

It's not "drugs". It's natural estradiol, just as it's valerate, which splits in the blood into pure estradiol and valeric acid, which is the acid that's added to the estradiol to make it a valerate. Valeric acid is also a completely naturally occurring chemical. And their combination, while not naturally occurring, isn't "strictly unnatural".

Semantics... a drug is not a food and it is used for medical treatment (look up drugs and pharmaceuticals in wiki). As per the "D" in FDA...

Shoot. The guys part of the forums is under "Related Subjects" wherein lies another topic as well: "Breast Implants and other Surgery" which WOULD be "strictly unnatural."

I agree - but so is any surgery. Once you start on a real transition, then everything becomes unnatural. I wouldn't contemplate it (if I were able to) without planning for extensive facial surgery.

I presume the forum was started for women, and they use "Related Subjects" for everything other than Natural Breast Enlargement for Women.

I'd argue that the men's forum should be under a different level. Maybe there should be a separate sub-forum for DIY Hormone Gamblers, like there is over at Cheryl's.

Yes, a doctor would be best for this sort of thing. But not all of us can afford them. A supervising doctor would be best for ANY NBE imo. Doesn't change the fact that I can't afford one.

Can you imagine where that kind of thinking goes? Self prescribed antibiotics springs to mind.

Maybe it comes from living somewhere where medicine is only available for the wealthy, but it doesn't make it right.

Also, "blood clots, strokes, etc" is a bit much. It increases the risks of DVT, a specific type of blood clot that COULD, as all blood clots can, lead to stroke... But it's only an "increased risk" for DVT, and DVT doesn't directly and necessarily immediately mean stroke.

But that increased risk is exactly why it is regulated by the FDA and requires blood work, check-ups, possible orchiectomies, all that sort of thing.

What about these side-effects?
Side Effects

Yes, they may well cause those effects with a small percentage of the population, but that's exactly why a doctor is required to prescribe.

And there's been no equivalent study done on phyto's, so for all we know we could be doing the same kind of thing there.

Actually there have been studies on PM - look up Google Scholar. It's an incredibly safe food that contains a bioidentical from of Estriol, the weakest and safest Estrogen - actually seems to protect women from the estroges that cause breast cancer. Look it up.

To my mind there is a reason why this forum was founded and that is to try to grow or enhance breasts without the use of dangerous drugs (dangerous because unsupervised, if you like).

I'm sorry if my disagreement upsets you, but I find this experimenting with regulated drugs to be very risky behaviour; there is a yahoo group that specialises in risk taking: groups.yahoo.com/group/TsDoItYourselfHormones

Obviously, this is only my opinion, but I explained in the opening why I made an issue of it.

Bryony

PS Chrishoney, I'd rather be dramatic and risk averse than hospitalised. Actual risks, by their very nature are hard to quantify, and often wrongly stated on the basis of clinical studies that can be and sometimes are skewed. That's why drugs get withdrawn. I worked for a pharmaceutical for 20 years and saw several drugs get withdrawn due to unforeseen adverse effects.

[bryony]

Hi Sarah,

I'm going to get bloodwork done before starting on it, if that makes you feel any better.

It would, if I knew you were going to tell the doctor what you were going to do.... are you?

Bryony the mother hen, it seems.

[AbiDrew85]

While I agree with AbiDrew that bryony is being a bit dramatic and is somewhat misinformed with regard to the actual risks, it is still serious stuff. You will be messing with and possibly permanently changing your endocrine system. Are you prepared for that and for being on it for the rest of your life? Just some things to consider.

I was and am going to have to be "on" something for the rest of my life anyways as a full TS. It might not remain as the particular combination I'm using now, but there'll always be something.

I agree though that this REALLY isn't for everyone... And if you do go down this path you'd better be absolutely certain you're going down it for all the right reasons and none of the wrong ones.